Its hard for everyone, but It doesn't have to be this difficult on her or the kids!!!!<BR> <p>[This message has been edited by other man (edited August 17, 1999).]

hello om,<BR>This board is for posting thoughts. opinions, ideas, feelings, etc! That is why we say what we feel is right and wrong, but are always open to others. That is why we are here....please do not draw the conclusion that because we have our own issues we are incapable of sensitivity and cannot offer an opinion! Most of us are quite capable of taking the criticism along with the praise. <BR>It is not always so rosey around here! If I post something, then certainly I can expect quite a few differing comments in response. Some are harsh, others are soft, all are useful!! We all bring a variety of expereinces with us.

One of the things I really love about this board is the amount of compassion for people that have done bad things. The trick is to acknowledge the bad behavior and then seek to do what's right. The betrayers that visit here are generally in the position of trying to rebuild their marriages or getting their hurt spouses to work with them. The betrayed normally acknowledge the mistakes they made in the marriage and are willing to take their share of responsibility for marital problems (although usually not the affair). As long as people participate this way, the board is open and supportive.<P>When people get flamed, it's usually when they fail to take responsibility for their actions. There is little compassion for that behavior. Other Man, in your early posts, you didn't seem to take much responsibility, although I think some of that may have been misunderstood, as you were trying to defend yourself. <P>One other comment. Why do you feel a need to defend yourself here, in an anonymous forum? Yes, it's remotely possible that someone reading this might know you and be able to figure out who you are, but this is a needle in a haystack possibility. As far as Empty telling lies, no one can say if he did, but why would he? It's not like this forum is a newsletter to friends and family. Whatever Empty is or isn't, I'm pretty sure he came here earnestly for help through his crisis. The forum is generous to people who do that, no matter what they have done.<P>Whatever you have all done in the past, you have received great advice for the future. It's never to late to start doing the right things, and your decision to stay away from Mir clearly is right. She needs to think through things and so does Empty, without 3rd party interference.

MIR, I LOVE YOU AND GOOD LUCK. <p>[This message has been edited by other man (edited August 17, 1999).]

om,<BR>I am not judging you and her at all. I am trying to tell you that your choices have hurt other people in ways you can not imagine. If you and mir decide to stay together, I say whatever..just realize that the boys and empty are having a hard time dealing no matter what you and her decide. You and her have all the power to decide and it is really hard when no matter what you do you can not control how another person feels. If you told me to pick sides, I would say I pick the kids side. you all need to do all you can to help them feel loved and secure. as far as our (forums) oppinions, you asked, what exactly did you expect. and yes my marriage had a few bumps but at no fault of mine. I am a good wife and great mother. I have lived my life trying to do all to please my husband and children. I have spent every day for the last 13 years devoted to him and always reading and thinking of new ideas in order to keep him happy. He says he made a mistake and never intended on leaving me, he says he loves me and will do anything to be here with me, says he will die without me.....he says I am perfect and he has no clue why he did except stupidity. well no matter what he says, or does he has crushed me and yes i am doing my best to forgive but i will never feel the way i did before. i cant trust my own heart. <BR>loving him with all i am is the only thing that i did wrong and when someone attacks me for his mistake i get really mad......i have no clue who you are or who they are but i know the kids are hurting and all of you adults need to help them. no matter what yall decide the living arrangements will be...<P>------------------<BR>INLOVE.....<BR>LOVE HAPPY ENDINGS HOPING WE ALL HAVE ONE...<P>

Just to clear the air.. I am a friend of Mir and MT's. I have known them both for the last four years. In all actuality, Mir and I were closer than MT and I. She and I spend almost every waking minute together. During the 4 years that I have known them both, they were always the perfect couple. I really envied what they had. They were the best of friends. I am not sure what happened exactly, what I do know is that Mir totally changed once OM came into her life. He destroyed a beautiful marriage and a great friendship. We would all be lucky to have what they once had. Mir only had great things to say about Mt. Never ever heard a negative word and she and I talked about everything. I knew all about her as she did about me. Not only did OM destroy MT and Mir's relationship, but her and mine as well. I tried talking to OM (FOR OVER 4 HOURS I MIGHT ADD) and came to find, that he truly believes that his and her relationship was "God" Blessed and that "fate" alone had brought them together. I have never to this day seen MT be mean to any of the boys, I infact, have seen MT work his ao to support all of them and give them a good life. OM was the one that seemed derranged to me. Anyone that would believe that God would agree with an affair is derranged. The boys are the ones who have suffered the most. Their family has been broken apart leaving them all to try and pick up the pieces and the little ones to try and make sense of it all. MT and I are now the best of friends. I have seen him go through the worst of the worst and keep sanity throughout it all. I know that Mir still loves MT, but that she is confused. So when OM states that she is going to file, he is the one lying and seeing what he wants to see. Mir is trying to forgive herself and find herself. I think their marriage has what it takes to survive if OM WOULD JUST BE A MAN!!! A REAL MAN!!! AND LET THEM BE!!! But I already know, that he doesn't even begin to understand what being a man is all about. He has being a pitiful home wrecker down pat. OM GROW UP AND BE A MAN. FIND THE LOVE OF YOUR LIFE AND DON'T ABUSE THEM, AND CHASE THEM AROUND THE YARD WITH A KNIFE!!!!! You need to learn the meaning of "love" which is what Mir and MT share. This is something you are not capable of. You are a controlling and manipulative person, that cannot comprehend the meaning of true love. You are not even capable of supporting yourself, or YOUR BIRTH CHILDREN FOR THAT MATTER!!! Speaking of that OM.. where are your birth children.. or do you even know.. when was the last time you fathered them. It is not who provides the ingredients to make them, it is who clothes, feeds, hugs, loves.. who is there.. and where are you NO WHERE!!!! You only want what isn't yours, because you are not man enough to take care of what was yours. As of matter of fact.. didn't your ex-wives take your children away with a restraining order???? That is a good father and a MAN for you. "Good Bye Cruel World"... you sound so stupid and immature. Like a spoiled child trying to get his way. And who is manipulative? OM? Sounds like you are trying to manipulate Mir by threating suicide again. If I were her, I would want to see if you were man enough to do it.. I think you are a low life WIMP!!! PROBABLY CANNOT EVEN ZIP YOUR OWN ZIPPER WITHOUT HELP. I have spent a great deal of time around them all during this, and have never formally met OM, but came to know his kind well. I have seen the pain and anguish he caused 6 people and how he tore a loving family apart. MT's biggest fault was that he loved them all so much that he spent a lot of time at work trying to make a living for his wife, 2 children that were not his biological children, and 2 that were. It is true that he was the disiplinary in the household, but that was also Mir's doings. I was there many nights where she asked Mt to punish the children because they would not listen to her. The oldest son was just as big and as strong as she... it took MT to disipline him. Either that, or he would have run over her and the entire household. He is a typical teenager growing up today. One thing I have learned is that there are no rights or wrongs in a marriage or raising children.. there is only hind sight and it is always 20/20. <P>I know one thing for sure, Mir is confused and needs to find herself and her way. I anxiously await the day that she and MT are reunited with the entire family. I love and care for all 6 of them dearly. For it has been through thick and thin we've leaned on one another, and through it all we still have each other. Mir you are in my thoughts and prayers, I love you more than you will ever know. I await the day when we are all reunited,<P>As for OM... you need to Grow up.. God did not join you and this is completely absurd. <P>Mir you and MT were meant for each other.. He is your soulmate and you are his.. you know it somewhere deep inside. We all make mistakes and lose our way... I am here to help you find your way back.. <P>All my love to you guys.. and Let the TRUTH BE KNOWN FROM SOMEONE WHO WAS THERE. OM is not in a place to say what MT did or did not do.. OM wasn't there nor around or thought of, he destroyed the family love and values that existed... MT and Mir were a happily married struggling couple. <P>But it's like I said.. Hind Sight is always 20/20 and we can all do better. Mir I am here for you and always will be.. After all, we almost share the same birthday... Call me, I am here.. Until next time.. <P>Friend2U2<P>------------------<BR>"Despite Everything, I still believe people are basically good at heart" Anne Frank - "Diary of Anne Frank"<P>[This message has been edited by Friend2u2 (edited August 17, 1999).]<p>[This message has been edited by Friend2u2 (edited August 17, 1999).]

am i the only one that is not sure who is who on this thread? Maybe my skeptic nature?

CL:<P>I'm right there with you. I'm wondering whether OM and Friend2U2 are real people or just alter egos of Empty and Mir.<P>To Anyone Who Cares:<P>Here's the bottom line. I feel sorry for ANYBODY who has to go through what any of us have gone through, betrayed AND betrayers. It's not something I would wish on anyone. But, the purpose of this place is to find out what's wrong and to FIX the marriage. It is NOT to garner support for one side against the other. If Empty and Mir want to try to FIX their marriage, I'm here to help, to offer advice if it's asked for, and bounce ideas off of. If all they want to do is fight, GO SOMEPLACE ELSE.<P>--------<P>Other Man,<P>Whether you choose to read and post here or not is YOUR decision. However, I think most people here will agree with me when I say that what qualifies us to give our opinions as to the rightness and wrongness of affairs is the fact that we HAVE lived through them.<P>If you want to mess up Mir's life any further, keep fooling yourself into thinking you're doing the "right" thing. Some day, you WILL realize that your actions were exactly the WRONG thing. Congratulations on helping to spoil a marriage. You should be very proud.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

Cl, Lone Star. It keeps getting weirder. Suicide note from OM?! We had dialog going and then Goodbye world???? <BR>It didn't look like anyone was being too mean to him like we were to other homewreckers. It was point counterpoint until Goodbye world. I guess he just couldn't take it. THis is typical of people of his ilk. They try to justify because they have themselves convinced that they are right. Then when others disagree and show them the failing of their logic, they run leaving a smokescreen of accuisations of misunderstandings.<P>I, was trying to show him the errors of his ways. Not an easy task since he is blinded by love. Something all of us have in common. This was for the sole purpose of preventing him from further hurt. He had already lost his job and was setting himself up for further failure due to his contorted justifications. In the long run, he has more to lose than MT or Mir in this matter.<P>I believe friend2u2. The descriptions are in line with what both MT and Mir have posted and the way OM departed, leads me to believe that he is not playing with a full deck.<P>THanks for the insight frien2u2.<P>OM, if you're still around, Stay in LA. THere are plenty of jobs and women to be had. Put all of this behind you and build a new life. Do you really want to be mired in this mess for the reat of your life?

Sorry Mir for posting on here and putiing more of your life on here. . I Love You Mir, and miss everyone in Dallas. <p>[This message has been edited by other man (edited August 17, 1999).]

Om, getting a little complicated and frustrating for you? But you helped make this mess and the only way for you to clean it up is to get out of it. You're making Mir sound like some helpess child that cannot fend for herself. <P>Of all that is said here wheather it is true or untrue, is one undeniable fact:<BR>You are the OM. <BR>Ergo, get out of their relationship and let fall or repair as it may.<BR>With you in contact with Mir, you will never know if she truly meant to leave him or if she only left him because of you. <BR>Once this grown Mother of four figures out what she really wants and takes the appropriate steps, she will then be able to notify you.<P>And for crying out loud stop the "goodbye world" stuff. It makes you look silly.<BR>I was following your story and making sense of it until that. <P>It looks like 3 immature self-centered adults and four frightened insecure children. Why don't you do the right (mature) thing and completly withdraw?

excuse me, om, but I thought you were going to go out to the garden and eat worms and die last night, <BR>Look what we have ALL been saying to you is that Empty and HIS wifes problems are NONE of your business, Were you standing there with them taking those vows along with them when they married ? I some how think not. OK Mir was unhappy in her marriage, I wonder how much you "helped" her see that ? Nobody has attacked you here, believe me, I have seen much worse! OM, you need to get over yourself, you talk about the friend coming on here and posting, well aren't you just as guilty of trying to manipulate Mir as you have accussed this friend of being ? And you know it's really not cool for YOU to decide to tell where Empty and his w are livung in an open forum like this. If they wanted us to know, they would have told us themselves. All you seem to want is for someone to say oh yes you are the good guy and Empty is the bad guy, it doesn't work like that. As I said before, their marriage is NONE of your business, yet you seem to have put yourself in it, <BR>You keep harping on what a good mother she is, hey I have no doubts about her being the best mother she knows how to be, I don't think anyone here has said anything bad about her parenting skills. So why do you keep that up ? As a matter of fact, I don't recall anyone saying anything bad about her, execpt that if she was that unhappy, she should have left the marriage BEFORE she got with you. Could it be you are looking for brownie points ? I wonder how Mir feels about you doing this ? And I wonder why you chose to post this . Why is it ok for you to post here and not Empty ? I haven't seen him posting to you, seems to me you just want to rub it in of course it's jmo, <BR><P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

Other Man:<P> <BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Both of you are using this site to manipulate her and to try to deface me. <HR></BLOCKQUOTE><P>And you don't see how YOU have done exactly the same thing here? Wake up and get a clue. And, while you're at it, get a life of your own.<P>------------------<BR>/// Lone Star * ///<P><BR>

I am reading between the lines. I am hearing Mir say that she has some serious issues with Empty not addressing, and in her frustration she developed a relationship with otherman, and because Empty posted here, she feels he betrayed her. <P>I am hearing Empty saying that he is very concerned for children and wife, wants to work on marriage - and some very serious concerns about the other man hurting or harming not only his relationship with his wife, but his wife's body, - and possibly the children.<P>I am hearing the other man saying that he is totally justified in saving Mir from Empty, and that their relationship is bliss, and a hint of a threat to himself or anyone who tries to save the marriage that HE has decided is over.<P>**********<P>Otherman is NOT qualified to help Mir in anyway. There are professionals that can help Mir. He is hurting her, and actually manipulating the situation by his butting his nose in. He has absolutely no right to threaten anyone, including himself. I can see right through his "innocense". Otherman is a very dangerous person.<P>Empty has a pornographic problem - I have read his posts deluding to this problem. This is fixable, and serious. Mir is frustrated in her ability to fix this problem, and he should acknowledge this and seek outside help to resolve these issues.<P>Mir, you need professional counseling - and you are fortunate otherman decided to give you time and space. Get help from your crisis center, and get strong. Learn how to take charge of your life, and value yourself. You are a loving mother - and they can help you get your head on straight. If Empty decides to help himself, and you do too, you can have the marriage you want. Fix yourselves first. <P><BR>

Typical denial. Also has the "Knight in Shining Armor" complex. Those of us that have been there are trying to tell him and he sees himself as the exception. THe saviour of Maiden Mir. Like she needs a guy without a job. His life is so pathetic that he cannot get a woman of hs own. He needs to find her and take her from someone else because it feeds his needy ego to be so depended on. How the poor oppressed Mir and her boys survive without me? <BR>Somewhere in there, OM, is a person who knows the right thing to do. I just hope that for your sake, he prevails..

This is a ridiculous thread you started "other man." First of all, we don't know ANY of you from Adam. Why in the world would you come onto a MARRIAGEBUILDERS site and attempt to convince people who don't even know you that your intentions are honorable. Why do you even care what any of us think? This is ridiculous. <P>Listen up, you will convince NO ONE here about your integrity. YOU are completely wasting your time by posting here. Don't you have better things to do?

Lark, go easy on OM. THis gives us a chance to see inside the mind of an uncurable OM. I have yet to see self-deception that goes this deep.<P>OM, come back when you are ready to talk some more.

It seems they ALL need serious psycho-therapy! This thread makes my problems seem as simple as a broken fingernail. Thanks for this story...i feel a whole lot better about my life, because I sure as hell wouldn't want to be involved in this mess. There seems to be 20 stories involved in this and no one seems to know that when it gets this out-of-hand that it is time to let that BS go and get some sanity in your life. GOOD LUCK

hmmm, I wonder why other man edited all his post ? Possibly to make it look like he just came here to profess his undying love and we flamed him for it ?<P>------------------<BR>Just call me - Deb<BR>------------------------<BR>The only day I can do anything about is today, yesterday is gone, tomorrow is not yet mine.<P>

I'll tell you what Deb, the otherman is very very very manipulative, and his threats concern me in a very strong strong way. I do not trust him, and hope Mir heeds a warning to STAY AWAY, end contact COMPLETELY - and get to a crisis center for some professional help, and shield her children from this person. I believe he is capable of anything. <P>Empty needs to get some help too. It is fixable. <P>But, Mir - if you are out there, get some help. Protect yourself, and learn how to take charge of your own life and create the outcomes in your life that YOU want, and not what just happens.<P>God Bless.