Both Owl and Lemonman hit on something here. When Lemonman talked about the gradually increasing the consequences of the crossing of boundaries, he has it right on. Also, i nthis quote I have here from Lemonman, it is too often that BSs do not escalate the consequences. Thus we have cake eating...and boundaries that mean nothing. If you are going to have boundaries, you are going to have to defend them.

But just because you have nuclear weapons doesnt mean you use them right away. There can be a gradual increasing of the pain until they either comply....or you reach the nuclear threshold. Just as Lemonman suggested above.

What keeps this working (Plan A) is that it is for a LIMITED time. You cannot sustain a true Plan A indefinitely while an ongoing affair exists. The BS will run out of strength. And the WS will begin to see no boundaries at all. Thus, after that period of time outlined by the Harleys, and when the BS feels he/she has escalated things to the point where there is no other choice...then Plan B is intiated. THEN, the BSs boundaries have to be enforced. Because the boundaries have changed.

Instead of "you cannot see OM anymore..." it is now "you cannot see me anymore." And that boundary can be enforced 100%!!! It is the nuclear option. Negotiations are over. The only thing that can "save" the WS and the marriage is total surrender, total giving in to the surrender terms as outlined i nthe Plan B letter. There is no negotiations at this point. As many have done here, the WS calls and the BS immediately says "Have you met the conditions of my letter?" and the WS says no. And the BS says "Well, I have nothing to talk about until you are ready to meet those conditions." And then they hang up. Boundaries!!!

But in Plan A, the boundaries have to be enforced thru negotiation and through making the crisis deeper and deeper for the WS.

Oh, by the way Lemonman...thanks for responding. You are bringing up some very good points for this guy!

In His arms.

This is brilliant Lemonman. It is exactly what we are trying to do here, in a very succinct package. You should leave this up for all who dont quite get it. Because, this paragraph rolls it up very nicely.

In His arms.

Mortar:

I think the nuclear weapons analogy you and A make is good. I think the crux of the issue here is that the original poster needs to understand that he is not going to be able to STRICTLY enforce his BOUNDARIES in plan A. That is just a fact of the matter. Just as you said, the 100% enforcement of this boundary comes in PLAN B. I hope that this thread has become enlightening for the poster who started it. I am learning alot also.

SOur... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Me too!! And I think we are saying the same thing, just with a slightly different meaning.

When I say enforcement of the boundary, that can come in many ways, as you eluded to above. Like my dog. When I first got him, I of course had a boundary that he must go outside or go on the newspaper. Of course, being a puppy, he failed miserably. How did I enforce that? Did I go nuclear and get rid of the dog for its non-compliance? Or did I enforce the boundary a different way?

Instead of getting rid of the dog after it disobeyed, I instead disciplined it. Not so much at first. And as it began to do better, I rewarded him. But when he made mistakes, the punsihment got more severe. Eventually, the dog no longer needed this approach, as it had learned to behave in the proper manner.

This is not that much different. The WS does not know how to behave. They just dont. Well, they "know" but they dont "do." So, each time they cross that boundary, you gradually increase the pain. Each time they stay inside the boundary, you reward them. Rewards can come from showing the WS how you have changed, showing them and giving them a family they can come home to, etc.

Eventually, if my dog had not "gotten it" I would have had to do something about it as I cant have him pooping all over my house.

And eventually, if the WS does not respond, then the BS has to go "nuclear" and then defend the boundary as we all define "defense."

Hope that helps.

In His arms.

Buying time is definitely one of the negotiating ploys of Plan A. It is not so much a goal as a strategy. We are (usually) dealing with people in negotiations over As. Time is always of the essence.

Time for BS to get up to speed and get the WS’s attention (in good ways, not LB ways).

Time for the WS to assess their own situation before the nukes are launched.

WOW! Now that is a response. You have given me the clearest picture yet of how I am supposed to be acting. I have actually been doing well so far. I really like the part about stepping up the crisis each offense. I will concentrate on that.
I went to the OM's and knocked on the door. He had a look of shock and fear on his face. Plobably though I was going to kill him. This definitely stepped up the crisis, but was painful because she didn't come with me. But I know it made her feel bad. At least for a while.

Today I communicated how little respect she is showing for me right now. I think it hit home. I went to get breakfast and when I got back, she gave me a hug all of the sudden.

I will take your advice to heart LM and MM. This really is what I needed to hear. Thank you for your time.

LM said: “If one is in real recovery and a recovery boundary is obviously NC, and this is broken with clear and deliberate contact...what should be the enforcement or consequence there? I am very curious to hear your response. I get from many here, that the response WHEN ALL SAID AND DONE would not be a whole hell of a lot different than if in Plan A and in the situation above.

This place is notorious for giving and encouraging a hundred second chances, all guised under the cover of addiction, aliens or neurotransmitters, so would this be any different?”


I’m multi-tasking with a phone jack stuck in my ear. Pardon any incomplete thoughts. Consider this just a starting response to your question.

Yes it is different. Recovery, IMO, is a different ball game from negotiating the end of the A. It’s an entirely different playing field, in fact. A lot harder game, too.

Your hypothesis, all too common in reality, is called false recovery. We both went through false recoveries, didn’t we? It’s something that needs to be considered by all BS, I think, right from the start. The BS needs to know their limits as best they can before entering the endeavor.

False recoveries are incredibly difficult for a BS to deal with rationally. Dynamics are so different in each and every marriage I cannot dictate the reactions anyone else should undergo. In my case, it was harder, much more painful, to experience and decide how to deal with it than D-Day 1.

I my case I did not know about MB at D-Day 1. I didn’t read SAA until a few months after D-Day 2. But, I am certain there would have been no false recovery, no D-Day 2, if I had these same tools, exposure in particular, back then.

I believe now, after using all the various MB tools, including recovery tools such as Rule of Protection, POJA, Radical Honesty and Retrouvaille for a year or so now that I will not let myself go through this again.

I was about to D when I read SAA and came to MB. So I was prepared for the worst. I no longer have the same fears I had then. This makes a big difference to me. My boundaries are much more fixed than they used to be.

I agonized a lot back then, understatement of the week, whether I even wanted to recover. A ten year LTA seemed too big on the face of it. Still does at times. So I am watching my boundaries very carefully and living week to week.

What will I do if a boundary is crossed? My reaction to breaking NC, specifically, will depend on the break. Accidental contact, with FWW telling me the truth as she has agreed will not cause a negative reaction from me. Perhaps I will help her implement more protection to prevent it again.

On the other end of the spectrum, intentional long term contact with lying again will precipitate D papers.

In between? It depends.

Behind all this are a lot of rational and irrational and totally emotional continuously percolating little mini-decisions that add up to my current, but fairly stable, state of mind.

For example, DS was devastated when W moved out the day after D-Day 2. He has spent 16 months with a child psychologist because of the problems W’s A created for him. Minimizing further effects on him is always a top priority. His welfare is a constraint on my actions I willing accept.

As another example, I thoroughly resent having to live this way. It will be a major factor in any decisions I have to make regarding NC problems that might occur in the future.

I will close for now with a quote from one of Dr H’s articles that can be found here on MB:

“When a couple goes through a recovery after an affair, and then experience another affair, the resentment is often more intense and more persistent after the second recovery. With multiple affairs and recoveries, resentment is almost impossible to overcome. But then, in those cases I usually feel that the emotional reaction of resentment is not irrational at all. Emotions are telling the person that it's not a good idea to continue the relationship, and I would agree.”

It is my resentment level I monitor now. My canary in the coal mine.

With prayers,

LM & DKM

I asked the same question many times early in plan A. And since in fact.

This is what I have come to believe.

There are 'tiers' of boundaries. There are some "like to be treated" boundaries, which are not showstoppers if persistently violated and there are non negotiable boundaries that ARE showstoppers if persistently violated.

Doing or not doing THIS thing or THAT thing for me were 'like to' boundaries.
"If you attend that event where OM will NOT be but which triggers me It will hurt me very knowingly and deliberately".
( But I will reconise you are foggy because of my studies of affair dynamics and that will inform my response). they aren't really boundaries IMO. They're game rules not boundaries.

However I had three non negotiable boundaries:
1. NC for ever
2. Protect me from harm
3. Work on recovery

When Squid violate dthese soon after d-day I said a thing that was extremely effective, and a turning point in our recovery:
"Why are you home? You said you would work on our marriage but all you do is make selfish choices that humilate me time after time.

I will not shackle you to me.
I will work on this marriage with you if you want me to, but I will not force you.
I will only work on this marriage if you respect my very reasonable boundaries.

I love you, I want you but I do not "need" you. I do not need anyone who would humiliate me by choice.
So think carefully about what you want. I want you but not at the price of my self respect."

She stormed out of the house to attend Karate class. I was terrified and dry heaved all evening. She came back later that evening transformed. Would I like a beeer ? Yes please. Anything good on TV. Not really, Law & Order. Good Class ? Yes thanks.
Oh, BTW, I do want you to work on our marriage. Help me unerstand how I can stop hurting you.

So in summary I think that inviolable boundary enforement HAS to take into account the potentially unstable mental and emotional condition of the WS during and right after their affair.
But boundaries are things you chose not to live without. the only enforement of them is to allow the non-conforming WS to leav eof they do not wish to abide by your boundaries.

THAT what boundaries are so freakin' hard to police - because its scary telling a WS at home to go if they so not respect your boundaries. But like I said thats either important enough to you so to do or it isn't.

In plan A you have to meet EN and avoid LBs but i don;t read anywhere that you have to allow abuse. I wa sprepared to lose Squid ove rmy fundamental boundaries and she realised it even through fog.

Now, a year after d-day, we poja most stuff so even the 'tier 2' rules get respected. By me too.

my $0.02

[/quote]I am still plan Aing, but it has gotten difficult. I set boundaries, WW continually jumps right over them. How do you enforce them? ....snip....How do enforce boundaries without going to plan B? Any thread links or advice would be appreciated.[/quote]

Dear DontKnowMuch ~ I know I am late to the party here, but I want to chime in with my perspective.

How do you enforce a boundary? Like trying to get your wife to stop contacing OM?

You can't. It's completely utterly impossible - even in recovery. (is that good enough for you Mr Sour? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" /> )

And not only that, it's not boundary.

Setting boundaries require that you change

Selfish demands require the other person to change.

Right now, you are trying to get your wife to change so that you can be happy.


This is not a boundary. This is a selfish demand.

A boundary is something along the lines of: I choose not to continue to participate in a relationship of three. (Plan B or Plan D).


This is not enforcement of a boundary. This is openness and honesty on your part. Your pain is a direct consequence of her choice to have an affair. Your job is to allow her to experience the consequences of her choices.

The problem here, is that when you tell her of your pain, you expect a specific outcome. And thats where you are getting disappointed and hurt.

Plan A requires that you drop your expectations of any type of outcome.

Plan A is where you take responsiblity for your part in the condition of the marriage that led to the affair becoming a possibility.

Plan A is where you demonstrate with your actions (negotiate) what you are willing to bring to the marriage if and when the affair ends.

You demonstrate your willingness to be a good husband by meeting emotional needs and by identifying and rectifying any and all lovebusters.

And while in Plan A, the BS chooses temporarily to not draw a boundary with regards to the affair, the BS can and should draw many other boundaries.

A BS can and should protect their children from exposure to the OP.

A BS can and should protect family finances and property.

A BS can and should take legal steps if necessary to ensure financial support by the WS.

These are all boundaries and also natural consequences of the WS's choice to have an affair.

Exposure is another boundary a BS can chose to enforce.

This boundary says: I choose not to participate in your affair by keeping silent about it.

See the difference? The BS does NOT say: WS, you must tell about your affair. The BS says, *I* will not be silent.

Contact with the OP is devastating to a BS. This is why the Harleys recommend a SHORT Plan A, because without protection (a boundary), this contact is horribly harmful to the BS, and to the possible recovery of the marriage.

A long time ago, I had a friend on this board, who was so horribly devastated by her husbands affair, that Steve Harley sent her straight to Plan B, no Plan A at all.

Anyone on this board who is practicing a long term Plan A, is not doing MB. Long term Plan A is not marriage building, it is enabling and I think, honestly, ensures the failure of the marriage to recover. Plain and simple.

When you have finished demonstrating what you plan to bring to the marital recovery if your wife chooses to end the affair, you go to Plan B. That's your boundary.

Plan A says, I love you and I am willing to change to protect you from myself. (There's your negotiation offer. Now its up to your spouse to choose to accept it - or not).

Plan A does not enable the affair. Plan A allows the WS to cake eat for a very short time while the negotiation is being laid out on the table. However, Plan A should NOT protect the WS from ANY OTHER consequence of the affair.

Plan B says, I choose not to particpate in a relationship with you while there is a third person.

See? Your action, to protect you.

And I have to disagree with the comment about boundaries belonging to recovery.

NO. Absolutely not. In a Marriage Building marriage there are no boundaries.

In general, every individual is responsible for protecting him/herself from harm. In a marriage, each spouse is responsible for protecting the other from themselves.

It will never be your job to ENFORCE your wife's NC. If you achieve recovery, it will be your wife's responsiblity to enforce NC with the OM. It will be your wife's job to protect you. And your job will be to protect HER from your lovebusters.

The boundary is drawn around you both as a couple, NOT between you.

This is why it is essential to have a marriage coach while doing Plan A and Plan B.

In my situation, Steve Harley told my husband what he had to do in order to get back into our marriage. Steve told me NOT to make a list of demands (such as NC letter, email passwords..etc).

So my husband was able to come to the negotiating table with a volunteer list of things he would do to regain my trust. He was not conceding to my demands, he was offering what he needed to offer to be married to me.

It's a subtle distinction, but a critical one for recovery.

EXCELLENT! I love this post! Thank you Bramblerose.

I have to highlight this! (So many times I see the BS/WS in the jailer/prisoner roles and it does not promote loving feelings ~ "You will wear this ankle bracelet!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> )



Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

edited to add: I got so excited when I read this post. I'm sorry this part does not deal with boundaries during Plan A, but I still think it is very important. Threadjack over!

Oh...and one more thing....

Rarely does a BS execute Plan A with the result being that the WS immediately responds enthusiastically and positively towards the BSes desire for NC and marital recovery.

This lack of enthusiasm by the WS should NOT ever be considered a "failure of negotiation". To say that Plan A failed because the BS didn't immediately achieve success at ending the affair is truely the result of a pretty unrealistic expectation.

Plan A shows the WS what you are willing to offer, and what the WS is going to lose....and Plan B says you are darn serious.

It takes both - plus the tarnishing of the affair relationship - which usually takes time longer than Plan A!.

Don't know much:

Sounds like you got the info you were looking for. Goodluck in all of this.

Sour....

Brabblerose:

Although I PERSONALLY DO NOT agree with everything that you say in your post, I think it was still a great post and certainly conveys what the principles are here that people are trying to learn.

Sour...

BR
Great post ! Boundaries are about what I will toelrate, nand in no way directly affect Squid. She can choose to respect them or not, and I can can choose to remain in a relationship where such are violated or not.

Also I made LOTS of what you may call Selfish Demands but presented them as requests.
"Please don't do this and see OM as it deliberately humilate sme in a way I feel I do not deserve. I cannot tolerate this humilation for long".

Is THAT a selfish demand ? if so I made loads of them ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I disagree however that there are no personal boundaries in an MB marriage.

I believe that self respect is essential in all healthy human relationships and personal boundaries set defense lines to them

Plan B serves to prevent these boundaries being disregarded via the deliberate ignorance of their violation.

The problems in my marriage started when I DID NOT police my personal boundaries and I allowed myself to be treated disrespectfully by Squid and avoided conflict over it.

That won't happen again.

I would also point out that not all marriage coaches or counsellors are worth a dime. I spoke to four in the UK, and only one was remotely pro-marriage.

Anyone want to set up a practice in the UK ? SERIOUSLY !!

Great posts BR Thanks !

Hi Lemon ~

If it doesn't threadjack to badly - I'm curious to know what you disagree with!

Hi Bob ~


I think you and I are probably just in disagreement over terms!


Yep. Completely agree.


Yes. This is a boundary - a good example of when a boundary is right in a marriage. We are still agreeing here! =)


I understand what you mean, and outside of the context of a marriage that is based on marriage builder concepts, I agree. I would also say that the a similar thing happens in alot of marriages pre-marriage builders.

I suspect though, that this idea of protecting your own personal boundaries, which is the accepted healthy way of being married in our society does alot of damage. It pits spouses against each other.

Once you understand the MB concepts, should the same situation occur, you will have to say that your giver and taker got out of balance, and that you, Bob, failed to practice radical honesty and failed to practice POJA, because you agreed to behaviors in your marriage that you didnt' enthusiastically agree with!

In a marriage where there are not 2 healthy people...like mine for instance...as I am married to an alcoholic...personal boundaries are necessary to keep myself safe.

However, in a marriage with 2 normal healthy people, where BOTH agree that the marriage is based on marriage builder concepts (which is why we are here right?)...you should not have to police your personal boundaries with Squid.

Boundaries are what we use to protect ourselves.

In a MB marriage, that is Squid's job to protect YOU. Squid's job is to make sure that you are never harmed by her actions. Your responsiblity is to ensure that your behavior never harms Squid. Radical Honesty is used to communicate to each other so that you both KNOW what harms (lovebusts) the other. Harley's point is that if you are protecting yourself from Squid, then you have a barrier between you and Squid, which is not good for the marriage.

Steve Harley made that one pretty clear to me!

When one spouse stops protecting the other, and stops practicing POJA by doing something like having an affair....thats when personal boundaries need to be used. I don't for a second think that a BS (or a WS) should simply allow themselves to be harmed in a marriage.

We each as individuals ultimately have the sole responsiblity of keeping ourselves safe. Boundaries are what we use to do that, and I think that if one spouse does not or can not POJA, then boundaries are not only appropriate, but necessary.

But while POJA is safely in place and both are using MB concepts in their marriage, your spouses safety is your concern, instead of your own.

Anothe great post. Cut & pasted onto my C drive ! thanks !

Interesting that you remind me that Squid should be responsible for my safety from harm from her actions. I'm nowhere near being that vulnerable to her again yet.

Doing well,with far to go.

thanks again !

BR,

I agree with 97% of what you write.

I especially agree with boundaries are what we use to protect ourselves.

I think where I see a difference is related to the kind of personal boundaries required and where they have to be placed being married to an unhealthy/unstable spouse.

My boundaries and their implementation are consistent with what will protect me in a very non-average situation. She has absolutely no concept of spouse protection – she finds the idea ludicrous.

Hence, as with your alcoholic H, boundaries, sensors and trip wires are all over the place in my early recovery. My situation definitly colors the way I use the term, boundry.


One other thing: Dr H specifically writes that Plan A is a negotiation strategy to end the affair. Those are his words.

That the negotiations usually fail and a demonstration of consequences (Plan B) is required is the normal expectation. I think that should be presented up front to everyone who comes here.

this is one of my favorite threads ... carry on

Good stuff. I was going to say something about knowing the difference between controlling your spouse and controlling yourself but it appears MM and BR have covered that quite nicely above.

You cannot control your spouse. Any boundary enforcement action that has such as its goal immediately tells you that it's not really a "personal boundary" but more a "selfish demand".

Low

Thank you all for your responses. There is so much information to digest. This thread has definitely changed the way I look at my plan A. I love this place.