Shattered I hope things are well with you. You've been quiet, everything okay with your dad? Best Wishes.

I haven't said for awhile that I care deeply for WW and really want things to work out. I can see a future where we live happily together for many terrific years. And - if this isn't too depressing - finally die in the knowledge that we were loved deeply by our lifelong partner. I can see that! And I'm sure we can do that. But the path is narrow and tricky. Wish us luck.

Man I'm hot right now. Jaws clenched, hammering the keyboard.. W wanted to talk. Prepared speech. "I can see you're ticked", "I can see you've made progress and I'm happy for you", "I'm just afraid it will stop when I come back to you"; "until you understand I wasn't happy before the A you won't ever be able to come to term with the A", "I love you, I've always loved you for 15 years", "I just need some time" yadayada.

Man I'm cranked. Not one single word of taking responsibility for her dang A, just dumping it back on me AGAIN! Good grief.

I want her to talk to me from the heart, and say "I was wrong, I'm very sorry to have hurt you, I've damaged our M forever and I'm crying every night about that". But all I get is the same old [email]cr@p.[/email]

Want to hear the worst of it? She will never do that in a million years. Not in her. I can be loving, I can be distant, I can play hardball, I can be mean, I can be remote. Doesn't matter. She just flat won't take the responsibility.

Why does she bother approaching me and talking that way? It adds no value, it only hurts not helps. Nothing good about it. I'm sick of this.

Well, she'll never accept responsibility while she's still in the fog. That's really just a given...she's going to justify what she's done (and what she's put you through) to keep from accepting the blame back on herself. Even when the affair ends, it's usually quite a while before the WS begins to accept the responsibility of it...and there ARE some who never do.

If you feel that you need her to accept that responsibility, but you KNOW in your heart that she never will, then what's your plan for dealing with it?

In my case, we reconciled rather quickly compared to many. But, it was still many months after everything had ended before she even began to accept responsibility for what she'd done. And I received damn few "I'm sorry"'s...because my wife isn't very good at them either. She, like many others, prefers to leave it in the past.

So, you need to expect that it's likely going to be a long time before you truly see any remorse and regret from your WW...and you need to make your own plans accordingly. How are you going to deal with that?

Hopefully you'll get some good advice from the 'experts' here.

dnh

I'm on vacation again, sorry I haven't checked in. Owl has it exactly right. Until the fog clears, expect the same entitled arrogance and indignant behavior.

Stay in plan A, and thicken your skin to her attitude. Make life as fun and normal as possible, and try to do things together. It all adds us. Have you been able to verify that NC has remained in place???

Trust but verify....sneaky vigilance is still the name of the game!

More when I'm back home on Monday. Keep the faith!

SD

Hope your dad's recovery is going well Shattered. How was the golf?

My attitude towards WW is really slipping lately. WW followed up on that speech with a note reiterating same. I'm so disgusted at having to keep hearing how my coercions (8 years ago!) caused her dang A. She's so far out of bounds she's not even in the ballpark.

I don't think we're going to make it. The very last thing I want is to visit an attorney, and I can feel the cold chill of impending divorce creeping closer. Wed will be 5 months of this stuff. I'm not sure how much I can take without exceeding my limit.

wnh,

It is always darkest before the dawn. If you give up you will never eliminate the what ifs.

I remember readins some posts from the vets when all seemed lost and then something happened to turn things around. It might not happen in your case but if you give up you will never know.

You can't go into Plan B unless you are ready mentally and strategically. Plan B will give you control back, but it won't work without an effective Plan A.

I'm thinking of you.

Emotional detachment....

Make it a game, or at least a "self-challenge". Focus on turning all lemons into lemonade. It took me a while to get the knack of it, and when I achieved that "level", life got much less stressful.

Think of your "babe" as completely, ga-ga, nutso, brain taken over by an alien, totally out of touch mental patient, over which you have been granted care. Look at her actions as though she has NO control over the drivel that spews from her mouth. Pity her.

Stay in Plan A for a while longer, in fact, Harley recommends you pick a time which is "enough" for you, but bear in mind the holidays are closing in. When you've had enough, you can go to Plan B. This whole process is designed to make YOU a better, self-sufficient person, regardless of whether the marriage makes it or not. Plan B is just the second step of the process.

Try the emotional detachment...and find a positive in everything that takes place. Try it for a couple of weeks, and be a really FUN and EXCITING person to be around.

Part of the vulnerability in a marriage comes from a routine in which both parties become numbed and bored. Spice up your daily activities with creative ideas for things to do, much like the days when you were dating your W, pre-marriage. Be a little more mysterious and stay busy.

Have you considered a phone session with the Harleys? Word is that they can cut through to the "meat" of your situation quickly and be very helpful. Also, they are pretty good at getting a WS attention, and saying some things to them that make them a bit more introspective to their actions. Might be worth the time and money?

Keep hanging!

SD

wnh

How are you doing?

SD

Not so good. Lots of major problems, and it feels like we're slipping more every day. I certainly am. WW and I will try to talk soon - maybe tonight. 1st time since I exposed 5 weeks ago. I fear another step closer to the brink if it doesn't go well. And I don't think it's likely to go well given her current attitude, and mine.

Basically I'm tired of WW using my ancient control episodes as her excuse for her A. She is very clearly blaming it on me. Also tired of her being standoffish and waiting to see if the new me is right for her and if the changes I've made are permanent or just temporary to win her back. Also tired of her beating me with the 'control' stick. I'm not willing to be beat with that stick any longer.

And tired of MY being put on trial after HER A, shouldn't she be the one who's on trial here? Reversing the roles in which WW has cast us, I would ask E.g. "Is there a new WW? If so, is the new WW right for me, am I willing to take her back? Are her changes permanent or just temporary to get back in my good graces? Can I beat her with the 'A' stick every week like she's been beating me with the 'Control' stick?"

I hate this control accusation, it really makes discussions extremely difficult. Whatever I say or do, she is likely to think to herself "he's being controlling or manipulative or coercive". If I even smile, she can think 'why did he do that, what is he trying to manipulate with that smile?' So we can all guess how my communications will be perceived during the upcoming talk.

I've been discouraged for a couple of weeks now. Pretty obvious to WW, I guess. Right now the only thing I'm doing is to honestly show her my current feelings towards her. Today, right now, they aren't very warm.

I suppose to a MB observer it would look similar to a 180 or an in-house Plan B or something. But that's not it. I'm not doing plan anything, just being honest.

WW is troubled by it. A few days ago she said she wants to work on the M. And yday said she wants to work hard to put together a new M, and asked what I need and what she can do to help. So that's a pretty huge change in her attitude. Why is it that, as soon as I show how sincerely p*ssed off I am, she decides to be all sweetness and work on the M? It doesn't smell right. I'm not the only one being manipulative and controlling here..

I just tossed it back at her and said 'why don't you try to figure out if and how you can make it right with me?' If she's not willing to do the work I"m not either. I don't need that kind of M.

wnh, I think it is very good that she can clearly see the damage she is causing in her marriage. She needs to see what she is doing to you. This is why its real important to be honest about your feelings. A WS can respect honest feelings, they can't respect sweetness and light in response to cruelty.

You think you are on the brink of D, I think you are on the brink of recovery because you are now being honest. Any chance you could get in some MC with Steve Harley? He is expensive [$185] but he could probably give you a solid plan for recovery and would be well worth the money.

I think you are doing great! I know you are worn down, but her interest in your marriage is very encouraging. Keep up the honesty, my friend! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

It's been hard to face up to the fiasco this M has become.

For 5 months I've been reading HNHN, SAA and about 10 others like them. They were all over my study. I put those in the basement, and replaced them with "Be a Great Divorced Dad" etc. That's pretty revealing about my attitude change. WW may have noticed the change in the books; I'm sure she noticed the change in my attitude towards her.

I really care for her, and will do what I need to to put the M back together. The question is what she is willing to do. Based on her recent behavior there's a good chance she won't be willing to do much. If so, we could be closer to the brink.

You sound like you are burning out. Am I hearing correctly?

wnh, you seem to be getting a postive reaction from her when you assert yourself and show your honest feelings. Do you think that you have been a conflict avoider in the past and avoided asserting yourself?

p.s. I agree that the old marriage should die, regardless of how this turns out.

Sometimes I think God wants us to split. Just when WW was showing some interest in working on things we had a blowup. Probably accidental - misunderstanding combined with high tension on both sides leading to pretty hard feelings both ways.

She saw IC today and came back with a big case of 'boundary' mentality - our IC really preaches that approach. "Here's my boundary take it or leave it". The way she serves it up, and the way I receive it, that approach is almost sure to preclude reaching a happy solution.

I'm starting to really dislike that approach, it seems completely opposed to the spirit of compromise, give and take, work out a solution, POJA, etc.

wnh...

I suggest you try a phone session, with your wife, with the Harley's. They are the best. They have a knack for "getting through" to WS's.

You have got to train yourself to be mentally prepared each day of this ordeal to be positive and pro-marriage. A WW is not impressed with a mopey, depressed, woe-is-me demeanor.

Strap on some Positive Mental Attitude, some resistance to her negativity, and some total effort in your Plan A and give this another "hard core" try through Thanksgiving. If you are not seeing some positive results, and you think she's still in contact with the OM, go to a really strong, committed, DARK, Plan B, and give her a taste of life without a loving, committed husband.

I know it's hard, really, really hard, but it can be done.

Best wishes,
SD

wnh...

Train yourself to listen to what she says carefully, and even if you are suspicious that she's got ulterior motives, turn it around with "babble", or find a creative way to make it positive. Don't be totally on the defensive all the time. Make allowances for her having good intentions towards a future with you, and even more, make allowances for her NOT KNOWING how to approach you during this time.

There is lots of time for apologies and remorse in the future.

Best wishes,
SD

Thanks SD. Sounds like she's somewhat open and willing right now. Although I've been the difficult one in the last couple of weeks, maybe now I am also somewhat open and willing. The stars may be aligned for the first time in months.

We plan to talk a bit tomorrow night. My thought is to see if we can put together some sort of plan for recovery, including how to build a new better M. It's scary talking though since the last few talks have been disastrous.

I think I'll tread lightly, and start by asking her if she feels it's a safe time to have a conversation. If it's not safe - i.e. if either of us comes with a chip on our shoulder or other nonconstructive attitude - the talk would only be harmful so we're better off to delay it.

Off topic; did you see I'm an old Jayhawker? You too maybe?

Didn't attend KU, but have been a fan since my older brother attended there in 1959. You a native Kansan?

SD

wnh, it sound like you are making progress. Recovery is supposed to be the hard part so expect things to be difficult for a while.

Your W seems to be interested in recovering, this is excellent news. It will take and time and lots of PATIENCE on your part so don't give up.

I know it's hard, but the end result will be worth it.