I have some serious orthopedic disorders resulting from an injury. I live with pain daily.

Did I like what I was before the accident? Yes, more than now. I'd like to have the old uninjured joints back.

I can never have them back. So I'm faced with a choice. Do I seek to live my life in triumph despite my injury or do I remain angry and resentful that I'm crippled?

It's an imperfect analogy at best, but it illustrates that we do have a choice about how we live our lives from this day on. I consciously chose to hold my head up and not live in defeat. It is a daily fight, because there are many here and IRL that believe I am "arrogant" for believing that I deserve a good life after my actions.

Don't get me wrong...I hear everyone when they say they have dealt with it and moved on. I certainly hear (if not fully understand) the pain of BS. But I do believe it is within your power to overcome the damage wrought by this injustice.

We are all left changed by everything we do. I choose to overcome. I choose to live richly...not in defeat.

Who will join me?

Patriot, this raises another question. Whose 'truth'?

The problem for the BS is that their 'truth' is not the same as the WS's 'truth'. The WS's experience of events is quite different from the BS's. The WS catalogue of emotions includes excitement, pleasure and guilt. It does not include their betrayal by another. The BS's experience includes no pleasurable emotions - just shock, pain, fear, loss of a sense of value. The only positive to be gained for the BS is getting back to zero on the number line from a big negative.

So 'when you have faced the truth' is actually a situation that doesn't make sense. You can face the fact that one of you cheated. But beyond that the experiences diverge, and the 'truth' is different for each. Perhaps that's part of the recovery problem - that there is a natural need to reach concensus on what's happened (that's what married couples usually strive to achieve), but here no concensus can be reached.

I'm not sure if I'm making sense here...

Susan, I trust my H more now than I did just before the affair, but I will never blindly trust anyone again, including him. But, because of the changes we made in our marriage since the affair, I do feel more reassured.

“My point is when is it the WS minimizing the damage or the BS living in the past?”

I think that’s a really good question. I’m not saying I have a really good answer, but I think it’s a really good question. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It led me also to wonder - for either side, BS or WS – when is it not being able to change, and when is it not being willing to change? Maybe that’s the same question, just worded a different way. (I’m talking about A’s, not the other tragedies mentioned earlier.)

It seems like there is a fine line in there somewhere, and maybe it would be hard to figure out or find a balance.

But I was just thinking that, even if we can’t agree on a satisfactory answer for those questions, maybe at least we can all look inward, learn something about ourselves, and make any changes we can that might help our M’s to keep getting better - which is basically what we’re all doing anyway, I guess.

Just 2 cents.

God bless,
Rose

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Love ya Mel ~ even if you are from Texas! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Susan <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I think it's a mistake to think you're even still on the same number line. Living like this always leaves you comparing what you have now (or even could have) with what you think you had.

You have to establish a whole new baseline entirely.

Low

Exactly! I have changed as a result of my injuries and I accept that. It was up to me to choose how to live with those changes. I live my life triumphantly in SPITE of those changes.

And that is the choice any BS must make. Yes, we are changed, but it is up to us how we choose to live with those changes. Thanks for putting it so well, LO. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

LO

I think that eventually you do end up on a new number line whether you want to or not. But, to begin with, the BS is sitting somewhere in the positive part of the number line they've been on their whole life, and suddenly they find themselves well into the red and headed for the big negative numbers. Survival necessitates a desperate struggle to make it to the surface just for a gulp of air. And this is the same number line where the WS has been spiking big positives. (Apologies for the mixed metaphors.)

When you get to the new number line, both of you start from zero. You might make this one more balanced, but the BS has to write off the debt for that big descent to the deep, and the frantic struggle to get to the surface. If the WS doesn't acknowledge the debt, I think the recovery is probably doomed.

I can see the chasm from WS truth to BS truth. I think you try to get as close to the same 'truth' as possible. I think that is the best you can do. I wasn't her. She wasn't me. That sort of thing.

Once you get back to zero on the number line, is that the best you can do? Or do you get there first and then continue to move forward?

And what concensus needs to be reached? An event happened and that is fact. Nothing will change that. Just like nothing will bring my mother back. Is it healthy to live scared and hurt from it forever? Or is it healthy to feel the hurt and pain from it and then move on?

I guess I would think that if two people committed to working things out after the discovery of an affair, then at some point discussion of the affair would subside as well. In other words, the 2 people would stop living in it.

I sometimes mention, from time to time, my mother passing away. Nothing positive came from it. And I know she did not choose to 'hurt' me on purpose. But I don't live in the fact that she is gone. It is not talked about everyday or often for that matter.

I guess I am just curious about targets and naming problems so solutions can be found. People say 'take responsibility for what you did' and I sometimes wonder what that target really looks like. Ask for forgiveness and turn away from the sin? I did that. Commit to helping the BS heal and always strive to grow in the wake of this incident? Doing that too. Do not break boundaries established in your 'new' marriage? Doing that too. So what else?

All I am interested in is hitting ALL of the targets needed to be hit so I can assure success. I have no interest in continuing hurtful behavior. But I can not change the 'already happened'.

I don't know. I have a ton of questions actually. Living in it versus minimalizing it is just one of them.

Also, as just an after-thought.. truth is, I am a different man after all kinds of things that have happened in my life.

I was a different man after basic training. A different man after Active Duty. Everything in your life can change you a little. And sometimes those happenings are not positive at all. Is it 'living in the past' to continually want for who you used to be? Or is it better to embrace who you are now and decide where you will go from here?

Just thoughts....

My golly gosh, I have been trying to catch up with this thread for an hour!, reading all posts to get up to speed, but the posts keep coming faster than I can read them.

Patriot ..""My point is when is it the WS minimizing the damage or the BS living in the past?""

As a BS, about 15 months out from Dday, I guess I am "living in the past" if I still feel the pain and heartache of the betrayal which then takes my mind back to the movies and imaginings of her A.

The WS does minimize the A, to forget about it, and MOVE ON!! They want it to go away and be forgotten.

I think for the BS the machinery is so damaged, as bOb so eloquently described,(again) that we are permanantly changed for the worse. Cannot see how we could ever be changed for the better.

I too liked who I used to be....happy with my M and proud of what Geeze and I had (what I THOUGHT we had). And now that has been proven false.

If a BS could really live in the past...THE PAST BEFORE THE FRICKIN A, they would jump at the chance. If we could bottle that we could all retire early.

k

Interesting statement.

Writing off the debt is called forgiveness.

Recognizing the debt would have displays of remorse and asking for forgiveness, I think. Other things as well.


Also, something else I think that should be considered is if you say you want to forgive the WS, and then you hold the sin over the head of the WS forever(bringing it up in fights, DJs and AOs), do you really want to forgive the WS?

I guess my idea here is once two people say they want to recover... then commit to it.

If the BS says "I will forgive you" or "I do forgive you" and then still holds the debt over the WS, that doesn't seem to be really any better than the WS saying something and doing something else.

I am going off topic.. have been for a bit. Sorry for that. I will probably start a new thread sometime about this making choises and following through idea I have banging around in my grape.

oh... I know full well the BS has every right to cut the losses and leave. And if that is what the BS is going to do, then the WS has only themselves to blame for the outcome. But if the BS and WS discuss and commit to recovery.... then both are responsible for it. Maybe I see something wrong. I just wanted to make sure that people didn't think I believed a BS owed a WS something just because. However, if you choose to take on a responsibility... then it is yours now.

just thoughts again.

krusht,
I am sorry if my remarks have struck a nerve. Not my intention at all and I do not mean to disrespect you or you feelings.

I have not read up on you but I have a few questions.

You say 15 months since DDay. Are you and she in recovery?

Did you commit to recovery?

Are you 'trying' recovery out?

I am just curious. Thanks in advance.

Also, I am not a big fan of Bob's analogy. The machines inside and all. (sorry bob) I didn't like the severed limb idea either. (sorry mel, I think). Your heart and your mind are not like fingers or arms. And they are not like machines. It is possible to 'regenerate' your mind and heart. It is not possible to regenerate your arm or finger. That is all my opinion and I am not stateing that to get anyone to change their opinion. It is only my opinion and not for everyone, I understand.

The tricky part is...would your FWS want to go back there with you???

I, for one, would divorce without hesitation before doing so. It was that bad.

Now if you're talking a "Do Over", then I might be interested in that opportunity. If I could know then what I know now, there are a lot of things I'd want to try.

Another perspective.

You realise this is an entirely different subject, don't you? The issue is the residual damage done to the BS, not the willingness to forgive the WS. I was willing to forgive my WS when I agreed to stay with him, however that does not mean that his actions did not hurt me. Forgiveness does not mean "forgetting." And a BS can't pretend they weren't hurt. And shouldn't.

Oh shoot,
You guys have definetly struck a nerve here in a guy who just passed his three year anniversary of DDay.
I just don't have time to go in depth at this time. Buut I'll be back soon.
Jerry

I guess my thoughts are about the marriage vows. When we married, we made vows to forsake all others. I kept my vow, even though the marriage was going downhill.

My WH chose not to keep his.

There is a certain safety in knowing that vows are meant to be kept. That means remaining faithful, even if the marriage isn't perfect, in sickness, through death, problems, and all of the rest.

So after the vows have been broken - because one spouse "wasn't happy", had health problems, money problems, problems from FOW, abuse problems, job problems, the death of a loved one, or whatever, what is left to keep them from being broken again?

The WS says they would never be unfaithful again. But then, they vowed never to be unfaithful in the first place.

meL, those are the words I said to my H last night. I think he is starting to get it. I forgave him. I love him but I won't forget just as I don't expect him to forget what I did to him.

B, I hope this comes across well. I was the first one in our M to break our vows. I will regret it every day for the rest of my life. I was selfish and immature to my own needs and wants before my H and my family. However, I can also tell you in all sincerity that it will [color:"red"] never[/color] happen again. You see before I had a relationship with God, I truly did not understand what the vows meant. The first time I heard the vows repeated at a wedding AFTER becoming a believer I [color:"red"] got it[/color] Too late to undo what I did but never again.

I have grown from the affair. I didn't want to grow this way and it was a cruel and violent way to learn, but this is what I have learned.

1. Deception is always manipulative and unloving (but easy to justify)
2. I must put on my oxegyn mask first before helping others.
3. The triangle ends when one person lets go.
4. Change is facilitated by a mixture of consequenses and patience.
5. Conflict avoiding is a good way to hinder recovery, a “lover” is the best way to prevent recovery.
6. There are no guarantees except one; God loves you.
7. Love does not and should not conqure all. It is not necessairly good and you should not persue it at all costs. Example: no amount of loving little boys or girls will make pedophelia right.
8. The feeling of love isn’t specail, in and of itself. You can grow it almost anywhere.
9. I know that I can fall in love with someone else, WS did.
10. I cannot have happiness without thankfulness.

Is this good? I think I sort of knew most of this before the A but now it is burned into me. I have been branded.

I actually have a longer list that includes words like team building and helping and enabling. GOOD stuff...

Patriot,

""I am sorry if my remarks have struck a nerve. Not my intention at all and I do not mean to disrespect you or you feelings.

I have not read up on you but I have a few questions.

You say 15 months since DDay. Are you and she in recovery?

Did you commit to recovery?

Are you 'trying' recovery out?""

Dude, No worries at all!! I was just answering your questions. It did not hit a nerve at all, but did make me think? It was a good question.

As for the recovery bit, please check out my thread on "WS's making amends" or something like that. JimmyMac just hit me right between the eyes on that very thing.

We never made a formal commitment to recovery or anything like that. Her mother was dying of cancer, then my son was hit by the car and we have been on the go ever since...like since September 04 till July 05 when we moved back from CO. Dday was 05/31/04, so through the summer (04) we went to MC and worked on it, but by October the stress was so great that talk about the A stopped, along with MC for the same reason.

Did not mean to Tjack here. Patriot, you're square in my book. (as in the Boyscout's square)

k