((((camp))))

I have been in your "mood" many of days since I have found out about the A. We DO torture ourselves, what do they have that we don't, we are constantly compairing and in our heads we do not measure up! Then those feeling seep out and we don't measure up, we become a victim (again!). It is so easy to get in that slump and so hard to pull back out.

I had a slump Sunday after finding an old email (but it was one written after he came back and promised no contact) After reading a few replies from these smart people on this site I am taking a piece of advice from each of them and going to work on ME and still keep an eye out.

We deserve to be happy, we deserve to have fun, we deserve to feel good about us (even IF we are a little pudgy, crosseyed, or one leg is longer than the other). NOt saying I am any of those things...lol!

I thought about this the last few days....

Who likes to hang around a person who is down in the dumps, feeling sorry for themself, always on edge? I don't...yet, that is how I have acted on many days since he returned.

You know what makes us better than the pieces of crap they fooled around with???? WE have been faithful to our spouses, WE took them back, WE are working on forgiveness, WE are trying to make our marriages work, WE are trying to put our hurt aside and move on!!!

Sometimes Camp I think we have to put our hurt in a place they can't see and show them the fun us, the loving us, the real us and make THEM see we are sooooooooooooo much better than what they "thought" was a relationship. We give them security and unconditional love, we know all their nasty habits, we have seen them at their worst!

One other thing I woke up to in the last few days is I can't be with my H 24-7. IF he is ****** bent on contacting her I have zero control over that. If I show him all my love and put faith in him and he screws up again...well, then it is on him. I have to do my part and he has to do his, that is the only way it will work. I can't make him do what is right. So, I could go on like this for years being edgy and moody, not having fun and show him my worst side. I think that would help in pushing him right back out the door. No, I want him to see my best side (which I KNOW is better than any side the OW has). IF he ever even thinks about having another A I want him to stop and think what he will be throwing away.

me-whoisfeelingspunkytoday!:)

My counselor's suggestion on this was to push the images out of my mind- to literally think,"***** you, OW, I am not going to let you ruin my M, I am taking my life back." This helped me a lot. I was able to channel some of my anger. That is not to say at all that the images do not come to me still because they do <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> And, it is always horrible. You may need ADs to stop "obsessing" about it. This helped me quite a bit too. And, I think they are helping my H too.



This will kill your M. You are better for her than him. The A is a fantasy, you are her life. It's like comparing her to a woman in a magazine.




Make sure you apologize and explain that you were having a hard time that day. You have things that you are suffering through as well. Do not beat yourself up over it. You need to learn to work through those feelings or it will hurt you in the long run. Everything you are feeling is completely normal. Give yourself the same understanding you have been giving to her <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

^bump

Imp, I see in your sig that you believed you and the OM could remain 'friends'. My wife also believes that she and her partner in adultery can be 'friends', SHE says because of the baby. I have made it clear that NC is a boundary of mine and that contact will kill our relationship. I believe she is still speaking to him on the phone at the very least.

What made you realize that NC was needed? WHile you were in contact with the OM were you also committed to your marriage, at least in your own mind? Or were you still undecided? Did being 'friends' mean that you also had physical (not necessarily intimate) contact? How did continued contact affect your efforts at salvaging your relationship with your spouse?

I'm asking these questions because I'm not sure how much of my wife's resistance to emotional and sexual intimacy is generated by her childhood rape issues and how much comes from what I believe is a continuing relationship with her partner in adultery. I'm trying real hard to understand the process by which a person maintains TWO relationships at the same time.

bumping this up, I think that is a question that many would like to know. Very interested in the answers.

You are right. It must be NC. This is not negotiable. It is the only way it will work. They cannot be friends and your M survive. She is cake-eating if they are still talking. You are not in R. If they are, you need to choose an end date for Plan A (Harleys tell you what the recommended time for Plan A is. Make sure you make this step). Then, start trying to meet her ENs, so you are the attractive alternative. Change the things about yourself that made this A possible and do not love bust. Respectfully tell her you want her to commit to the M and go NC with the OM. Expose the A if she does not end it-- this is crucial. This will help put pressure on the A. If your Plan A deadline comes and she is still cake-eating, you go to Plan B before you lose all your love for her.


I am sorry, whose baby is this?





NC came after the last D-day with my H's A. I had been reading on MBers about As and realized NC was necessary.

I was totally committed to making our M work, yes. I was not undecided at all. I knew I wanted my H and was working to make that happen. But, my H was in his A and we had a few false recoveries from his (each time I found more and more out about the nature of their relationship). When my H would not give up the OW, I would find myself talking with the OM more. This, in turn, made my H feel he did not want to give up OW (we only recently shared these feelings with each other. We never discussed this as it was happening). And, round and round we went and hurt each other terribly.

OM and I would still hug on occasion-- usually when I was upset about what my H was doing or when we had had another false recovery. I still foggily believed OM and I could be friends. At that point, I wanted the connection with him because he was telling me how wonderful I was and he loved me while my H did not even seem to want me or love me. Very powerful addiction. He said all the right things at a time when I was hurting terribly. I was not ready to give that up. But, when I ended the romantic relationship and committed to my M, I was absolutely committed to my M. I was leaning on him for the friendship (and, now, I realize the things he was saying/doing that stroked my bruised ego), but I was completely committed to my M. I felt like my H had a lot of wonderful qualities and there were many reasons I still wanted my M. My heart was in my M--it just kept getting crushed.

I take full responsibilty for not going to NC (I don't think I knew much about MBers yet. That came later, so I was in the dark about all this stuff at first.) NC is very hard because it is committing to never speaking to someone who has made you feel good. It's not typical to end a relationship with someone who has not hurt you.




Because if she is talking to him, he is still meeting some of her ENs. But, so are you. She does not want to lose either of you, so she is cake-eating. That is why if she is still talking with him you need to tell her this is not OK and start Plan A.

^bump

I'm not lost Imp, not from this thread anyway. I'm just having a really terrible time emotionally right now. I'm convinced that they are still in contact and it's ripping me apart. Getting harder and harder to apply plan A. Problem is plan B will mean losing our home and most of our posessions, everything we've built together. And I have a nine year old son who will be hurt terribly if we break up. It will kill me to leave the baby as well. To answer your question the baby is my wife's and her partner in adultery's, not mine. He was six months old on d-day and I love him with my whole heart.

If I could believe my wife's words and actions then I would be sure that we were well on the road to recovery. But I can't reconcile the fact that she is still talking to him and lying about it. I can see a motive for that in her fear of my finding out that she is violating my NC boundary. Our MC says that perhaps I could see it as a badly damaged individual trying their best to do the right thing in the best way they know how. My problem is that I know that as long as she speaks to him (I'm 99% sure that there has been no physical contact as yet) she cannot hope to heal our relationship. It hurt me deeply to have her say yesterday that she still missed him. And her lying to me about this issue makes me doubt everything else. So I am muddling through the best way I can and trying as hard as I can to stick to plan A for the time being. It's sometimes hard to come here because of all the pain I see expressed by so many people. It echoes my own.

But I'm not giving up and please stick with me. You two have been of great comfort to me. Imp, I read your post and I think I missed your answer to my questions:
" What made you realize that NC was needed ?
While you were in contact with the OM were you also committed to your marriage, at least in your own mind? Or were you still undecided?
Did being 'friends' mean that you also had physical (not necessarily intimate) contact?
How did continued contact affect your efforts at salvaging your relationship with your spouse? "
I mean, I read what you wrote but I was really asking about what was going on inside you while you were having your affair. I do apologise if I seem insistent or thick headed. I'm just trying to get some insight into my wife's thoughts that will give me something to pin my hopes on. Thank you for the bump ma'am as well. You are some kind of lady <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

First things first, you need to get proof if there is still contact. Then, you know what you need to do next. Plan A vs Recovery and dealing with WD. Are you familiar with all of the things that need to happen if contact is on-going vs being in R?



Campdog, I am so sorry. This makes everything so much harder. Do you visit the part of the forums about other children? They can guide you better on this area. What has the agreement been about the baby and OM's role in his life? Have you legally adopted the baby, so if this does not work out with your W, you do not lose your baby son too? Does OM know this is his baby?



I can completely understand this. I had a really hard time when my H kept saying we were in R, and we were going to MC, and then I caught him again. Very hard to trust and open your heart when this is happening. You should not have to reconcile lying. Lying is not OK. If she wants R, then she needs to stop lying. Do you have proof she is still lying or just suspect? Why do you suspect?




Get a new MC. NC is a reasonable boundary, unless, there is an agreement that OM is part of the baby's life. But, even in this sitch, you could establish an intermediary to take care of any issues with regards to the baby, so your W has no excuses to talk with him. She is cake-eating if she is still contacting him and she is not supposed to. Again, because of the OC issue, this makes things a bit more difficult. But, I am sure others in the same sitch can give you some guidance on all of this.



I know, it does with me too everytime he says it, but I try to remind myself he is being honest with me and that is a good sign.


Of course it does. If you cannot trust her, you cannot trust her. That is why I suggested you choose and end-date for Plan A. You cannot do it indefinitely. But, you need to figure out whether you are in Plan A or R.



I have the same problem. And, it makes it harder for me because I realize I caused my H the same exact pain. It sure has helped to yank me out of the fog more quickly understanding even more what I put him through.



Let me give you the quick synopsis and see if this answers things better. Let me know, so I can clarify anything if needed. I had no physical interest in OM. The only reason I had talked to him the first time was someone referred me to him for a problem. We talked that day about the problem and then he started e-mailing occasionally. Nothing inappropriate. As time wore on, we ended up talking in person. And, this started happening more and more. At this point, I am not yet realizing this is not OK. As we talked more, I wanted to talk more. I looked forward to it. Then, I started having an attraction. At one point, he kissed me. I had asked (prior to this) that it not cross the physical line as I recognized that things were getting out of hand. I so wish I had stopped things at this point. But, the addiction was in full swing, and quite honestly, I liked the way he made me feel. He cared about what I had to say and we talked for hours (H had not done this for some time and I did not know how much I had missed it. Also, seemed as though H only wanted me for SF and that had hurt me more than I admitted to myself. And, my H and I had had a lot of stressors over a few years. He had been my everything, but when I needed him the most, he was not there. I had started to resent him. These are not excuses, just explaining what was happening.)

Anyway, OM and I still spent most of our time talking. He had a large need for this too. But, I had started having moments when the fog cleared that I knew he was not who I wanted. I wanted my H. And, I would ask myself why I was risking everything if I did not want to lose my M. (Unbeknownst to me, my H was already starting an A around this time). I had already started backing away from my A prior to discovering my H's A. The physical aspect had been over for a little while and I was talking with OM less.

Then, one day, I discovered phone records revealing my H's A. I wanted to beleive him when he said they were just friends. I asked that they not talk as much and that he not discuss our M with her. So, we had both committed to the M that day (I thought). But, I believed I could still be friends with OM. (I knew my committment was to my M, so I did not see why we could not be friends. I do now.) So, I did not push for NC between H and OW. But, my heart was truly in the M from that point forward. Has been ever since. I was cake-eating without knowing it, but I truly wanted my M to make it. I had told the OM that the A was over. But, I still talked with him, just not as much.

But, as the weeks wore on, I would catch my H and more would be revealed about his relationship with the OW. He would again say he was committed to the M. Each time, I suspected even more that it was an A, not just a friendship that had gotten too close. Each time this happened, I would end up talking with OM more (I had shut out a lot of my friends when I was in my A, so he was the one I usually spoke to when I was upset. Again, not saying this was OK, just telling you what happened). One day, I got proof of the PA and H admitted it. Again, big tears and apologies on his part. Then, I told him he had to decide because this OP was not welcome in his life anymore. He agreed again he wanted the M. But, a few weeks later, I caught him talking with her again and I told him to move out. He said he did not want to, and the next day, he told OW not to talk to him anymore. That night, we sent our NC letters. On a side note, my H did not ask me for NC with OM until that last day. So, I was able to cake-eat longer than I would have if he had forced me to decide. Not his fault, just telling you what was happening.

Like I said, I did not understand about NC until I found MBers. Once I read about all of this, it made sense to me that I could not keep OM as a friend. Yet, I was still cake-eating. It took my H saying I had to write a NC letter too, to actually write it. But, I was truly committed to my M. Now, I recognize that we could not have made it if either of us kept in contact with the OP.

Being friends with OM meant if I was crying, he would hug me. That was about it. Occasionally, he would hold my hand for a moment, but it was not sexual. I was leaning on OM with regards to the pain of what my H was doing. And, OM was saying all these kind things and I needed that so badly at this point. It made it very difficult to want to end the A, when he was the only one who seemed to value me at all (I had not felt valued by H during the M, and his being unwilling to give OW up, just reinforced all those feelings.) And, he was supporting me through the pain of my H's A. Again, not OK, but I was not aware of the need for NC at that point. And, even if I had been, I do not think I would have been strong enough at that point (during H's A) to stop.

Continued contact damaged my efforts at saving my M horribly (though I did not know this at the time as my H was not sharing his feelings about much of this). It was not that he had asked for NC and I agreed and then lied about it. Not at all. My H was aware I was still talking with OM and that made him not want to give up OW he told me just recently. So, I was not breaking a promise, but it was still making huge withdrawals from my H's LB. My H had been telling me he was OK with me talking with OM.

Problem is that H did the same as I did (had an A and did not meet ENs for years), but cannot seem to let go of the anger so we can re-build. I sometimes wonder whether his anger will be what kills our M. Many times, it feels like there was only one A-- mine.

^^bump^^

Thanks for your words Imp. Sorry it took so long for me to answer but sometimes it's hard for me to come here and see all the pain. It kills me about that poor Foxor kid and some of the other posts are REALLY tough. Can't seem to not read them though.

Just some things. I can't be too specific but I KNOW that they are in phone contact and that she is lying about it. I don't KNOW anything else but physical contact is not impossible although she denies it. I know that if plan A is unsuccessful then it's time for NC with my spouse but my situation is complicated. I'm unsure if my course is so cut and dry.

I have a ridiculously long thread in the Pregnancy/Child forum if you want to spend a week or so reading my sorry saga concerning my son.
To answer your questions I am legally my son's father at the present time and I am named as the father on the birth certificate. The OM knows that the baby is his and has even told my wife that he wants the baby to carry his name! My wife's partner in adultery must first prove paternity in court and then sue for visitation rights. My wife has said that we will pursue the court option but I mistrust her intentions. I believe she is resisting coming to a decision about a private visitation agreement because I have made it clear that such visits will involve me handing over our baby NOT her. This would mean severing the tie that the child has made between her and her partner in adultery. She says I am wrong about that but I am not so sure.

My MC is right when he says that my wife is badly damaged emotionally. She is a victim of child rape and an emotionally deprived upbringing. I didn't know these things when we got together. She herself only recovered the memory of the rapes five weeks ago after repressing them for 25 years. I thought she was just young (she is 17 years my junior) and would eventually learn the lessons about love and relationships that I had. When she didn't come around I turned into a fat, angry spouse and helped sow the seeds for my wife's affair. It was only through the efforts of counseling that I was able to see the true situation.

I read what you wrote about your own affair and I'm still confused. If I'm understanding you, you loved your husband and didn't want to leave the relationship even while you loved another man and were having sex with him. My wife says the same thing and that's what I'm confused about. How did you reconcile these conflicting emotions? How did you leave the arms of one man who gave you the things you craved and then go to another man and maintain any sort of relationship with HIM? I'm asking you these questions because when I ask my wife she says she doesn't know. I take that as saying she doesn't WANT to tell me, maybe because she seeks to save me from hurt feelings. She doesn't get it that the horrible truth would be better than the suppositions I torture myself with.

I feel like I'm just missing an important piece of the puzzle here. If I could understand my wife's ordering of her emotions and actions maybe I could wrap my mind around the whole issue of the lies and betrayals involved in her affair. NOT understanding means that I still look at her and wonder what is going on now. I'm sorry if I sound dense. Maybe I'm asking a question that CAN'T be answered. Am I?

bump

I never had the thoughts you are describing. I was not in love with the OM, but I loved him. I think I might have fallen in love eventually, but I started coming out of the fog and realizing what I wanted was my H, so it never got that far. When I realized I was putting my M in jeopardy, I knew I needed to stop and that is when I started pulling away from the A. In the beginning, the A was so addictive, I was not doing much actual thinking. Once I realized I wanted my M, I stopped the PA with the OM. I still was getting some ENs met by him, but I was not continuing the PA.



I do not know. I was cake-eating. My H met some needs and the OM met others. That is why Harley says A are the perfect solution to not having your needs met and why they are so hard to end. Maybe take her at face value. It's a DJ to assume she is lying. She probably does not know and is telling you the truth. What I tried to do with my H's A was to mentally place all the bad and hurtful things he did during this time in a bucket I called "the Affair". And, to realize all the things he did was because of the A. It made it easier for me to forgive those things, as opposed to looking at each individual act and be upset about it. But, you have a completely different sitch in that you are not in R if she is still having an EA with the OM.



I understand what you are doing, but in some ways, I think you are torturing yourself. It is probably something that will never be answered to your satisfaction and dwelling on it continously is probably hurting your M. But, I do understand as my H seems to do it too. Again, you are not in R, so you have all of that to deal with too. I am sorry for all that you are dealing with. I understand avoiding the posts. Today, a song was a trigger for me of my H'a A. I felt like my heart was being ripped out of my chest. When I think of the time that all this was happening, I have a hard time even looking at it because it is so incredibly painful. I can't think about it. It hurts too much <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Oh yeah, I know all about triggers. And you're right ma'am it DOES hurt too much. But how do we NOT think about it? Where do those thoughts go when we push them away? For me they lurk and jump out at unexpected moments. I would love to put this whole horror behind me and look only to the future but how do you ignore something so enormous without understanding?

Maybe there IS no understanding, only aceptance, forgiveness and moving on. I feel like I'm stuck and need something to give me a push in the right direction. You are in my prayers Imp, I know how hard it is for you. I also know God will hold you in His arms and give you what you need. Hang in there buddy. There's better days coming.

Just a quick note to say that I will be traveling for the next few weeks and won't be posting. I'm NOT dropping out and I'll try to grab an internet connection when I can. Good luck and God's blessings to you all. You will be in my thoughts and in my prayers.

-camp

That is what scares me the most. I am afraid that they will pop out at some point and damage me or the M.

One of my biggest strengths and/or faults is that if I can understand why something happened, I can forgive it. So, forgiving my H has been easier because of that and I do not want to spend another day in pain. I want to build a life with the man I love, dwelling on all of this helps nothing. I choose to move forward and not dwell. I choose to forgive. My H is not in this place at all, so I do get upset because I feel like it seems like I was the only one who cheated. And, I still believe that he somehow thinks his was OK or understandable, and therefore, more acceptable. I do not know what to tell you, campdog. My H is in the same place, so I have no great words of wisdom except, what are you gaining by not forgiving? Do you want to keep living like this? She can never undo what she did, but this is your chance at a better life. Seize it. Our MC said many times people see the A as a gift because of where the M eventually ends up.

Campdog, is it that you truly do not understand the A, or you cannot believe she could do these things? There is a difference. Have you read, SAA? Do you understand the anatomy of an A? This helped me understand myself, my A and his, so much better. It does not take away the pain. That will probably never go away, but will lessen as you rebuild a better life.



I think there is an attempt to understand, and when the BS cannot understand it, he/she gets stuck in anger and pain. You can choose to accept that you may never understand it. You can choose to forgive. What is not forgiving doing to help you or your M? Nothing. I know it is hard, but consider what I am saying please.

If you try to consider how she feels, understanding may be easier. I am not saying you accept what she is doing and condone it. I am trying to help you understand. Unexpectedly, she started caring for someone so much that the idea of not talking to him hurt. She may have felt neglected by you and suddenly, she feels alive and cherished. Suddenly, someone is saying and doing all the things she has been longing for. She realizes it is wrong and even attempts to break it off, but she can't-- the WD is too strong. She starts to re-write marital history (this is subconscious) and purposely pick fights with you to justify her A. She is getting more and more addicted and stopping the A is something she cannot see doing. Yet, she still has feelings for you or she would not still be living with you. She does not want to lose you either. She is torn. She knows she cannot have both, but she cannot imagine life without either of you. You do not make her make a choice, so she doesn't. In the meantime, the A gets more and more intense and your M has no chance at this point. Think of your W and how you felt about her in the beginning when things were so good and you loved her deeply. You craved being with her. You missed her when you were not with her. You had no responsibilities to weigh the relationship down. Now, imagine that someone told you you could never see or speak to her again. Cold turkey. Imagine what that feels like. It is not easy to do. That is why she has a hard time letting go of him. The longer they are together, the stronger the bond and the harder it is to break this up.

You have to focus on getting the A ended ASAP!! Please consider posting to Mimi, Mortarman, and/or Gimble and get help with ending the A.

I sure hope so <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I am hanging in here. I feel like I have been doing that for months. The hardest part was when my H was being nice to me around our anniversary. It felt so good to have him back and being treated with respect and caring and consideration. Unfortunately, the dates of a vacation he was planning triggered him and he has not been the same since. He says it is not the A, but he cannot tell me what it is. He has a lot of anger, but he is not even sure it is because of me. Yet, he LBs me and treats me disrespectfully. Sometimes, I feel like he sees me as the scum on the bottom of his shoe and sometimes, I wonder if he is with her again, that sure would explain alot. That's the problem with being the BS, ideas you would have never considered pop into your mind at the worst times. I just would appreciate some basic consideration and respect. I have a really hard time with the way I am being treated, especially because he was so kind to me after months of not being that way. It was almost harder to have him be nice and then take that away. And, very confusing.

Anyway, take care and have a safe trip. Come back and be ready to fight for your M and end this A!

Ladies, you still with me? Sure hope so.

Hey, Campdog. Welcome back <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I am literally falling asleep at the computer, so I will have to catch up later.

Hey, I read a bit about your W. Have you considered asking her what she needs when she is hurting? Not sure how she'd react, but it is a thought.

Greetings ma'am, glad you're still with me. How is it going with you? I hope things have gotten better for you since the last time we spoke. You seemed a little discouraged.

Anyway rather than write one of my usual enormous posts I thought I'd ask you to read the last few posts on this thread and tell me your thoughts. I actually thought of you as I wrote them but I wasn't sure if you were still around. I have some additional discussion I'd like to do that I think would be more productive in this thread. No need to rush, I am more than thankful for any time you can spare.

My wife also posted under the name baba. I promised not to read her posts and I haven't in hopes she would continue if she knew her thoughts were private from me. Perhaps you could reach out to her as well. Thanks.