Hey Pat ! I wanted to respond to you directly:

Your heart and your mind are not like fingers or arms. And they are not like machines. It is possible to 'regenerate' your mind and heart. It is not possible to regenerate your arm or finger. That is all my opinion and I am not stateing that to get anyone to change their opinion. It is only my opinion and not for everyone, I understand.

Patriot, if our emotional and intellectual functions are not every bit as identifiable and predicate in operation and physiology as an arm or a kidney, they the psychotherapy profession have made fools of us all for 200 years.

The physiology and histology of the brain is physically changed by some extreme emotional trauma.

PTSD and similar trauma-responses are not just behavioural. No I am not ONLY talking about the measurable physiological changes to our cerebral emotional cortexes, but the manifestation of how these 'organs' work are predictable and interlocking JUST like any other organs. But their effects are behavioural not physical.

We have psycho-cerebral contructs that facilitate activities such as 'trust' 'love' 'friendship' 'hate' that also trigger low-brain functions like 'fight or flight' and 'reproduction'.

I submit that these can be upset by the trauma of infidelity and this is borne out in my own experience and the experiences of the overwhelming majority of BS respondants here.
These 'machines' were smashed by Squids affair as surely as LowOrbit's poor joints. Successful personal recovery for a BS depends on our ability to rehabilitate what still works and to live around what is beyond repair.

I AM in recovery. I HAVE forgiven Squid. But as mel says that does not remove the psycho-physical consequences of her affair. Because I forgive her I am trying to overcome the damage, but even I am realising I might need pro help soon. My relationship 'engines' are affecting my other relationships in life as well as my marriage. I need to get some more normal functionality back.

Regarding the uniqueness otherwise of affairs I believe that once again the associations affoprded to the affair by BS and FWS may affect their view.

IN an affair most WS seem to believe that they have something unique, special, 'right' and that their M was poor enough to justify it.

Most BS only find out about affairs by reading books like SAA with trembling hands after D-day and they read the first example and see a 90% match in their spouses affair. We learn that all affairs are boringly predictable and similar , within the boundaries of the type of affair they are (ONS, Fling, Romantic/Entangled/LTA/homosexual/Exit).

While affairs causes and effects do seem to be very similar in every case, the techniques for recovering MUST be more unique as the predictable act of infidelity affects everyone diferentlyand different recovery patterns are required.

IMO/ IME anyway.

Like diseases, sympoms are predictable and the manifestations of a disease are preditactle, but the treatment plan must reflect the individual needs of the patient IMO.

Good morning Bob! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> This thread has grown a lot and has indeed become very interesting.



This is SO true…all of it. Just as the above is applicable on BS’s, it is also applicable on ALL kind of traumatic experiences in life including child abuse (especially sexual child abuse). Sorry to bring up this topic again, but since this topic was raised earlier on this thread and since I’m a survivor of sexual and other child abuse myself (including incest), I feel confident enough to address this topic again. It’s a topic I feel very sensitive about and which lays very close to my heart.

Bob, I’ve noticed you asked the following questions to FL earlier on this thread and since I feel I can relate to her child abuse, I want to contribute by giving you some information on this. You said to FL:

“I did not know about your history of abuse. I never knew an abusive childhood so i can't make comparison. Imagine the experience was terrifying and damaging.

Is it possible the 'broken machines' within you are what malfunctioned and enabled your infidelity?”

Bob, I can assure you that child abuse is not just terrifying and damaging, but it also changes the core of a person… A survivor of child abuse have a dysfunctional & weak foundation from the VERY beginning and it also persist into adulthood.

All the material I have read regarding child abuse so far says across the board that abuse victims are more likely to have relationship problems, sexual dysfunction, low self esteem, trust issues and so on and this is especially true for sexual abuse survivors. All of those problems are key factors in infidelity. Plus the cited study of sexual abuse leading to depression and other psychiatric disorders.

Let's see, is there a connection between low self-esteem and infidelity? Is there a connection between depression and infidelity? Is there a connection between relationship problems and infidelity?

I'm thinking there MUST be a study that makes one or more of those links. It sure seems clear from what I have read that there is definitely a connection between low self-esteem and infidelity.

Underneath are 2 threads on MBers where this topic was previously discussed. Here it is:

Sexual abuse undermining marriage? Specifically pay attention to the last post on the 1st page of this thread. It will give more insight on how abuse can promote EA's/A's.

Was sexual abuse part of the affair?

If you read this article it’s also interesting to see that women who were sexually or physically abused as children may have alterations in their brain chemistry that make them prone to depression and anxiety. In a study, the increased hormonal responses to stress may explain why women who were abused as children are at high risk of major depression and anxiety disorders. (That’s the main reason I suffer from OCD, depression & anxiety and use chronic medication for these disorders).

The above article says that future research will clearly confirm that emotional abuse at an early age not only causes emotional symptoms as an adult, but most of the physical health problems they suffer with.

Hope this can give more insight/understanding to people who are interested.

Suzet

Suzet, to be honest I have real difficulty discussing child abuse, even with a victorious survivor like yourself.

I am so enraged just by the thought of the abuse of minors that I feel anger well within me and it prevents me from thinking rationally about the topic. I can

My instinct is to ask whether justice was served to your ( and FLs) abusers rather than to focus on your obviously wonderful recovery.

I will follows your reasearch links when I am calm enough to do it.

Thank you for your candour Suzet.

I had a huge reply to this and then my browser crashed. AArgh it's happened twice now!

In essence I agree with what you say above. I don't believe there is a set pattern to recovery. There are the very good tools to aid recovery but it is down to the individual how long the recovery takes....how long it takes for major breakthroughs (personally and as a couple).

I also believe it makes a great difference with what is happening in your life whilst recovering. I lost my best friend soon after DD - she royally dumped me. Then my MIL lost the majority of her wealth through fraud by family members.

I was slapped in the face with several mirrors....loss of a long (20 years) friendship and betrayal by family.

I plunged myself into recovery as the awfulness of what I had done was reflected back through the other events happening. Also the fight for justice (criminal and civil) on behalf of my MIL has brought my BH and I closer together. I do worry sometimes that this diverts from my betrayal and working through this together. I don't want easy forgiveness and punish myself on a daily basis - Lest I forget what I did. He assures me he hasn't forgiven easily but knows that (his words) when I am on a learning curve...or growth spurt(!) I am passionate and leave no stone unturned until I have learnt my lesson. He trusts that I will learn through this experience and use that knowledge for other people's benefit as well as my own.

Admiration is pretty high on my EN and was lacking so him saying that to me was huge.

Wow, interesting thread. I went to bed last night pondering this subject because I needed some time to figure out for myself how I feel about it.

My first reaction was to make "stock" of my life. That didn't come out very well. Too much death, loss, pain, betrayal. I, like Bob, felt that parts of my emotional makeup were injured beyond repair.

This morning when driving to work it hit me. I had forgotten my own motto that kept me going all my life.
"Will I handle this situation/feeling like a warrior or like a crybaby?"

The warrior is willing to go all the way and to do whatever it takes, in balance with all himself and everything around him. The crybaby is powerless, complaining, whining. Sometimes I'm the warrior. Sometimes the crybaby.

The warrior accepts that life is what it is - people you love die. People you love can hurt you. People do stupid things. I do stupid things, I can die today, I can hurt others. It is a learning process.

The crybaby feels trapped and powerless, betrayed, cheated upon, stuck in a situation it doesn't like, failed, with "why me" and "I'll never get over this" sort of feelings.

My choice is to accept that the crybaby is there and needs to grow up. I want to be the warrior. I want to back up my choices in life 100%, not do something but internally whine because things aren't quite the way I want them. Things will never be perfect. If I can accept that, I can be there 100% and not feel like some parts of me are broken.

Geez I have let the crybaby take hold of my life for far too long! It just isn't healthy!

Edited to add: I like your sigline Bob! It fits this post of mine! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

brownhair, hopefully you aren't saying that anyone that acknowledges they are damaged by life's tragedies are "crybabies?" I fully acknowledge that I am changed to my core by tragedy, but I am not, and never have been a crybaby. Acknowledging the the truth is not a sign that one "needs to grow up," it is just the opposite. Folks who don't acknowledge the truth about themselves and don't deal with it are the ones who need to "grow up," wouldn't you think?

So, I am not sure what you are saying. Can you clarify how you made this leap from acknowledgment of the truth to "crybaby?"

Dear MelodyLane,
yes of course acknowledging what has happened is necessary, and not dealing with it is immature.
Maybe "crybaby" has a much more negative feeling in English than I know of. To me, "immature" and "crybaby" mean just that - being an infant that has no power, cannot change things, is helpless.

ok, I think I understand what you are saying, brownhair. You are not saying that acknowledging it is immature, but that not dealing with it is immature. Gotcha!

Of course my dear..
My point is that I [email]bl@@dy[/email] well acknowledged the damage that was caused by the death of my children, by the betrayal of my H and my BF, and by some other traumatic events in my life.. but I got stuck... sitting in a corner (emotionally), waiting for the next bomb to hit. That's what a crybaby (as opposed to a happy baby, or a warrior <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />) does.

I am with ya on that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Maybe I should use another word instead of crybaby to avoid confusion <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ?

brownhair, I don't think that's a bad term at all; I understood that part really well. I just thought you were saying that anyone who acknowledged they were permanently changed was a crybaby. But you weren't saying that at all. Thanks for clarifying.

I just want to make it clear that not dealing with traumatic experiences is not necessarily a sign of immaturity. One must be vary careful to label things like this… There can be many other reasons as well why people might find it difficult or unable to deal with traumatic events… And one of the reasons might be that a person is not equipped or don’t have the necessary emotional ‘tools’ at a certain stage of their lives to take that first step to do something about it and deal with it… And again, there can be many reasons why people might not have the necessary emotional tools to deal with something… For instance, for more than 25 years I never delt with my child abuse because I felt too ashamed to tell or admit it to anyone…I felt 'dirty". And the reason for this was because for many, many years, I felt guilty about the abuse and in some ways blamed myself for it… If I think back it sound silly now (because how can a child of 5 years be blamed?), but that’s how I felt at the time… So, during my early adult years I didn’t avoid to deal with it because I was immature, but because I’ve struggled with deep settled emotional issues and shame...and as a result I unconsciously repressed some issues for many years.

<TJ>

Patriot, when someone has been grievously wounded by another person, there is a debt. With a big enough injury, the debt can never be repaid, no matter how great the remorse or the reparation. This is quite hard for the victim to accept - that there can be no real justice for the injury, here in this life anyway. But the victim can spend a lot of time trying to get justice and reparation, without ever feeling properly repaid. The victim can end up building their life round their injury and the people that caused it, in a vain attempt to get 'fairness'.

Almost every injured person does this at first. It's normal.

The problem is, that a life spent sitting outside someone's house staring at their windows may well make the sittee nervous and scared, but it also means the sitter is not going to work or to the shops or get on with much of a life. Getting a life back means walking away and allowing the criminal to use their house without fear.

Writing off the debt means acknowledging that you will never get anything approaching justice, that the perps will get off relatively scott-free, and that they can never be made to suffer as they have made you suffer. That's quite a lot to swallow. I mean, if they'd defrauded you financially they would go to prison. It's hard to accept that they can defraud you emotionally and get away with it.

But accepting that is the only way you can get back control of your own life. You have to give up a big and legitimate grievance if you want to get on with life.

It's easier to do this if you sever the ties to the defrauder.

When you are still in a relationship with your emotional defrauder, there is a sense that you are still advancing them credit that they don't deserve, so there is even greater disincentive to write off the existing debt. It's extremely difficult to find a way to let go of the grievance without feeling like a sad doormat; the reminder of that injury is pretty much all that gives you dignity and a sense of power.

The victim simply can't let go of it until they find enough self-belief and self-worth not to need it. Which might take a short time if the victim is a strong person from a healthy background. And might take a long while, for someone whose self-belief was fragile to begin with, or where the guilty partner fails to provide adequate support.

Writing off the debt is hard, but it's the only way to get some forward propulsion into your own life.

Writing off the debt is about the survival of the victim. It has nothing to do with the perp. It has nothing to do with forgiveness.

That help?

</TJ>

Dear Suzet,
please understand that for me there is nothing negative to the word "immature". It simply means that something still needs to grow (mature). We might say we are "ready" to let go or to face our demons - or I might say we have "matured/grown" enough to do so. To me, it means exactly the same. I never intended the word "immature" to have another meaning.

What you have gone through needed a lot of time to heal.

Brownhair, thanks for the clarification - I understand now! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

bob i loved your summerizing post, that is exactly what i was wanting to do myself, in order to see the pattern of who was saying what. thanks.

i did ask my H last night if he felt part of him was dead and he said yes.

i asked him if he thought one day his "dead parts" will be healed. he said, how is anyone to know. to me that is better than a flat out no. i didn't want to be pushy in the conversation, i so hate the idea of causing him pain by talking about it all, but at the same time i know it is manditory.

i don't have anything new to add. i believe i have said my opinions and beliefs, i have no reason or desire to push my opinions/beliefs on anyone else.

i do have the desire to bring a msg of hope to anyone that might be in need of hearing it. that is the reason i first posted to this thread.

bob, regarding...


there is no such thing as serving justice in this kind of situation. i don't want "justice served" on me for the horrible pain i brought my husband. the only justice i used to serve was to not always be or think nicely of my parents. i'm done with that. my dad is gone now and i never made any peace with him. i didn't allow myself to make peace. i had every opportunity especially right at the end. i didn't want to because i felt he didn't deserve it.

all that did was hurt myself.

it can be a struggle at times, but i am trying to have a closer relationship with my mom now, while she is still around.

as for my brother, i've been sitting on a note to him, a note i finished in feb but have not been ready to send to him yet. just writing the note did me a lot of good. but i also want to send it, i want him to read it. with all that is going on with my H and I, I just have not been ready for that yet. it's not going to be easy, depending on my brother's response. i've been feeling closer to being ready, but i still hesitate, i don't want to have any of my energy taken away from my H right now.

off to a mtg for me.

I thought I would post Mulberry's 3rd counseling session here. It kind of shows how both the WS and BS feel.

Jerry asked how the week had gone. It actually went well. Having been given permission to ask anything, say anything, lash out, and he was to accept it, if and when the mood came freed me. I didn't have a melt down this week, actully the week was peacefull. Jerry said that since I knew that Hubby would accept it, and understoon why I was allowed to blow if necessary, took away the need to. That knowing hubby understood why I was going off on him, made it almost unecessary.

The heat was directed at me last night. Jerry told my husband to sit tight, say nothing, listen and not to interrupt at all. Pay attention.

I was nervous.

He asked me to describe, in detail, how I felt the second I had found out about the affair. I told of almost going into shock. How I was not even crying, just shocked. Then how it made me sick. How upset my stomach became and how numb I was.

We then moved to the fake reconciliation. Why was it so important to me to not want anyone to know? Most people sweep this under the rug to hide the imperfection of their lives.

I told them how humiliated I was, how it made me feel like a fool, ugly, undesirable, not wanted, rejected, dumped. I started getting very mad. I started bitching at my husband, that what he did cut me off at the knees, how I felt like I was not a sexy loved wife, but a fool. I was getting into a full burn at this time, I lashed out, how dare he expect me to believe a word he says about being so sorry and how he loved me and felt so bad, DAMMIT if you loved me this would not have happened. At this point I was screaming at him. "I want a divorce, you are a piece of [censored] and a lousy husband, you make me feel like crap and expect me to stay married, why? Why should I want to stay married to you. You are a liar, a mean selfish pig and not worth a second thought" I went on and on. Letting it all just flow. Again.

When I stopped, Jerry asked me what do I expect out of my life, now. I had no answer. Not a one. I have no idea what I want out of my life now. Keep in mind we are discussing my marriage. So I stated that I am not sure that I can stay. That I am so ashamed of myself for not doing the right thing, which was pack him up and send him on his way the day I learned he had cheated. That I felt had I done that, I would probably feel better, that staying with a cheater makes me less of a person.

Jerry asked my husband, "well, what did she just say"

My husband sat there, said, "that she feels bad"

Long silence.

Jerry said "you have got to be kidding me, she does not feel bad, she is almost 100% out of love for you, she sees nothing in you worth staying with, she is telling you that, in her mind, in her heart, the marriage is over. She is done with you. all you say is she feels bad?"

Jerry asks me why I feel that this can't be worked out. I said. We had a marriage, I thought it was based on love, trust and sharing life, obviously he didn't have any of those, and I want to find that person for me, the one who will love me and not hurt me like this, he obviously is not that man, I hate him and wish he would get out of my life, I do not want to care about him, or do a thing for him, I want him gone,now"

Jerry then asked me why I stayed in the first place? I didn't really know. He asked me about the first session, when I said I loved him enough to try. He asked me what my try was.

I said staying in the marriage was a try. He said "[censored]' that is not a try. You have spent every day for the last 1/2 year verbally assulting him, pushing him away, telling him how you hate him, calling hime every name you can think of to hurt him with, that is not a try. You have let this man know exactly how little you think of him, you mocked him in the hospital when he thought he had a heart attack, when you learned it was anxiety, instead of being relieved, you used it as a tool to mock him, tell him how he deserved it. You have done nothing to try, you have just endured. You have put in no effort either. Every time your husband has even tried to reach out to you, you have thrown it in his face, told him how much you hate him and kicked him out of the house. You planned on humiliating him at your clinic, you didn't want him there. You have not tried at all. You say you do, but you don't. No matter what he does, it isn't good enough. You do nothing for him at all anymore do you? When was the last time you did something for him? Not just laundry or cooking, but when did you last do something, special, for him?

My answer: I haven't killed him yet. (not a good answer in Jerry's eye)

He YELLED at me :"you think cause you dont shoot him that is trying? Do you even pay attention to him at all? Do you know how hard it is for him to listen, day after day how much you hate him? Do you know how hard it is for him to know you are now looking at other men, in a sexual way? Do you know how he felt when he was at his brothers, and you were telling him you were going to find another man? What could he say? You knew he could say nothing. You both know that the minute he said he didn't like you talking with or flirting with other guys, that you were going to hit him heard with his affair, so you expect him to sit back and say nothing, take it. And you call that trying?

I said I guess I haven't even tried to forgive, or even tried to be remotely nice. That I didn't feel like it and that I really don't care if he likes it or not, that the wife he had is long gone, that the new me doesn't have any respect for him or feel any need to think of him at all, that until he fixes this he has lost me.

More later. Gotta go.



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Bob, I felt outraged for many years…and I found it unable to forgive my abusers (my father and uncle) until I finally confronted them and received an apology from them. In the letters I have sent to them, I have let them know exactly what the abuse did to me and how it affected me throughout my life. It was the hardest thing I ever did (to find the courage to finally send that letters), but I know I needed to do that if I wanted to heal and put things behind me. And I needed to do that for my own emotional and spiritual well-being and sanity... Luckily my counselor and friend – a wonderful Christian woman - and my H, were there to support me throughout the whole process. I don’t think I would be able to do that without their support… Anyway, after my father and uncle received the letters, I received a phone call from both of them and they requested to talk to me in person…and during those face-to-face conversations they sincerely apologized to me. It also came out during the conversation with my uncle, that he was sexually abused as a child himself.

Edited to add:

Bob, I believe if justice is not served here on earth for people who did things like this and who choose to NOT surrender themselves to God to receive forgiveness for their sins, will one day after death receive justice anyway… There is always consequences to sin – no matter if justice is served here on earth or not. Even the people who surrender themselves to God and receive His forgiveness still have to bear consequences like guilt; how to learn to live with their conscience etc. No one can escape the consequences of wrongdoings. Sometimes those things come back to haunt them after many, many years (like usually happen with abusers).

Suzet

Suzet, thank you for that exposition. I cannot imagine the hurt of abuse.

Of course there can be no justice on earth for people who commit such evil.

My comments were just borne of the caveman part of me that wants to hurt people who abuse people they are powerful enough to dominate.

You are right of course.

Somethings never change, even after affairs - I obviously still think I am Zorro ! lOL !:)