Also she demanded the URL for MB. She wanted to jump on this thread and correct/argue/whatever.

I think she should definitely come to MB, don't you? But I think she needs to be on her own thread. And I told her she'll get lots of help from terrific warm loving people who only want to help her and our M. Not sure if she'll come to MB though.

This is so very classic. We hear the same threats on here every week. A WS who intends on continuing their affair, does not want it ruined by exposure. She knows that you have the power to ruin her affair and is threatening you. She is bullying you into silence. She says she will not "send a NC letter," but has no intention of sending one now.


A "promise?" Promises are worthless frm a WS, what matters is action. Where is the no contact letter? How long has she been in no contact? You should know that this is just talk designed to throw you off her path and shut you up. She has no intention of ending contact. She doesn't HAVE to since she has you manipulated into keeping her secret.


She will think that she has successfully manipulated you into silence and will be emboldened in her continuance of treating you like a fool.

Why would you be PROUD of the fact that you helped her hide her affair by keeping her secret? You are bragging to her that you have helped her destroy your marriage. You are contributing to your own demise. That is a very odd stance to take, my friend. Whose side are you on, wnh?

If she comes here you will lose MB as a resource in ending this affair and likely have to leave. We have had many BS have to leave MB because they could not make plans to effectively end the affair with their WS reading here.

Also, folks who are trying to help you here should not be put in the position of having to debate with your fogged out WS. You won't get much help that way.

Thanks Melody. Sorry, I didn't know that WS don't work well at MB. Probably should have figured that out myself. I'll point her elsewhere. Yes she is fogged, and no doubt whoever helps her will find it very challenging.

I know you have extensive experience, and I respect that. Not sure if I'm quite on track here, but it sounds like you think there's a near-0% chance that WW has a sincere desire to end the A or do NC? If I may ask, in your experience, how frequently does WW end the A without OM being exposed? 1-in-10? 1-in-5?

wnh, I can't give you accurate odds, but I do know that it is rare that the WS ends the affair without pressure. Exposure almost always hastens the end of the affair or ends it immediately. Probably 30-40% of the time, the affair ends that day.

Now, when your W has truly ended the affair it would be good to bring her here. We have many WS' here who are very healthy and could help her through it.

Weneed,

I do think your W might want to come here. But let me explain to you how it might play out if she does. IF, she truely wants to rebuild the marriage, this site will definitely help her and while the going might be tough for awhile, she will come to see things in a different perspective.

However, if as Mel suspects the A is on, then what she will do is use what you have posted here as justification for her continuing to do what she wants to do. Coming here while in the middle of an affair you don't want to end is as useless as going to MC thinking the same thing.

We have had many WS's come here and not only change their perspective but become some of the most helpful people on this site. We have had WS's come here while in the middle of an A, vowing to never tell their spouse, BUT...actually KNOWING in their heart that what the are doing is bad. These WS's often change their perspective and respond to the possibility that the marriage could be better.

Weneed, it is hard to say which way your W is going on this. However, if you knew why were you telling us you were debating between finding out and letting your W tell you? I am not sure what is going on here.

If you know who the OM is, you did not handle this correctly at all. You have now put yourself in a poor position IF her affair is continuing. If you knew we would have told you to tell her and take this off of the table and releive the pressure on your W to tell, while keeping open the option of telling the OM's W and other people. That option is rather crucial IF you suspect the A may continue or is in only hibernation.

So it depends on you, if you send her here. In someways you will find out some things, but it will be at a cost.

Think about it.

God Bless,

JL

Thank you. To me it feels like we've just reached the Confession stage of Confession/Repentence/Forgiveness. Up to now WW's talk has had the flavor 'I did something wrong and I'm sorry but I'm really not going to say quite what it was, and if you try to find out I'll hate you for it.'

Now the flavor is 'Here is (almost) everything I did wrong, I'm an (almost) open book I am ready to Admit/Confess to (almost) everything'. Close enough. I see that as a huge 1st step.

WW says she's remorseful, but if so she is unable to express it meaningfully, because she is so bitter and mad. And fogged and probably guilted.

I want to be optimistic and assume that her giving OM's name means she's really done with the A. I realize I need to monitor and be careful with that since NC doesn't come easily.

While NC continues - hopefully forever - I plan to go very slowly and rely heavily on using the Rule of Protection and the Rule of Care to help our relationship to heal and deepen. I expect that at some point she really will have remorse - it sounds like most WWs here have at some point gotten to that stage.

And I've told her she's forgiven, and now I need to really forgive her deep down inside. That's not so easy for me, I need to really really work on that, go to school, use resources, study etc. It's vital that I can get over this and not hold it against her.

WW seems to have found another site. Hope she finds it as helpful as I've found this one to be.

Progress with the M is ..well..progressing. So far so good.. Since WW revealed OM's identity, I think there's been no contact either way. (But that's only 4 days). Also WW is taking care to account for all of her time.

Next week we'll be on vacation. Both WW and I are a bit worried, and promised each other to be careful to avoid arguments/LBs etc. And no discussions about the A or the M problems until we get back.

..So far so good...

If she should struggle with NC, I still have exposure as a fallback. Promised WW I wouldn't do that, but really it depends on how she conducts herself. Boy I hate to think about what happens if she doesn't stay in NC and I decide to expose. Could get really ugly with a bad bad ending for the M.

Don't worry about that too much. Although WS's can get really mad and indignant about the exposure, I don't think I can remember one case where the WS left over it. Truly, it blows over in a few days. So don't lose sleep over using exposure to end their contact, if it continues. And don't hesitate to do it!

Seems like you are hanging in pretty well....I just dropped in to offer a word of support.

SD

THanks for the thought Shattered. Be back in a week.

Both WW and I are a bit fearful of so much time together; could be really good for the M, or maybe a bit tense. Anyway we promised each other we would have a great time and stay away from controversial topics this week.

Hi friends. Back from vacation 2 days now. Had a terrific time, no problems just great fun. Sound too good to be true?....

It is. Just checked my sources to find WW had been in contact just shortly before our trip. Can't believe it. I confronted WW, she denied and asked to see proof - which I declined to save my sources. Then I think she continued contact. It's amazing how fast the bad feelings left us while away, and how fast the same old stuff returned once back.

Time to expose. Just need to check a few facts etc. then - unless WW shocks me and admits her difficulties with lack of NC - I expect to be back in a day or two in hopes the good people here will share their thoughts and advice on the best way to expose.

My fear is that I'm running out of steps. MC didn't work, talking didn't work, getting her to give me OM's name didn't work, talking again didn't work, more MC still hasn't worked yet . . . All I see left is exposure, and if that doesn't work serve divorce papers.

This is scary. Are there any other less drastic steps between exposure and divorce?

Exposure is scary, but it's really the only tool you've got left to force her hand as long as she continues to deny that anything is going on.

Remember that her goal is to keep this quiet for as long as possible...and she knows that once it is out in the open all heck is going to break loose. So all she wants is to keep it hidden...and she'll lie through her teeth to do so.

If you don't get this out in the open where it can be addressed, it will NEVER go away.

Had a brutal confrontation in MC today. WW finally admitted she's in contact, but was less than truthful about the extent of contact. I walked out after telling WW she needs to choose between having OM or me in her life.

Frankly she's so bullheaded I thought she would choose him just to get to me. But I am so sick to my stomach and disgusted by the prospect of another 3 months of this that I would rather lose her than continue to be 2nd on her list.

Tonight she said she chooses me 'of course' - a surprise. So we'll talk tomorrow in detail. I want to lay down the ground rules at that time, saying that I need us to do it like MB says: NC letter, let OMW know what happened, total honesty, open book with her email/cell phone etc records...

I don't want to commit LBs. Within that restriction, I would be most grateful if you could let me know what else I should insist on.

5 weeks ago we tried this once, but did it WW's way. All wrong, e.g. no NC letter, WW wouldn't even tell me OM's name or how to contact him, WW insisted I don't talk about her A with her 'too much', etc. NOT the MB way, and honestly it was a total failure, as she remained in contact. Now I want to do it right.

I fear that the deal buster will be the requirement that we inform OMW. That may end the meeting without the agreement we need. If I were to settle for 90% and omit that key point, the concern would be that WW and OM find some other channel to communicate and it just goes underground deeper. If I were to expose to OMW, that would reduce the likelihood that the A goes deeper underground.

Another idea; I could try to expose to OMW before my meeting with WW tomorrow night - just to preempt WW on that point. But she will be so mad she may walk out.

Really need your help please with wisdom and advice, now more than ever.

weneedhelp, I am reluctant to even try again, but here goes. Why in the world would your W agree to bust herself to the OWH? I do not understand why you are trying to exact that unrealistic agreement out of an already problematic, volatile situation. It just adding fuel to the fire. If anything will make her run, the demand that she bust herself would seem to be it.

You will have enough trouble getting her to agree to NC without adding the unrealistic demand that she bust herself. The point is that the OMW needs to know in order to decrease the risk of a resumption of the affair. Why make it so much harder than it already is? Just pick up the damn phone and be done with it. Call the OMW, give her the facts and then inform your W. THEN, you can move on towards the goal of NC. Please don't drag this out any longer; it really is very unneccessary.

I agree with ML...don't let your wife know in advance what you're doing...she'll do damage control to try to minimize the impacts of your exposure. Expose to OMW, and be done with it. Let your wife know (perhaps let OMW know what you're doing and why you'd like to keep it from getting back to your wife that you called her) or not, but make it happen ASAP.

It probably will make your wife angry...but when she goes ballistic, simply tell her that the reason you did that was to 'burn the bridge' so that she couldn't waffle back and forth between you and OM. Be HONEST about why you're doing what you're doing.

It will cause a battle, but make it clear why you did it (perhaps talk with your MC before you do so, and get his approval in contacting OMW too...that would minimize her chance to use it against you).

Hang in there.

Thanks Owl. I think its very important to let his W know that she has been exposed to the OMW. That will be a key factor in making her think twice about contacting the OM. I would recommend that he not only tell his W AFTERWARDS, [never before!] but he make it clear that he will stay in contact with her about any future contact.

Secondly, I don't think its necessary to consult the MC, because a) many MC do not understand infidelity, are not pro-marriage and often counsel keeping the affair a secret and b) it will just waste more time that he does not have. Dr. Harley is a MC and he recommends exposure except in the rarest of cases.

weneed...

I am at a loss as to why you can not see how you're being manipulated. You're afraid of PI$$ing off your W, who is having a continuing affair? You're trying to make "agreements"? You're trying to be the nice guy is what you're trying to do. I am grabbing a 2x4 and smacking you with it. Once you get up you can realize that getting your W to agree to exposure is insane. As they used to say in the Nike commercials..."JUST DO IT!!"

Your W is a classic WW and will she be mad? Absolutely. However, exposure will do something that you have not done. It gets to the OM...that's right....once he is exposed is when the dynamic of the affair changes...

take control..and do it...I agree with everything that ML and others have said here and there is a portion of me that believes that we're all wasting our breath with you. You're taking the steps necessary and while I understand you're hesitant and scared but you're keeping yourself in quicksand.

Thanks Melody, Owl and Send. I meant that I was considering exposing to OMW myself, but with WWs knowledge. I thought I saw somewhere - perhaps on WATs or PATs guide - that that was a good way to do exposure. Must have misread it, please pardon my lack of experience and thanks for straightening me out.

Yes I'm scared. Maybe I'm just a huge coward. WW had previously warned me she would immediately file for separation and divorce if I ever contacted OM, OMW, any family members, associates, friends, etc. If I were to do that, there's at least an 80% chance she would decide to file. I understand she may come to her senses before actually doing the paperwork, but she's fogged out, and coming to her senses doesn't seem likely.

I had promised WW that I would not expose to any of those people. But really when I made that promise I had in the back of my mind that - if she didn't stay in NC - I would be fully-justified in breaking my promise as well. And that's where we find ourselves now. But "fully-justified" doesn't prevent D or make me and the kids feel much better after D does it? To overstate it, I can be 'fully-justified', expose, and be divorced, or be a cowardly slug, not expose, and remain married. And try to enforce NC without exposing to OMW. I know, I know, I know already - that's running a marathon with one foot encased in cement.

Between you and all the others who have graciously helped, you have 1000 man-years of experience, and you seem to be fairly unanimous that exposure is without doubt the way to go. But then that applies to the normal WW - please believe me when I say that my WW is way out in the 99th %ile in being godawful bull-headed and has just about never admitted she was wrong. I think she will file, in part just to prevent admitting she was wrong. She's already justified her A (she's really convinced herself) on grounds of some of my behaviors more than 2 years ago.

WW has just called a recently-divorced neighbor - don't know why but I assume to ask for attorney referral. She also made a couple of other unusual official-looking calls, which I don't comprehend yet. Anyone familiar with Jones Lang LaSalle's accounting services? We've had no previous contact with them.

Does the individual situation re the M and specific characteristics of WW ever affect the expose/not expose decision?

Starting to think I should hire an attorney and get started on D papers. That way, if WW should decide to file, I can perhaps beat her to it. I understand there are some advantages to being the 1st to file in our state.

I'm sure you understand that exposing is - for me - not an easy decision to make. To do that I have to be SURE I'm willing to risk the M (such as it is these days).

I think I'll wait re exposing until after WW and I talk tonight. I won't say anything about the possibility of exposure, but the meet will help me gather info.

WW is - as always - stubborn, belligerent and unapologetic. My stomach is a mess, my head hurts, I feel sick, I've just had the worst Summer ever, and the Fall isn't looking any better. That's why I'm ready to bump it up a notch.

Well, the real question here is, "Are you willing to live with things the way they are now (or the way that she prefers that you live), or do you want to take the risk and try to fix things?"

It all boils down to that. At the end of the day, you're the one who's going to live with the consequences of your actions (or inactions).

All right..I will respond...

Whether or not you expose will have little to do with her filing for a divorce. I know you find this hard to believe but it will not. I assure you that the anger will be like you have never seen. When my XW did not call our sons when she went on a work "trip" to Vegas I knew something was wrong. When she finally did I asked her "who is it that is more important than your family" when she got angry, I got angry. It was a brutal conversation but in the end her anger deflected my concerns. I was right. When she becomes irrationally angry now I have all my guards up...at attention...she uses anger to cover lies..

So my friend. You need to single handedly bust up this little romance and exposure will do it. see you have already lost her and now you need to win her back...and there is a very real possibility you can not...but as everyone else on here has said..right now you're enabling her affair by giving in to her ultimatums....