Krusht and MelodyLane - first let me restate one thing. WW is no longer living in OM's apartment. She moved out about 3 weeks after D-day and moved into a hotel. I have confirmed this as best I can from the standpoint that I only call the hotel front desk and have them connect me to the room where she answers the phone. The part about paying rent was when she was living in OM's apartment before D-Day, and was explaining to me why there were phone calls to OM on old e-mail bills. She considers that time as NC, since she says the A ended 5 mos. ago. I say it ended when she last had contact, which was on June 30. She understands that, we sent a NC letter, she has not lived in OM's apartment since then, and she has not had any calls on cell phone bill since then.

Anyway, I'm not a naive person. I understand that everything she says to me could just be trying to throw me off the trail. But also, many here have said it will take a long time for her to get through withdrawal and that many people don't open up and tell the full story from day one. So, I still struggle with, at some point I'm going to have to believe something she says. And no matter how you slice it, there is always some way to intrepret each action as a positive or a negative. When do you make the switch.

Are you saying that the NC letter was meaningless? I viewed that as a good sign.

Yes - I know the job she has is a problem. I have told her that either I quit my job and move there or she quits her job and moves back or there's no way we can work on the M. But her new job is a complicating factor. She views working on the M as not only a cmmittment to the M but also requires her to quit her job. This is hard for her to do because she is dreadfully afraid of being unemployed.

I'm not trying to ramble, but she has been remorseful, she is being more honest (not completely IMO, but telling me more things that she did not have to), she has started IC, she doesn't whine about me not trusting her, just gets tired of it being brought up every time I talk to her, we have done a NC letter, she has committed to do something about the job, and all the snopping i've done says that NC is in place since June 30.

So is it the general consensus here that the A is not over until my WW comes back home? I'm really not trying to be arguementative, just trying to figure out what progress looks like. ML - you told me that this could take a long time, cause it was a 2.5 year EA/PA. What are the milestones or is the consensus that it just one day she's back and ready to work on the M and that is the only milestone. Okay, let me have the 2x4's <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Melody and Krusht - I do appreciate the advice. I'm just trying to understand things better

Rprynne,

The NC letter is a good thing. If it is enforced.

The distance between you two must end, one way or another. Tell her you will quite your job, move there, live with her and get a job there. See what that reaction will be.

""So, I still struggle with, at some point I'm going to have to believe something she says. And no matter how you slice it, there is always some way to intrepret each action as a positive or a negative. When do you make the switch.""

Many in the halls of MB speak about their "gut" feelings. In your previous post when speaking to your W you had ambivelant thoughts which turned into LBs. I think this is your "gut" speaking to you. When you gut tells you to trust her, maybe that is when you make the switch.

I don't see how there can be any trust or recovery or intimacy or anything good while you are here and she is way over yonder. And you call her and get the message machine and then she calls you right back. My head would be spinning with thoughts of WTF??

It's funny, you lay out the situation, we comment on it slamming her, then you defend her!! You are a good guy. Now what is that saying about good guys?? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

k

rprynne, I think it's sort of unlikely that she will stay in NC, if she is, if you two are seperated. It would be hard to stay away from the OM under the best of circumstances during withdrawal.

I just think that all this checking up on her is quite futile right now in the big scheme of things. [not to mention huge lovebuster to be nagging her about being out later than expected - what a waste of time since she can tell you whatever she wants to tell you and you will never be the wiser] To me, it is like worrying about the peeling paint in the girls bathroom on the Titantic while the ship goes down. You have much bigger issues here to address.

I would strongly suggest that you work harder on living together and do it quickly. I don't see how this is going to work if you aren't even together to work on your marriage. It was the seperation that led to this, so that impediment has to be removed if you are ever going to have a marriage again.

K - nah, I'm not a good guy. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It wasn't my intention to come off as defending her. Just you and Mel read my previous post as saying she was still living in OM's apartment and wanted to correct that.

The other points I was making are more about is this just a journey of no milestones or what. When I do my job, I have an end objective, and there are many smaller objectives along the way that need to be accomplished first. This is the way I view most things. I've heard people say that this process is a war with many battles. I'm just trying to get a feel if people think I'm winning any of the battles. Does that make sense? Its hard for me to cope with just banging my head against the wall, but if that is the consensus of folks here, then so be it.

Yes, fully aware of the need for us to be co-located for any significant progress. I have told her I'll do whatever it takes.

I guess for me, my plan is end the A, get my WW to be honest with me, get her to move home (or me move out there), get my WW to committ to working on the M, start recovery.

My gut tells me the A is over, and WW is making progress on being honest, and starting to deal with the co-location problem. If this is correct, then I don't want to keep harping on the A, asking if it continues, and questioning every word out of her mouth, which makes her shut down. If I'm wrong, then I think plan B is in the near future. Am I crazy? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

Mel - I agree. And I'm working my tail off to make that happen. Can't say I'm thrilled about my odds as she has put her job above our M for a long time IMO. She says she is going to take care of it and fix this. Can't wait to hear her plan.

ok, that sounds good, rprynne. At least we are on the same page and are seeing the same key issues. It concerns me that much of your contact with her is bickering over what time she gets home. Your relationship doesn't need that kind of negative exposure right now. And just think about it, rprynne, she can tell you whatever she wants to tell you so there is no reason to turn it into a battle of wills. If she is going to lie, she is going to lie.

I wonder if she is like me in that she often under/over estimates her ETAs? Some of us are just not good at it.

Can I suggest you start counseling wth Steve Harley? It would be ideal for you two since you are seperated and he could counsel you together. He is extremely good and could get you back on the right path. He would give you a plan and is quite brilliant in dealing with WS'. It would be worth every penny.

Instead of questioning every word that comes out of her mouth, why not just ask her to volunteer her whereabouts during the day by staying in touch? Tell her you are not the cop here, but need to be reassured so she can rebuild trust. And then, STOP questioning her, rprynne. Dont' question her. If you have EVIDENCE that something is wrong, then present the evidence, but don't accuse her or voice any suspicions unless you have the evidence.

Put the onus on HER to rebuild trust and establish her whereabouts. See what I mean?

By all means, continue your snooping, though!

"When she goes out for dinner, I'll ask "what time do you think you will call back". Whatever time she says it is always 1-2 hours later when she actually calls. Once she is "late" for her call, I get more and more anxious."

She needs to be rebuilding your trust. How can she do that if she does not keep her word, even about little things?

She needs to quit talking about all of the things she is going to do, and do them.

The NC letter is the only thing that makes me hopeful.

Your wife still does not "get it".

Mel - Agree with what your saying. And yes, my W does tend to have problems with her ETA. She goes through times when she is great about it, then times where not so great.

I plan on calling S. Harley. I was going to do that next week and see if my WW would be willing. I was actually only waiting to see what her plan for fixing the work situation was. I'm also going to have to be a little patient. My Grandfather passed away on Monday and both WW and I are going to the funeral. I want to get through that week and avoid any R talk.

Believer - I 100% agree with you. In fact this has been one of our bigger arguements in our M, since long before the A. I just don't know how to solve it. I've asked her for how she thinks to solve it, but her answer is always, yes I understand its inconsiderate, and I wont do it anymore. But that never seems to stick. I don't have the answer because when she's late, I just get worried. Especially with all the driving she used to have to do on her commute to work. I'll noodle on that some more. She has gotten much better about it in the last week and I tried to POJA with her. I told her it just drives me crazy when she does it and we need to agree on someway to address this.

Thanks again everyone for the advice.

WW said she had a meeting with her boss last week and told him that the company's new plans about not opening an office in our hometown would not work. She says she told him she wanted to know if she should put in her resignation or if there was something that could be worked out.

Today she told me her boss said, they would not open an office in our hometown, but were willing to let her work from home and set her up an office at our house. Job is still going to require some travel (including to OM's city, since this is the corporate office). Said they will do this for six months and then re-evaluate. I asked what does re-evaluate mean, you could have to leave home again? She said no, it means either keep the office in our home or set up a permanent office in our hometown. So WW said she will be moving back home and working from home. Since she just found out, she said she doesn't know when she'll move back but it will be soon.

(Pardon me while I vent for a second. I hate that my life is now in a state where I feel compelled to analyze everything my wife says to decide is this is just BS to continue the A or to stall a little longer, or whether its the truth. I hope one day that goes away).

Anyway, she's coming to visit me next week. I think I have my plan in place, but would appreciate any critique. While she visits, continue with plan A, no R talk, no questions about the A, snopp when I can. Ask for a committment on a date to move back in and an agreement to POJA future travel plans for work (i.e. sometimes I go with her, etc.). I also would like to express my feelings about what she can do to better rebuild my trust.

I'm a little shakey on this last one, because when I "give her advice" on how to do things, she thinks of it as controlling. I'm not being weak and saying I am avoiding having this talk, just not sure if I shouldn't hold off until she's back in the house for good.

Anyway, I hope her moving back is real and we can start working on recovery. I really doubt she would move back in and continue the A. She doesn't need money or a place to stay, and it would definately be easier for her to not move back home if she planned on continuing the A. As always any advice is appreciated. Krusht, Mel, let me have it. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

rprynne, call Steve Harley and let him guide you on how faciliate this reconciliation. That could make all the difference. Y'all need a PLAN here, it isn't just going to happen all on it's own. Let SH be the one to guide her and help you in all this. Y'all are so detached that its going to take some professional help and he is just perfect for y'all because you can both do it long distance and because he won't waste your time with nonsense.

You could have a session alone with SH first and then bring her in.

Mel - I said I was going to do that. Don't you think I'm an honorable man? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Just waiting to hear back on when I'm scheduled. Plan on being just me at first and then seeing if the Mrs. is willing.

Good man!! I thought maybe you had changed your mind. Shame on me for ever doubting you! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/blush.gif" alt="" /> That is great news that she is coming home. That will give you a great opportunity to fall in love again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

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Post deleted by rprynne

whoops!

Ok.

Okay - set up for Monday with SH. We'll see how it goes. WW hasn't decided yet whether she'll join in or not.

Interesting few days. Went to a nice restaurant. After dinner I stopped at the bar. As I stood up to leave I passed out. Next thing I knew I was sprawled out on a a bar floor surrounded by the wait staff asking if I was okay. I wasn't drunk BTW. I'm really struggling with this part about being an attractive spouse. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> 2 headers in a month. (Did get checked by a doctor, said I'm fine, that it can happen sometimes)

Met with SH, went well. His opinion was that WW's A was over. I must say it felt good to hear that - hope he's right. SH wanted to talk with WW. She agreed and is calling him. One interesting point was WW agreed to give me all details of the A this weekend. SH recomended I tell her to wait until after he talks to her. That was hard for me to do, but I did it.

WW is visiting right now and said she will be moving back in soon. Said she wants to work on the M cause its the right thing to do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> Not quite the teary eyed, ILY and want to save the M I was looking for, but I guess its a start.

Anyway, my question. Lately I have been having moments where all of sudden I am very very angry about all this. I have seen some here recomend talking to your S about this. I'm more leaning towards holding off bringing it up until/if our recovery is on more stable footing. Is this good or bad?

Hold your anger for awhile longer. Try to exercise or work it out some other way.

Also when she comes back, be prepared to second guess yourself. You may start wondering why you wanted her back. That happens a lot.