Post deleted by Improving

Trix, faithful, you're wonderful. Thank you. Bless you. Isn't it so awful to say I feel lucky when a lot isn't as right as it could be, but I AM very fortunate. Fortunate to have so much. Fortunate to have a place to vent, to discuss and to be cared for and give care in return. . . Thank you!

That jerk had no intention of having me consult. He was only interested in "a date" and I'm quite sure He grabbed for a breast on purpose while hugging me hello. There was no mistake about the hands on my legs at supper. As if!!! Hello, he's old enough to be my dad. Yuck! In the end, he resorted to saying some terrible things to me about Phil and then when I challenged him, just lashed out at me. And those words are haunting even though I know they were mean, manipulative words spoken to make me feel vulnerable.

X-friend was late to supper so already our time was short. Most of supper was spent discussing -- the supper. All attempts to discuss business were evaded. I was already feeling like my time had been wasted when supper was finished... we're waiting for dessert and x-fiend asked about my travels. I told him I'd done some climbing. He asked was I with anyone. I said I went solo, but I'd grouped up briefly with a couple of cute pilots from France. He gave me a really gross leer and got very snitty. He asked me where I planned to take that to from here. I said no place, and kidded that my interest in them was strictly for sex and climbing.

Guess he couldn't take some friendly ribbing. You'd have to have been there... just trust me. He got pissed. Like angry pissed. And you know, when I had told Phil about my climbing expedition, he asked me a similar question in regard to the French dudes and he didn't get all huffy. But I liked that he asked if I was moving to France. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Even if I couldn't tell if it was a little jealousy or desire to have an ocean between us. Willing to take the former though.

x-fiend asks about G8 and the bombings in London. He wanted to know if I'd been there during that time. I said no, but Phil had been there right in the middle of it and I added that I was really glad that he wasn't harmed and came home safely. X-fiend got all huffy again and started snarking about convergence.

For those of you who aren't mathy, x-fiend was calling me stupid. Stupid for being happy Phil wasn't harmed when the probability of random factors coming together in exactly the right way so that Phil would have been in danger's path was close to zero. And since I rarely think it's worth my time to apply pure math to my purely emotional state, my response back was "So what?! I'm still glad that Phil wasn't harmed."

Snitty x-fiend tries to argue almost sure convvergence some more. And I try to change the subject so then x-fiend says I am impossible and dull. Nice. He sits back and relaxes and asks me am I seeing anyone. I said well, actually, I'm spending a bit more time with Phil lately. X-fiend makes snorting noises and says that some people think things happen to them for no reason and they never learn anything. Then he asks me how am I going to learn if I and then interrupted his own harangue to say - well maybe you like being ignorant.

X-friend asked me how Phil and his new girlfriend are. All light and breezy like I should be OK with it. It was so mean. I asked the waitress to bring the check please. I felt like the whole restaurant was trying NOT to listen. I was uncomfortable. I said that I had the impression things didn't work out. THen X-friend asked but don't you think they'll be getting married soon? Again, very mean.

(Is this how Phil feels when I ask him these kinds of questions? I know that he is the one who did the actions, but still, it was unpleasant being on the receiving end of that kind of thing.)

I said no, I don't think they will be getting married soon because she is already married. She would need a divorce first. The x-fiend started attacking Phil's faith in God and what am I supposed to say to that? None of this is anyone's business and obviously x-fiend waited until the very end of supper to rip into me. And I sat there thinking that if he pulled this kind of nasty I'm eruditier than you and I will veil my insults in mathematical terminology to try and trip you up or test your worthyness crap on Phil then Phil would have been ticked. Which, of course is what had been happening and of course, he was. Now Phil might not LIKE maths, but he can still hang. He's a smart guy...

And because I know a little about X-fiend's divorce situation I tried giving him an out and asked, are you telling me this beceause this happened to you? He said no, that his wife waited until they were divorced. That isn't exactly how the story went four years ago, and I was around for it, but I figured maybe he was just having a hard time see a friend go through something similar... My bad. That wasn't it... He really wanted to mess with me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

X-fiend got angrier still and said the A (with Phil) had been going on for longer than a year. I pointedly asked him how he knew that and he said "Oh Sally, surely you can't mean to say you don't know it's been going on for much longer than this past year. You just refuse to see. don't be... " and then he rolled his eyes at me and made a sneering face at me.

OK, I've learned a lot in the past couple of months about how naive I still am but with no answer what am I to believe? That my friend is just a huge mean prink bastridge who wants to make me suffer more than I already have by telling me vicious lies about Phil OR my friend knows truths I don't know and only a year plus later, professes to have known about A for a very long time but never managed to tell me???

Either way, with friends like that, who needs friends. Ticket came. I gave my credit card. Ticket disappeared. I sat. I got sharp. I said hey, if you have information that I don't you should tell me. Phil has been very consistent concerning the A timeline. I have no reason not to believe him. If you know something that I don't, you should tell me and be willing to back it up with some factual evidence instead of implying that I am naive and stupid.

x-fiend starts yelling at me in the restaurant now that I am disrespectful and judgmental and that I have no business speaking to him like that and that wasn't what he meant (oh really?) and I was jumping to conclusions and he doesn't have to back anything up because obviously there can be no rational discussion about this because I get overly emotional and it's obvious that I am not in control of myself.

OK, he was yelling at me. So I said I was sorry. Then he proceeded to yell at me that I am stupid some more. THe Ticket came. I signed. He asked are we done? I said yes. He insisted on walking me to my car. Asked me questions about the population of Bali. Like I know off the top of my head... I said I don't know - couple million people. He gave me a new disgusted look. We got to my car and he said "Let's keep in touch." I said. "Yeah. Let's"

And really, I was immediately sorry for not having seen what a rat this guy was so many years ago... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

But today the A talk is rattling around in my melon and I'm practically poisonous with ill-will toward Phil because I don't KNOW. I can only hope he told me the truth and that I really am NOT as stupid as x-fiend says I am. And all of those other things that rattle around in the BS head.... I'm a headachey mess. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> And thing is, if all of this is Phil putting on a show and lying to play me then none of it makes much difference. He isn't taking more than time at this point. I'm the one giving my heart away. If it turns out that Phil really IS making an effort, but isn't going too fast, well, he hasn't done anything wrong in a while. He's trying very hard to overcome past problems and he deserves the opportunity to make amends.

It's that whole trust thing. Except right now I don't trust Phil but I have to trust a little or there will be no recovery ever. No? I have to be true to my heart -- In the end, I have to live with myself and the decisions I make. Until I am satisfied that this sit. is one thing or another, I'm going to decide not to decide...

What's that circular logic? Everything is OK in the end so if things aren't OK, then it must not be the end?

*[SIGH]*
Sally

My dearest friend Sally,



((((((((HUGS))))))))))))))

I got this in an email today - i just thought they were neat thoughts - probably wont help ya - but you are an AMAZING woman, and like I told ya - it's okay to have bad days! You have been amazingly strong!


In April, Oprah interviewed Maya Angelou on her 70+ birthday. Oprah asked her what she thought of growing older. And, there on television, she said it was "exciting." Regarding body changes, she said there were many, occurring every day... like her breasts. They seem to be in a race to see which will reach her waist, first. The audience laughed so hard they cried.

She is such a simple and honest woman, with so much wisdom in her words!

Maya Angelou said this:


"I've learned that no matter what happens, or how bad it seems today, life does go on, and it will be better tomorrow."

"I've learned that you can tell a lot about a person by the way he/she handles these three things! : a rainy day, lost luggage, and tangled Christmas tree lights."

"I've learned that regardless of your relationship with your parents, you'll miss them when they're gone from your life."

"I've learned that making a "living" is not the same thing as "making a life."

"I've learned that life sometimes gives you a second chance."

"I've learned that whenever I decide something with an open heart, I usually make the right decision."

"I've learned that even when I have pains, I don't have to be one."

"I've learned that every day you should reach out and touch someone. People love a warm hug, or just a friendly pat on the back."

"I've learned that I still have a lot to learn"

"I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel."

Now with friends like these, I need a bigger house! **BIG Smile** Thanks Dorry. I'll buy the pizza and the beer. You bring the flicks. I'll take anything with Vin Diesel! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Improving, that link still isn't working but I am glad you stopped by. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Trix, I bought one of those books. Thanks for the tip.

Ms. StopTheWorldPls - If you are lurking, you will be happy to know that during this latest emergency I eschewed the frillies and got comfy in cotton panties. Yes. I really did. They are 100% cotton Hello Kitty underoos. I hope you will be pleased with the progress I am making.

It occurs to me in my funk that I haven't heard from the last of the first five? The ones I've privately called the horse-powered women... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> It's just how I've always envisioned you - You know...

Trix and Believer ride side by side,
Weaver and Pep ride next in line,
And Faithful Follower anchors the crew.
Four wild horse-powered women on Harley machines,
Followed by Faithful, lifting MBs with positive means...

Well, not so private now... and I'm more of a haiku kind of girl. Where is Weaver?

Everyone have some za. I should be OK in a day or two. Fingers crossed! I must be feeling better because I've started imagining ideas for capitalizing on our miseries again. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sally

Weaver's taking a break.

Have you read any of Marian Keyes books?

Trix, I've sort of avoided them. Should I rethink?

Sal

I read Watermelon. It is a funny book. I enjoyed it...she has an entertaining writing style...as do you.

A fellow MB recommended it..can't remember who right now.

Improving, many thanks for your link. I did manage to find the post you were referring to -

Code

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/showflat.php?Cat=0&Number=965024&page=0&fpart=1&vc=1

After the huge emotional down days I had, I rather thought I'd take a break from the boards. I still think I might but wanted to share this latest since it's positive and is inspired directly from Improving's suggestion and a reminder from Dorry that "Everybody likes to be given a choice."

So, Improving, I read the thread you posted here and it spoke to me. I am not so good with basic girly stuff and that all seemed like a nice 1-2-3 set of do's and don'ts... I read the thread through again, read some of the material referenced, made a sanity call, took a deep breath and "tips up", called Phil at the office. I didn't block my number (his system will pick up numbers, even forwarded ones...) He picked up mid-second ring! I was already pleasantly surprised.

I said Hi there, and he said hi, how are you? in a very nice tone of voice. (His 'I am very important' voice is stern and gruff!) I said, good thanks. I finished using your camera. (Phil had loaned me his brand new, terribly expensive camera for my recent holiday.) That's great! He said... You found a cable? (we made USB small talk for a while), then, was it easy to use? Some more chit-chat... then I said, well thank you so much for letting me use it, would you prefer me to pop it in the mail or would you rather pick it up when you're in town sometime?

He didn't skip a beat. I'll drop by to pick it up. Said firmly and with good tones. (?? I'm thinking c'mon! It can't really be this easy...) He continued: I don't know when, but some time in the not-to-distant future. Yeah, I thought. The great fence-sitter shows his true colors once more. No problem I said, I may not be around - I probably won't be around, but if you let me know before you stop by, I can leave it out for you somewhere.

A pause.

Phil said, glad you called. I was falling asleep here. I said yeah? He said I've been staring at the screen so long. I said I guess I know how that can be and then self-corrected -- but I don't know what that's like for you. Do you usually do that when you look at the [computer] screen a long time? (Oh my gawd and he answered this like I hadn't lived with him for 6 years!) He said it's not so much the screen. I didn't sleep very well last night. Woke up in the middle of the night. It's the first time since I came back from my trip that's happened. Up 'til then I was sleeping every night since I got back.

I KNEW IT!!! I KNEW HE hadn't been sleeping! Oh? I asked. Has that been a problem? He said, yeah I went through a really bad few months there (the whole time since we've been apart) where I just couldn't sleep at night. Then he told me the whole sorry story of his insomnia and how terrible it was and how it fed on itself. Blah blah blah. I wouldn't DREAM of telling him I just went five + days without sleeping. What would be the point? He wrapped up his story and I said, well this has been nice, be sure to let me know when you'll be by and if I'm not around I will leave the camera for you.

Phil said I don't really know when I will be in town. I don't know what my schedule is. I said very sweetly, that's OK. It won't impact my schedule. I may not be at the house when you stop by but that doesn't mean I can't leave the camera. Phil asked in a VERY deep baritone, very firm voice (which isn't his usual) Are you EVER around anymore? He couldn't tell, but I smiled. I said well, I am out a lot but I try to be home around lunch time every day for the dogs. I've been neglecting them though. I feel pretty bad about it.

So then Phil started telling me about how HE really neglected the dogs during the last fortnight. OK, not the way to win my heart there. I said, well they seem all right. You must have done a good job, they certainly are healthy and happy. And he really sounded surprised. No WAY was I going to LB about the dogs. I am slow, but I get there eventually! I said, it's been really great chatting Phil. I'll talk to you soon. And he said what about this weekend? I asked, this weekend? That'll be great. Let me know when you plan to drop by and I'll leave the camera, or perhaps I will be at the house.

Phil brought out the deep, firm voice again, I AM NOT driving all that way just to pick up the camera and LEAVE again. I thought I'd come in for a while. I thought we'd spend some time together.

Phil, I'm sorry. I already have some plans in place for the weekend.

He didn't come up for air. How about Sunday? Does Sunday work with your schedule? (No way!!! He is really bitin' my line! And he was still asking nicely!!! No attitude!) I said, I'm not going to be home Sunday morning. This time I heard HIM take in a breath! He said, Sunday afternoon then. I'll come over Sunday afternoon. Maybe we can go to the movies or do something. He didn't ask this time. He made it a statement. I said I thought that might be OK. He said he'd talk to me soon. I said bye.

He asked me for a movie!!!! During a fight before he left, Phil made a big stink about going to movies with me. He flat-out said he didn't like to go with me because it was no fun and he didn't ever want to go with me again. (Since he left me, we've gone out to the movies more than during the two years prior! And now he asked me again!!!) I actually think we do better together when the activity is more, er, active - but I LOVE the movies. Especially during the summer, nice air-conditioned movies...

So what do you think of that?!?!?
Sally

RebornMan posted to me at IV and I think his post deserves to be here with the rest... Dunno why he didn't - maybe because I said I liked our girl groove of late? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

• Quote:
  Sally...I don't want to post on your thread. I'm not sure this is constructive or not so if you don't mind (and the rest of Idiotville doesn't mind) I'd like to say/add a couple things.
  
  It is pretty obvious by your posts that you are bright, funny, refined to a higher standard, and deserve someone that appreciates those qualities in you. You must also be an excellent baker because Phil LOVES your cake.
  
  I know you are trying to detach and I know that you are trying a different approach with him to see what happens.
  
  Whatever or however it happened Sally, the 2 of you never married, I don't say that as lessoning the severity of the pain and issues involved. I say that because there is something underneath it all. I, as a man, would not "date" nor 'play house" with a woman for 7-8 years. I do not know any men that would.
  
  When a man wants a woman, when a man truly WANTS a woman forever he puts the ring on...it's like, for lack of a better term, "marking his territory". He closes the deal because he does not want another man trying to steal the "honeypot".
  
  What Phil got to do was test drive for 7-8 years and for all I know you were test driving as well for a bit, I am just trying to relay a mans point of view.
  
  All I am saying is if he wasn't asking you and making plans (meaning setting a date) for marriage within the first 2-3 years? Odds are it wasn't going to happen. Like I said, a man wants to close the deal and keep out intruders. This is where the danger of extended living together comes into play (obviously not all cases)....respect dwindles...the thoughts surface like "Why bother getting married? I get it all and I can haul [censored] when she pisses me off or no longer satisfies me without the mess of a divorce"
  
  or, the really dangerous one...
  
  "I'm not married so I can do as I please, I'm basically single really"
  
  And then here we are today. IMHO (and that won't get you a bubble gum ball) I don't think it is going to change. Yes his attitude may soften and harden according to your attitude but he has no reason to change his relationship with you.
  
  Except maybe to string you along and dangle you out for a bit and (I say this with the utmost respect to you Sally, not as a slam in any way) keep you as "backup plan #1".
  
  Everything you write and relay points to that in my eyes....backup plan/keep her from thinking I am an a-hole.
  
  Which leads me back to my assumption that you are an awesome baker, and he does not respect you at all and I don't know how he will ever get back there. I've never seen it.
  
  There are other things but I cluttered things up here enough.
  
  Respect Sally....think about it. When was the last time you think Phil respected you, when do you think it started fading? It was long before the affair I can assure you.
  
  Stay strong darling
  
  --------------------
  "Who are you" said the Caterpillar
  This was not an encouraging opening for a conversation.
  
  Alice replied, rather shyly, "I--I hardly know, sir, just at present...At least I know who I WAS when I got up this morning, but I think I must have been changed several times since then." -- end quote

I'm going to let it all rattle around in my noggin some more before responding but there's definitely valid stuff here and some stuff that doesn't fit our situation too.

Sal

Reb and all, I'm going to tie up some loose ends and then maybe run away from home for a while again. I'm having trouble dealing with all this - life. It's been a week where I couldn't seem to get my head out of the toilet. :-(

And Reb, Please feel free to come on by wherever I'm at and lend a shoulder, a hand, some wisdom or even the ol' 2x4. 'K? I appreciate the time you took to caution me. Some of it applies, some of it may apply and some of it just doesn't fit with where Phil and I were, but it's hard for anyone outside us to see, especially from far away and far ahead.

Well, here goes...
Wish it was so. I tried to do a good plan A and failed miserably a time or ten. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Oh well! I'm not all that convinced that Phil likes my cake. And umn, I LOVE the slangy intimation of 'cake'. Cracked me up to see you write your post this way!
I have said before that therapy was very bad for us. I view it as being the prime reason why I did not marry Phil. Well, my therapist actually spent a lot of time convincing me that I should not marry Phil because there was something wrong with him and our relationship. Without getting into many of the particulars, this was all based on the fact that when Phil proposed, we worked and lived in different states.

What seems so crazy to us is the fact that the whole reason I went to therapy in the first place was to be responsible and commit to some treatment for my ADD. I wanted to be the best possible wife to Phil I could be! I had avoided this since childhood but I was so strong with Phil's love that I wanted to try. Phil thought I was fine the way I was. Since I drank roughly three pots of coffee a day, was hyper-kinetic, and couldn't even manage to do laundry without a shadow (among other things), I thought I should start fixing those ADD problems ASAP.

Phil tried to find work near me. OK. We could all say he could have tried harder, but he tried VERY hard. I know this, knew this and never worried about it before therapy. There were no jobs for me where Phil was. ZIPPO. We both looked for me and saw - nothing. I was not willing to leave my job at that point. We weren't married and I was at a critical place in my career evolution.

For any that will slam me that I didn't put Phil first, well, if that's the only view you have, then yes, I didn't put Phil first. I worked hard to put myself through school and achieve a modicum of respect in my field. I wasn't willing to trash it all for the promise of a wedding ring. Phil and I discussed and discussed this and agreed together that I would take up to two years to fulfill my contract and move my career forward. We set a wedding date for one year forward.

And in that one year, one really shytty therapist played God with our lives. Every time Phil made an effort to make our wedding happen, I got counseled NOT to marry him. This got worse and worse until I really believed it would be very wrong for me to marry Phil. OK this was several years ago, and yes, I am not a moron, but bear in mind that I had NO family to help me sort out what was happening to me in therapy and in my relationship with Phil. I had to figure things out on my own and I didn't choose wisely enough. That's all hindsight for me and for Phil. And it sucks because I know this falls on my shoulders. I fewked up.

On these points I can speak with surety. Phil felt every bit as committed to our engagement and prospective marriage as I did. Neither of us was "test-driving". We believed this was forever. Which is probably part of HIS problem. When life got difficult, Phil felt trapped. I was turning into someone he didn't want to be with. He was, in response, becoming someone he didn't want to be. And no, I am NOT being too hard on myself. I just didn't see at the time how badly I was - how badly we both were manipulated.

I have read a lot on this board and it's often very difficult for me to feel like I have life all that bad. Phil hasn't acted perfectly in his attempt to get himself straight. DUH! He's having an affair! BUT, He paid me support - on his own for the last six months. It wasn't what I'm used to, but it was substantial regardless. After the initial furor over his A being exposed, Phil backed off of selling/suing me for our house (my engagement gift) and has also made it clear that he doesn't want to discuss it until winter at least.

Look, he hasn't been Mr. Wonderful all the time since he left. For weeks after D-Day I was scared his family might come after me, but I KNEW he never would. When I told him I was being harassed by phone, the calls stopped - immediately. I'm just trying to say -- this is a far cry from most of the stories I read here. It isn’t noble all things considered, but I've never felt guilty enough about something to be nice to someone against my will and it's hard for me to believe that is all that motivates Phil.

He never felt that he was single, he came home every night. We spent almost all of our free time together, but as time progressed, we sat around and read books, watched TV more and the things we used to love to do together we didn't do at all. Phil stopped having sex with me. The therapist accused him of being gay. We had some unfortunate life events and instead of helping us heal, we were helped to leave each other. Life was unhappy. Still, I NEVER had a reason to suspect he was unfaithful to me. Of course, he was though. At least emotionally. He's been remarkably consistent with his PA timeline and I don't have a reason to distrust that other than naturally distrusting everything from everyone these days...

But sure, I could be really, really wrong. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yep, here we are. At the risk of sounding very full of myself - which is a laugh because I am so darn LOW - there are quite a few reasons for Phil to change his relationship with me.

1. I love him, I love him well and HE KNOWS it. He says it. He misses it.

2. I understand him and accept him for who he is. I don't say this. He does.

3. Phil thinks of me as home. I was Phil's home. Not a place - me. I was his refuge. I was his safe place. We share this ideal and it was good for us until crap that was manufactured for us started to tear away our safety. Now neither of us has a home. And yes, Phil has said this and NO, I don't think that bit was manipulative.

4. Phil loves me. And as it turns out, He doesn't love me any less than he thought he loved OW. As it turns out, he also doesn't like me any less than he likes OW. Which could all be meaningless in the long-term, but I hope it is part of Phil's beginning realization that LOVE IS A VERB.

5. And yeah there's all the external stuff, I'm not perfect at all but I'm beautiful, I'm healthy, physically fit, modestly endowed financially and usually not too stupid. And I will say this about me too. I am willing to admit when I am wrong and willing to listen and learn, though I am a very slow learner at life but I can LOVE like anything. I am full of it - HEY! I'm full of love again! Anyone remember when I wasn't? I do <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

There are a lot more reasons to choose me -- and maybe he will and maybe he won't but I'm not a total lump ya know! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

This could be true.
This could also be true, but he's not getting much more than civility from me in terms of making him feel better. I take responsibility for my contributions to our mess, but no more. And he doesn't like that either. Oh well...
Now this one hurt Reb. The respect thing. At the risk of pissing you off, can you define respect? I actually think Phil is trying to be respectful of me. I think he had respect for me. I don't think he had it for himself. He walked around feeling like he would never measure up. He thought I didn't respect him. He's kind of passive-aggressive but the respect issue wasn't one of his manipulative bents -- he really felt like that for a long time.

I don't have a definitive answer about when he stopped showing me respect or if he ever did respect me. I don't know how to answer that. He's had at least one lie that he kept hidden from before we were a couple until the week after he left and it wasn't an affair, but it was an addiction he kept hidden. Chewing tobacco of all things. He kept it hidden VERY well.

You may all think this is namby-pamby of me, but my heart broke because he thought he HAD to keep it hidden from me - that I wouldn't love him for his (oh my gawd - DISGUSTING habit!) In all fairness, I might not have dated him had I known. I certainly wouldn't have stuck my tongue in his mouth and then when was he going to quit after that? Yeah, it's not crack or porn of alcohol, but it was/is? and addiction an he lied to me for as long as we were together. Maybe that's not respect for me. I still see it as his fear of my reaction and his lack of respect for himself.

Anyway not having any answer to the respect question had me deeply sad. When I got done with most of my moping over it I still didn't have any answers so I'm still kind of stuck on that one.

Well take from this what you will. Reb (and everyone else), I hope you'll respond, if not here, then at IV where we're more comfy? It helped me to hash it all out again. And even if I was down, with Phil out of the picture, I don't know anyone in the world that would reach out and offer protection the way you just did Reb. So it was a very sweet sort of sad. Thank you.

Sally

Thanks for the invite Sally...didn't want to barge in on the Kum-Ba-Ya circle of women here...lol...


Good, I'm glad you liked that and I meant it just the way you took it<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> Phil likes your cake or you are backup #1, he wouldn't be bossing you into a movie on Sunday if you weren't one or the other.


Sally this is why it can be dicey passing advice on minutea in a forum a thousand miles away. Bad counselor and good riddance...you can report this quack y'know?


Good for you Sally! That is such a thoughtful thing for him and healthy thing for you. I applaud you because I know the decision isn't an easy one, to face down years of coping and hardship. Good for you and I hope this is turning around for you. Can I ask something? I want you to know the question is related even though it may seem out there OK? Are you tackling this AADD with counseling? Counseling and drugs? Or behavior modification in sync with counseling and drugs? You don't have to answer but I'll point out why if you can



Sally, you do not need to justify this at all. I'll tell you why. I love the idea of putting my mate first, it seems normal and natural and is the way I operate...HOWEVER...and this is a big one...when it is the same person putting mate first all the time and mate will not...things get out of balance...the relationship ends up like a see-saw with 6 people on one side and none on the other...trust me I have a point with all of this...lol


Hey you are taking responsibility for it Sally....you apologized, it's over...let's call this one a mulligan


We are getting closer to it Sally


Your heart and mind was just as hurt as anyone elses....financially it doesn't matter Sally..I bet if we took an informal poll of BS's that got support and didn't get support.. we would probably be looking at a %96 saying they would rather have WS back and worry about finances later...can I ask a serious question Sally? If the house was a gift why are we discussing selling it? Just curious is all because if he can sell the house I have an old GF I'd like an engagement ring back from...I paid 5grr for that monstrosity!


Men can Sally, and so can women. He can feel guilty and not have the fortitude to change it at the same time...it's the fence sitter mentality too a tee (see how I worked a golf reference in there?)


Ahhh...but coming home everynight is not a sign either way. Feeling single is a state of mind Sally. Some peoples "I'm single" mentality is manifested by going out and some by filling their lives with hobbies and clubs and friends, or by spending all their time at home or around home life, but they all have one thing in common...they do what they do as long as they like doing it...and when they are sick of it they move on..ie..I'm bored, this isn't what I want, things are stale time to move along. Yes they will feel guilt but it isn't the same as you or I would feel. While we get crushed by their decisions..they will try to smooth out the exit so they can live with THEIR guilt. That is their coping mechanism...I have a book about just this type...I'll find it and post it to you. Fascinating stuff.


When you think back Sally, when did this slowly start to happen?



How long after you stopped doing things together? How long after you started treatment for AADD?


Accused him outright or maybe suggested latent homosexual tendancies?



Normal Sally...every marriage and SO goes through them..it is how we react to them that shows our true strength of character. But this is an important part of the puzzle


I don't think you are really, really wrong, I do think however if you take his PA timeline as fact I bet you can trace the EA back to sometime between you treating the AADD and the general malaise (sitting around doing nothing together)


You should be full of yourself...in a good way...Sally, you are and always will be your greatest cheerleader, just as I am my greatest cheerleader.


These are things you should be proud of Sally, you can love, you are lovable, you are willing to do the work neccessary to have a good life. Look at all the positive things YOU are. #5 may be something you want to review at another time Sally...I think you'll find some amazing insight there, good insight that may help you...if not...get on the next flight to Cleveland and I'll explain it in person...hehehe

Sally says- This could be true.
Sally says- This could also be true, but he's not getting much more than civility from me in terms of making him feel better. I take responsibility for my contributions to our mess, but no more. And he doesn't like that either. Oh well...

Sally this is important, it isn't going to make him "feel" better and that is the point...it keeps you from calling him a "flaming [censored]-hole" or some such thing. In the end he does feel better because you still like him..mission accomplished. From everything you wrote above I still thing Phil is thinking single.

Bluntly, he got bored and does what all single thinking folks do...bail.

The real reason(in my amatuer opinion and life experience) he is so willing to do certain thing is to salve his own guilt, the nicer he leaves you the better he will feel later.."See, I'm not such an a-hole after-all" and of course you were together for a long time so of there are those lingering feelings...am I doing the right thing? She is a good women and all, why am I doing this? Is this what I want? Please just don't assign him qualities he doesn't deserve...honest, decent, thoughtful, respectful...those are not very descriptive of the man you know right now. Honestly? Nothing would make me happier than for you to say in 6 months "We're Married" because hopefully that would mean all was worked out...great! I don't think that is what is going to happen though and this detachment you are trying out will serve you well in the near future




I am sorry Sally, It certainly wasn't said to hurt you in any way whatsoever. I mean it this way, You and I need to respect ourselves. You see it everyday in the paper and on the news, "Teen shoots over girl" or "Man kills the elderly for wallet" . Now we could probably agree in these two cases the people had no respect for others Sally. The important part that you may miss in this is the KEY to it all...those 2 have no respect for themselves. A person that respects themself respects others. A person that does not respect themselves will get involved in all kinds of shenanigans, adultery, drugs, criminal acts, offenses against other human beings.

So for instance, lets say Phil is being respectful and respects himself Sally. Then why isn't he home? A person that respects them self and others would admit to mistakes, take responsibility, and then do whatever it takes to make it right and move on after giving their bestest effort.

THis isn't about the "Hey, you've done great Sally...good job, nice life how proud I am of you" stuff. That isn't respect, that is well wishing. Respect can be summed up like this "I will do no harm"

I will do no harm Sally.

I will never purposely be the cause of someones sadness or heartbreak.




Your welcome Sally....I will do no harm

I am sorry for your pain.

I want to add more to sum it up but will wait for you to expound on a couple questions I had.

Listen, sweet dreams and good night

Reb, After peeking in at IV, you would know we're more Kum-Ba-YA-YA! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Which also makes me wish Phil was a Cake-eater, but let me get out of the campsite and back to biznez.

Yes, the therapist should be reported. He started protecting himself against a potential law suit the minute I STOPPED with therapy. A$$! It's not in my best interest to take it to litigation. Moving on.

Quick background - probably a third of my mother's family have dyslexia or dyslexia and ADD. As far as we can tell, only the boys have dyslexia alone and most of the girls are ADD only, but a couple have some dyslexic problems and I wound up with ADD and an eidetic memory. Go figure.

So my mom had ADD, her sister ADD and Dyslexia, I'm not new in this but I avoided all psychotherapy and drug therapy my whole life up until I started post-proposal. I never thought it would be good for me. I was willing to try something new because it REALLY was a problem.

So I went to the psychiatrist and he pretty much decided I was standard ADD, after four years of therapy he didn't change his mind. He didn't take long to start dispensing drugs and despite my queasyness over both the talking crap and the drug crap, I faced my fears and tried the crap anyway.

The first round of drugs made me nasty in the early evening and panting with lust at bed-time. NOBODY wanted to be around me. I would say that at the end of the first two months trial, I was ready to quit the whole deal but my friends, who meant well and were big on therapy thought I should stick and never having gone through the process before, I did.

The second round of drugs (legal amphetemines) made me very calm, I was able to sit still for more than 15 minutes at a time (very useful at the office though it seemed no one really noticed a difference) and started actually watching television shows from time to time instead of listening to them LOST all interest in sex. Too calm. Lost touch with my self too.

The drugs made my mind slow. My speech was slow - for me. My thought processes were slow (for me) and I just didn't feel anything the way I was used to feeling it. I never got a high or a buzz from the amphetemines, only slowness. I was able to concentrate on my professional work and house work much better and found it difficult to get the work done without the drugs but I was a happier human without the drugs.

Now I am finished with any form of independent therapy. I won't be going back to anyone. I don't trust myself to make the best decisions for me under someone's influence like that. I will only attend with another person as in MC or possibly group -- but really my only interest is marriage coaching. Not really therapy.

Our sex life slowed somewhat around the time Phil proposed, So two years in. We were both in training and I was hot - he was less hot. But sex was still good for both of us (I thought). The timing coincides with Phil's not being able to find work near me. Our first argument about sexual fulfillment was 9 months after Phil proposed. I felt neglected. And still, we had sex with enough frequency that I didn't worry about our future together, it was more whiney pout than want to do without...

Sex and our general enjoyment of activities together started to significantly drop off after I started therapy. This also coincided with my professional situation becoming intolerably stressful. So about a year and a half after Phil proposed, SF came to a noticeable drag, we stopped running together and kayaking together and life was less fun and the therapist dug in with the accusations and undermining of my values and Phil's values.

And yes, the doctor accused Phil directly and indirectly. And no, Phil is not gay. He (and gay MBers forgive me just expressing Phil's POV) is somewhat disgusted by homosexuality and all that questioning did was make Phil ANGRY. Angry and feeling like he'd just withdraw more.

We had some other issues too. But the therapy. I truly believe that if I'd stopped seeing that quack we would be married with kids and deliriously happy today. We would have adjusted to life and learned to be together instead of being forced to do things that made us grow apart.

The house was my engagement gift from Phil. We discussed it because he was getting pressured to get rid of me once he left. From OW certainly and after D-day from his parents who did not know about the A and did not know why I was so upset. They just would not believe he was having A w/married OW. They thought I was crazy and dangerous and would hurt their son. Oh well, parents. So that is why.

It was mid May, one month past D-day, that we went out (to the movies) and had an excrutiating, but ultimately good, hours-long talk in a parked in the lot. Phil did a turn-around on the house and agreed to let me take over what was left on the mortgage - basically I would keep/preserve the equity which was what he wanted for me to have in the first place. Backed off most of the way to completely by June. Phil doesn't want to discuss selling "our" house at all now, maybe ever. Well that's what he said anyway. We'll see.

The malaise, not doing almost anything fun together at all, on Phil's side started just a year before he left. For me it was after losing the pregnancy, a bit over half a year before he left. The summer of '04 was brutal for me. I was convinced by shrink that we were over and that there was nothing I could do but leave. With hindsight, this was, if I had to guess, when Phil started EA with OW but I really don't know. It could have been earlier.

I think I answered all of your questions.

I will say, yes, it's possible, probable that Phil got bored with me. But I will also say I don't believe he felt like a single man. I can ask him, not this week, but sometime. He has said that he really thought we would spend the rest of our lives together and again, I believe him. You'd have the be there to see and hear it. I could just unilaterally disbelieve everything, but that isn't in my nature.

You really are very lovely and that is said without the slightest bit of flirt. If I ever decide to leave the East coast, I might fly over your fair city. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Just kidding. I would never leave the East coast! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Have a good one and I am very interested to hear the rest of your thoughts.

Sally

You should move on but I guess what I was really getting at was reporting him to the board...forget a lawsuit, they are fruitless most of the time with therapy unless you have Dr's notes after every visit because history can be re-written quite easily y'know


That is an odd combination isn't it Sally? I wish I had an eidetic memory, mine is more of the mnemonic type...songs in my head, rhyming games...sad but true especially with numbers.


Sally, why did it seem to be a real problem now? Because of an impending marriage? Talk about putting pressure on yourself


I wonder how much of this is your perception and how much is reality? I mean if your friends were telling you to stick it out?


This is the classic ADD Sally..amphetamines slow you down and depressents speed you up. I'm neither advocating nor against the drug therapy, it depends on the severity the symptoms have on your life. Of course you felt slow, you've been running high octane for 30 years! I have a little experience with this and the one thing I do know is it takes months and months to adjust to this new way of operating. The amphetamines only slow down the process in your head and can be disconcerting for a while. I have a friend that described like this...imagine driving on the highway and you can only go one speed, 200mph, no brakes so you have to weave and dodge everything in your path while the scenery goes by so fast you can only make out flash pictures in the blur. Does that sound close? It took him 7 months to adjust to the new speed and things got better from there.

Alright well enough of that Sally...it is obviously important but you need to handle it the way you feel best. Do not make your decision based on your relationship though Sally...do it for you. From many folks, adults and children, I know it takes time to adjust because while people like me have lived at this speed my whole life and am accustomed to it...it's all new for you

Sally, obviously there are many events that collided over the last 2-3 years and I don't think you can pin point any one thing and say thats where it happened. Like the perfect storm, converging personal upheavals one after the other till the relationship flounders in high seas.

As much as YOU want Phil back, the sad truth is nothing you do may bring him back to you. He has to make that decision. You know all of that already.

There is so much more at play here in this situation, cheating, miscarriage, long, long courtship, long distance, disrespect.

You are a betrayed SO as I was Sally, I know all the feelings and hopes and asperations that go with it. I know the feeling of hope, that if only, If I do this, if they would only see, and on and on.

It is obvious you love him still and that is OK, but him feeding you bits here and bits there helps extend the hope. You are feeding him whenever he wants a helping of Sally and honestly if that isn't the definition of cake-eating I don't know what is.

Just a warning to you Sally, at some point, if this keeps up you are going to wake up pissed off. I mean furious. A person can only give so long before it turns, that is one of the major goals of PlanB..the disconnect from daily hurt, allow them to see what life is like without you, and preserve your love for that person if they turn around.

The way things are now you are draining, you may not notice it even happening but it is. Your taker is going to kick in eventually while he is sitting on the fence.

And it's not going to be pretty, I've seen it and done it.

There really is only 2 things that are acceptable at this point, commit....

Or Plan B....a deep dark plan B.

Sally I worry about you...I've been where you are about to be soon...pissed, angry, hateful, and feeling scorned and the shame is you won't care if he changes his mind when you hit that point.

I didn't and most don't...there is much truth in the saying "it's a thin line between love and hate" I plan A'ed too long (for me) and let her suck me out of Plan B 3 times...when she was probing the possibility of coming home I didn't want her anymore because I had given and given till the tide turned against her.

All the ancillary issues won't and don't matter if he isn't going to commit to you and that is why I am saying either confront and ask for commitment or PlanB...whichever you are comfortable with. Confronting won't get you the Phil you want though and we will probably be talking about this again in a year if you do. A deep dark Plan B, pitch black is all I can offer to save your relationship...or better yet to save you.

Listen I hope for you, I pray for you to get what you want Sally...

I also hope and pray you'll still want it when, if ever, it is offered.

Forget Phil for a moment in this equation because the most important thing here is YOU...above all else you need to be healthy physically and mentally however this turns out.

I wish I had some magic words of wisdom to pass along to you Sally, I guess all I really have is a warning.

There is some other stuff I want to stew on for a day or so but really I don't see how any other path could be helpful for you.

Whatever else you are a good woman Sally and I wish you nothing but the best..OK?

Reb

Reb, Sorry for the delay in response. Last week just about sucked the life out of me. It was the worst low I've had in many months. Most of it revolved around Phil and my inability to cope. I don't want to go into it just yet.

I thank you for the time and consideration. I wrote a couple notes on the notes on the notes. :-) I'll return to conversational mode after the notes...

The ADD has been a problem, more and less, since I was a toddler. I was able to compensate enough to have a successful career, get myself fed and dressed and maintain friendships... Certain ways of being were normal for me, but I really wanted to improve myself.

I'd like to say that the combination of factors; new living situation (Phil and I moved in together after dating a couple years), newly engaged and new, highly stressful work situation (on top of the usual life issues) was what motivated me to try the therapy, but it wasn't.

We discussed my wanting to try therapy together. I wanted to improve myself and Phil loved me enough to support me in trying a new way to manage the less attractive side of ADD. Neither of us had a clue what we were getting into. If I had that decision to make all over again -- I WOULDN'T choose therapy! NO WAY!

About my friends’ suggestions and my perceptions - Nope. Not a perception thing. People came right out and said! I was horrible! Also, though my friends were well-intentioned, they were clueless about what was going on with the therapy and me too. They honestly thought I wasn't giving therapy a fair chance. Some of those friends still think everyone should be in some kind of therapy. Obviously, I disagree with that.

About the drug therapy portion, well, there is good and bad. My very new and weird temper outbursts literally disappeared when I quit drug #1. With the amphetamines, my sex drive got closer to normal after a couple months and I stopped falling asleep in my lunch plate (actually happened a couple times) But at that point (almost four months of bad) I believe (now) the first really bad damage to our sexual dynamic had been done. Again, if I had it to do over, I wouldn't EVER have tried the medicine. NO WAY.

BTW, for me, ADD is a true attentional problem. Me being fast wasn't anything I was aware of until I was suddenly so horribly slow and dull. I never felt like I was speeding through life on one speed, no brakes and swerving to avoid obstacles. I just knew on the drugs that life was not the same! It wasn't as good and I missed the old, happy, lively, smart me.

Okay enough on background. Boring! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Me and Phil, well, I'd like to point out the disrespect went two ways... right now it's mostly on his shoulders but prior to that I did my share. Just trying to be fair. And about cake-eating. I am revising my consideration of that with regard to Phil and leaving room for this possibility: He may truly be confused about what is possible and what isn't possible for him, for me and for us.

The A may be over. Looking over my personal notes, my posts here and various e-mails from several people (Phil included); the A may even have been done when Phil said it was done and he really was/is in withdrawal now. I will never know for sure. Even if we reconcile, I'll never definitively know. So that is something I just need to live with if I'm going to live with Phil in my life.

With no one to help Phil through his fog, he is left to figure it out or not himself. I think there's hope for him but I think it's bound to be a long, long voyage. And even if he comes out of the fog, let's face it, he still may not want ME, and that is the fear that is eating at me now. That I am seeing positive signs and I am FEARFUL! Bad stuff. I don't function well with fear. I like to face it and eat it.

But this I can't face and eat, at least not on my own terms, so this past week was a setback. I am currently not so healthy as I should or could be emotionally or physically. I'm aware. I'm trying to try better. It's hard.

About the commit or go dark options. I'm sometimes over-fond of boiling our whole relationship down to take it or leave it as the two ultimate choices. I can take it or leave it. He can take it or leave it. He's still not leaving it. Not all of it. And as long as there is that, I am willing take it. And maybe I really shouldn't.

Confrontation is out. I don't like getting ultimatums and I don't like giving them either. Maybe the right thing to do is to go dark, but until I am sure that going dark is the right decision for me, I'm not doing it. Spent too long not trusting myself during the therapy to start down that path again.

I have to trust some things sometimes. Maybe I can't trust Phil at all, but I have to trust myself a little. This is what speaks to me today:This speaks to me because I don't fear what will happen to my feelings if Phil wants to come back. I'd like to hear more about this from your perspective because you're seeing something I'm not and if I can learn from someone else's mistake without committing my own, I'd rather! :-)

Thanks again, I am listening. I'm taking some time away too, to get my head on straight and be a little more joyful. Many here think that I devalue myself and lack self-esteem. I don't think that's so. Some others see this (perhaps more appropriately) as lack of wisdom or maturity. I try and consider all that is said to me and like I said before, there are few who seek to protect me at all, IRL or virtually and I pay attention to that! Thank you.

So share away. It's safe and I can choose for myself what I think is right for me... right? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Sally

[b]
Hey Sally,

Just a couple things before I get to the stuff above. The description my friend gave me about AADD was how he felt AFTER medication. Like you, he didn't have that perception of himself either without medicine.

Self-Esteem? Maybe. Maturity? Who knows? Lack of Wisdom? Nawww....really it is much simpler than all that..You love someone, that person broke your trust, you have decided you want that person anyway.

I still say it comes down to respect...he didn't respect you enough to protect you and now he doesn't respect you because he did what he did and you will take him back...He doesn't respect himself for doing it and can't figure out how you do. I'm only saying some people can face their mistakes and go on, others cannot, others must remove themselves from any reminders of their mistakes so they don't have to face them, and can live in their own skin.

Of course that is all without knowing personally, only by what I have read

Now onto the stuff above....

Sally, first I want you to know I do love my WWXW. I do not love what she has become but I still love my wife, always will, she is the mother of my children and if she died tomorrow I would mourn for what she used to be.

But I do despise, and I am disgusted by what she is now, what she has done, and how she has treated me and my children.

She makes me physically ill when I see her....

Now Sally, had someone said to me 18 months ago that she would sicken me at a mere sight of her I would have laughed beyond belief. How could I possibly ever hate this woman? I want her back, I want my family back, I'm following all the MB'er stuff, my kids need her....

There in lies the danger of feeding off the crumbs, the emotional crumbs, the hope, clinging to little signs, hoping the words you hear ring true....all the while ignoring our own internal signs of reaching the end of our patience...stretching the "giver" so far that when it snaps back, guess who it hits?

That is when it gets ugly...for you, and me.

If I had just gone dark and stayed dark things would have been fine, I believe in my heart we would be together now.

But I didn't, I let her suck me out against my better judgement 3 times.

Boundaries...

WWXW agrees to a couple things from PBL and claims she "wants to do that" and doesn't so I go dark again...upset but dark....

Second time she swears it is different, IC, MC, NC letter the works...3 days later "Where is the NC Letter and did you make an appt with the IC?" Her response? "Why do I have to write the letter?" "I've been busy at work I'll make the appt soon"...you can imagine the conversation and went dark again...pissed but dark

The 3rd time she was upset because married OM went back to his wife...whatever...She comes to me and says she did us wrong, is there any chance and does the offer still stand? I say yes if you are willing to do the things I asked for. Her answer is yes again, makes IC appt., writes NC letter, everything I asked for..we still didn't live together of course but see each other everyday...all passwords, cell phone stuff, work e-mail, everything...

She's over one night and wants to look something up on the computer while I am fixing dinner..."Cool, go for it" I say..She was on for a couple minutes...comes back up, we eat, she goes home all is cool....

So I go down later to go on the computer...and notice my history is cleared. I do it manually so I knew she had done it...and this was how I caught her red-handed to begin with. So I open my keylogging program and there it is...a secret e-mail account..so I go and read her mail and find out a whole lot of things I'm glad I did but wish I'd never read.

Basically it was all a ruse on both their parts, he went home to get out of child support for awhile (not court-ordered just voluntary and to delay her filing for divorce and making CS/alimony legal) and she never told him she was over here, going to IC, or anything else...basically I was PlanB in case he ended up staying with his wife. NC Letter was mailed to wrong house and came back about the same time and she acted surprised. They were also now meeting each other at lunch at a park down the street from work. So the next day I show up at the park before them, park in the back and wait. SHe shows up and I walk up behind her car and scare the sh** out of her about 2 minutes before he is showing up.

What are you doing here? Whats going on? I tell her I wanted to surprise her, I came to have lunch with her and went to her work and somebody said you'd been going out for lunch and they'd seen your car here so I figured you were enjoying the park at lunch now.

I actually stopped at a sandwich shop and picked up sandwiches on the way, her favorite.

Now she is freaking out and can barely contain herself...You wanna go someplace else and eat, she says? I say no, you don't have that much time lets just eat over here on the picnic table. I walk over and she gets out and can barely stagger over to the table when married OM pulls into the parking lot.

As she is about to sit I say "Hey, What is married OM doing here?" He sees me and turns around and pulls out like hellhounds are on his heels.

I didn't get loud and angry, in fact the more rediculously messed up situations get the calmer I get. I simply told her this was beyond reprehensible, stringing me out was one thing but getting our kids excited about us working it out was almost unforgivable and I left her crying at the picnic table.

Anyway, I go dark...extremely angry but dark.

for 3 months...till the day before our Divorce.

She calls me and asks me if our marriage wasn't worth a try, and spews back all the things I had said for months...13 years is worth something, our kids deserve more than this...blah,blah,blah..Can we have dinner tonight and talk about it?

We meet, sit down, small talk, order food, get our food and eat then I ask the question..."Are you going to do what I asked?" "Yes"

She says "But I'm afraid" I say "Of what?"

She says "That you are just going to suck me back in to kick me out or do the same thing I did to you to get back at me...I don't trust you"

THAT WAS THE STRAW! She doesn't trust me?

I say "What have I done that in any way gives you a reason to not trust me?" said nicely and calmly..

She starts "You lied to me about the checking account, you said there was $1475 in it and there was $1275......" (BTW I never said that, I said there was about $1300)

That was it, it all hit at that moment, she called me a liar! After everything I had put up with, after all I had done.....I'm the liar!

While she is still talking about my "lies" I calmly wiped my mouth, stood up, got out my wallet, threw $40 on the table and she asks "What are you doing?" I just looked at her and said "Have a nice life, see you tomorrow" and walked home.

She called me all night, followed me home in her car (it was a good hike), called me all morning, and even said something the next day at court. When I told her at court I really didn't care to hear what she said that was when she went ballistic....name-calling and all...I just told her one more time when she ever gets serious to call me.

THat is the danger of feeding off scraps, holding out hope, staying in contact....stretching your giver till it snaps back in your face. I know had I sat there in the rest. and let her spew her fog BS...let her get it out of her system...we'd be together now...I know we would be...

Now every sitch is different Sally, but in an odd way, every sitch has a similar outcome...

You as the betrayed one will feed on those scraps, will look for hope in actions and words even when they don't exist. We want what we want so bad that sometimes there is a disconnect between the ear and brain...the ear hears one thing and the brain interprets another.

You can use the Love Bank analogy if you'd like, I know (and many other BS's know) what it feels like when it is empty...dead empty...love turns to animosity, anger, and indifference.

Anyway Sally I have rambled long enough...while what you are doing isn't the same as what I did..the end result will be if it goes on too long.

Till the moment my EX called me a liar I still wanted to work things out with her. I still wanted to try and save our marriage. I still "loved her"

That very second it died and turned.

Even if she came to me today and said "I am so sorry, I can't believe how foolish I've been, please lets try and work things out"

I wouldn't, I couldn't, and the very thought of it makes my skin crawl.

See you in IV...above all else just remember..you are a good woman and deserve the best OK? Don't settle for half of a whole