Fox,

As the self-appointed Plan B Czar on here, I have to first say "I LOVE PLAN B!" The sheer power of it is amazing. Shannon's reaction to Plan B was a testimony to Plan B.

Now, to you all...

First, you were right to talk to her. Why? Because you told her that she had to leave unless she was there to talk about the marriage. And you stuck to those boundaries. Once she said that she was there to talk about the marriage (as outlined in your PBL), then you talked. This was fine. It is what must happen if she is to ever come back.

Now, your reaction to her discussion is what is important. After hearing all she had to say, she basically said this. That you are hurting her by taking yourself out of her life (awesome!!). That she wants the marriage (good!!). and then the big "BUT" comes in, as is typical with a WS. She says she is going to decide by the 13th. Why not today? Why not now? What is going to happen for her in the next 13 days that will move her one way or the other?

Fox...the answer is...nothing.

She is trying to negotiate with you. She is trying to shoot down your boundaries right when you set them up. She wants cake, and you are taking yours away. It hurts, and she is promising ANYHTINg to get you to give that cake back. That is anything but what you have put in your PBL.

So, does that mean that this wasnt a good interaction? Nope. It proves two things. One is that she still has feelings for you. And two, Plan B is especially tailored for her.

But this can only be good for you and your marriage if you do one thing...go back to NC. Make thet PBL the Consitution of your marriage. She said she wanted until the 13th to commit? Fine...she is an adult and can do anything she wants. But the LAW of this marriage is in that PBL, and until she adheres to it, there is no negotiation...and no contact. If she decides she wants to talk about surrendering, then you will listen. As a matter of fact, I think you told her the PROPER avenue of contacting on this was via email. Right? So, everytime she tries to do this, you point her back to the PBL. And you go dark. If she corners you, you tell her that you will not budge one bit on the PBL. And you walk away. No hugs. No talking about anything. Just walk away.

Aaron, the enemy of your marriage right now is your wife. If she wants back into that marriage, into your life, she can no longer state the terms. With sending the PBL, you have given the terms of her surrender. And surrender she MUST!

Son, your wife needs you to be strong now. You may think with your heart, and believe talking to her will help...or letting her not meet all of your demands in the PBL will help...but you would be wrong. She needs a strong man in her life who says what he means, and stands by what is right...even if it hurts. Are YOU that man?

She hasnt a clue what she is doing. She even said that...that she is scared and doesnt know what to do. YOU KNOW WHAT TO DO!!

I agree with Pep and others above that you need to go and talk to a counselor. Why? Because Plan B is most importantly about giving you the time to get yourself straight. Why? Because you cannot be the man of your marriage if you dont get some things settled inside you. The man for Shannon, or someone else if this marriage goes to divorce.

Fox, any time she approaches your boundaries, just email back with "Shannon, I have already told you what is happening and what will happen in the email I sent you. I have not changed my mind. When you are ready to meet the conditions of that email, then I will be willing to see you and talk. Until then, I move forward with my life...and you and I will not be having contact....Aaron"

Always point back to the PBL and go dark. Do this by email...so you cant get sucked into a conversation with her. Like I said above, if she shows up at the door...dont answer. You told her that the proper way is to email you. Until that email happens, no negotiations. No contact.

These are loving boundaries Fox. She needs you to set them because she is incapable of setting them herself. She needs you to do the right thing here.

A disclaimer: Fox, this may not save your marriage. There are no guarantees. But I can tell you that if you dont do this, your marriage will not make it. it is like the guy who has cancer and the doctor says you have a 50% survival rate with the surgery, and a 100% chance of dying if you dont get the surgery. Same goes with your marriage. The odds are in your favor, but not guaranteed.

The key to Plan B is sticking to your boundaries. And taking care of yourself. Get you healthy and squared away. Use this time to draw closer to Christ. If your wife comes back, she will need you together, with the problems of the past fixed. If she doesnt, you will want those fixed for yourself and your future wife.

Back to NC Fox. That was the first round of Plan B. I think it went well. But it only went well, if you respond to it correctly. And that is always pointing her to the PBL until she surrenders.

In His arms.

Orchid - "attachment disorder" is used to describe children who have difficulty attaching or bonding due to trauma.

FoxOR doesn't have this problem. But a professional might well direct Fox to study up on the treatment for someone who derives his sense of self-worth to the behavior of others towards him, leading him to stay in relationships that use and abuse him. The #1 fate of those with this disorder is co-dependency - co-addiction, etc.

Well said Kayla.... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Edited to add: I stand corrected on implying it might be an attachment disorder in agreeing with PB&J. I never paid attention during my psych rotation...no wonder it was my lowest grade in all of Med school. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Kayla,

I don't recall viewing Fox's sitch as an 'attachment disorder' but if I conveyed such, I stand corrected. Thank you.

Fox is young. This WS/BS stuff is even hard for us older ones so his difficulties are understandable. I think most of us are viewing it from a parental POV and want to see him stop hurting. While this is noble, it isn't always practicle (sp???). Fox needs to be given the tools and guidance to learn how HE can work it out for him. Same steps as we went through. Like others we can give him the support but in the long run he is the one who at this tender age must make a difficult decision.

The good thing is his youth will afford him the opportunity to start over again and have the options to create a better life with more time than most of us have. So youth has it benefits and pitfalls.

JMHO,
L.

Foxor-

Although I can't say that I can be glad that I'm being used as an example of what NOT to do.........it's sadly true, my Plan B was sabotaged, and not by my WS either....by yours truly. My h flew over to my house immediately when I gave him the Plan B letter, and caused a huge scene...etc., and I liked it.....like lemon was saying, any attention, was better than no attention. I squirmed and caved and badgered him into a false recovery, and now we've filed for a dissolution I don't want.......and I really see no way of fixing what I've done, as there is no longer an *A* no longer an *OW* to sort out................and apparently no desire to work on the marriage (From my husband). I think he feels it's just too far gone.....and yet he STILL keeps me on the line, saying that it's not over....I'll always be in his heart....etc. He even keeps throwing in that we may re-marry......ARRRRGH.

The advice here is much easier to type than it is to follow....but Mortar is right with his cancer analogy.....fix it now, take the 50% chance it could work over the 100% chance it won't on the present course.

I couldn't do it, I hope that if you want it, that you can Fox.........

-Caren

A quick update - only posting these for you all, I have not responded to them, nor will I; unless I am supposed to reply and simply say "Please do not contact me unless it is about adhereing to the boundaries I set up in my no contact letter to you" or in this case (which im assuming it is...)is it better to just not say anything at ALL until she comes to me mentioning the PBL?

I'm not feeding my "fix" by asking this question, I'm just curious.

Here are the two e-mails she me this morning. I was surprised to see she didn't get pissed like she usually gets.

Yea, I did change it because at this time I feel uncomfortable at the fact that you are always checking up on me....I don't do it to you, nor do I feel the urge to. I'm not hiding anything from you, but it really bothers me. I'm not going to lie to you, but I'd rather you'd find out what's going on with me by actually talking to me rather than snooping through my e-mail, ya know? Once we get ourselves on better ground, I have no problem giving you my new password.

So, don't be so harsh...I am wanting to work on our marriage, but I have my boundaries too. And it makes me uncomfortable having you read my e-mails all the time, no matter what I am talking about. I could be talking about the weather for all I care, but the point is that you shouldn't be checking up on me all the time. Things aren't going to get any better that way. I am contacting you because I want to work on things, but you are also going to have to try to trust me. Remember, both of us are trying to protect ourselves right now. I'm sorry if you can't accept this, but I am trying. I'm not doing this to hide things from you, but I really feel like you are invading what privacy I actually have left. So, I am here to work on this marriage too, so you can either accept my terms or you can't. But the important thing is that I am here.


I hope to talk to you soon,
Shannon

and here is the second one:

Aaron~
I am sorry to hear than you are going back to Pullman. Please let me know when you get there if you can. I still need to be able to communicate with you. I really hope that everything works out for you...I prayed for you last night.

Hope all is well and I will talk to you soon,
Shan

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They both scream WS ramble; as well as trying to get me to break my Plan B - you were right in mentioning a "quick and false recovery" darkness it shall remain!

Really quickly - should I even be reading these e-mails if I see nothing in them has to do with the PBL letter? Am I preventing myself from Plan Bing correctly by posting these things to you guys? I just want to be sure I'm doing this right.

-Aaron

No answers for you Fox, as I sucked at Plan B.

I imagine it's hard not to read them, isn't it???

So you didn't reply to either of them? That's good, it's making her nuts again already.

What were your conditions of your Plan B letter???

-Caren

This was the Plan B letter I sent her.

Dear Shannon,

I am sorry for what I've done in helping make it possible for you to see other men. I too, am sorry for neglecting our relationship as I did; and that I wasn't there when you needed me to be there for you the most.

I am willing and properly prepared to avoid our past mistakes and create a new marriage for us that will make us both happy, but I can't do that until you can stop seeing other men and commit fully to our marriage.

Until that time I will avoid seeing or talking with you, I will not be able to help you financially either; I will switch the bills at the apartment into my name. If you need your TV from the Irizarry's you can come get it when you need to; I will find somewhere to go when you come.

I ask that you respect my decision to seperate from you this way. You have to know how much I am suffering knowing that you are seeing other men; as well as how much I have endured because of these affairs; be them mental, physical, or emotional ones. I can't be around you knowing you are seeing other people. I still love you, but that love is quickly dwindling; I can't be lied to anymore.

As soon as you are willing to permanently end your affair(s), and willing to do the things neccessary to make sure there is no contact, as well as participating in things we need to work on as a team to ensure the successful rebuilding of our marriage and the security of any future children we might have, like marriage counseling; I will be willing to discuss our future together. There will still be a spot in our bed for you should you make this decision.

I want us to rebuild our marriage someday; I know how important this marriage was to both of us when we went into it and we still have a wonderful opportunity to live a divorce-free, happy life together. I would love for it to be filled with great joy while we satisfy each others needs. It would be great to see us never do anything to hurt each other again. I want to be your best friend and a loving husband, always there for you - one who will never hurt you again; I know you would like this too. I want you to be happy.

I loved you when I married you and I love you now. I just cannot be with you or help you while you are seeing other people. If you cannot end contact with these other men and decide with a whole heart and no doubt that being together is not what you want in life; then I will move on with my life; making this my final goodbye as both your husband and your friend. If this is the case; I want to thank you for the wonderful friendship you've given me over these past six years. I will never forget the love and the memories we shared during the last two.

Until then, I need to separate and keep safe the love that I hold in my heart for you.

All my love -
Aaron

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No I haven't replied to any of her messages. She is extremely in the dark as to where I am; she has no method of contacting me other than e-mail right now.

As I sit and reread the letter; I wonder if I even set up these boundaries clear enough.

We can't rebuild our marriage if we're separated and not living together IMVHO - which I didn't mention in the letter. She seems to think (By the sounds of her emails) that she is working on rebuilding our marriage from a distance; which is accomplishing nothing. What to do?

She responded to this, telling me she is "Read to work on us" - I don't think I outlined the Plan B clearly enough for her....

Great. Botched something up already.

Now, instead of me "holding to my boundaries" she is going to interpret it as me "ignoring her" because in her mind she is adhering to the boundaries and is "willing to work on the marriage."

Fox

I was wondering ...

What model do you have that you can use as an example of a healthy man-woman mature love relationship?

Have you witnessd such a model of love/relationship/marriage, and have you seen how problems are solved, how respect is shared, and how healthy attachment behaves?

I'm trying to understand your frame of reference.

Yes and no.

I haven't grown up near one of these relationships; but I have seen them.

All I know is that I'm about to have a nervous breakdown.

Is this the model you grew up with?

Do you know how to self soothe?

no...all i remember from my mom (my dad wasnt in the picture) was her breaking down and crying and then running off and disappearing for days at a time when things got bad.

Are you interested in trying something different than "I'm having a nervous breakdown." ?

yes...whether or not I will be capable of carrying this other thing out or not is a whole nother issue.

Not really ... You are a man of faith, right?

Do you know when you choose to fall apart you could instead choose to fall together?

You may not know that, because you never saw your Mother do this when you were growing up. You only saw her fall apart, and you do not know that there are other ways to deal with the pain of separateness..

I try my hardest to put my faith in Jesus, but for some reason - even though I don't believe this world can exist without Him, I feel alone when these things happen - and I wallow in self-pity and isolation..

I miss my wife so dearly, and I feel so alone through all of this; my whole life I have felt alone; then she came into the picture and I felt like my world had turned into something completely new - I wasn't alone anymore...now she's gone and I feel like I've felt my whole life again - alone and in despair.

I realize this isn't healthy...I've been in counseling for years because of this - but I can't change the way I feel; I've been trying for as long as I can remember.

Before I had anyone in m life, it was different because I didn't know what it was like - but now that I've spent two years with my wife; that joy and happiness that is gone is ripping me up inside; and now I feel alone again - worse than ever before.

Yes I know I have emotional issues, I'm not going to deny it - a lot of what my parents did really damaged me inside; I don't know if it is something that is repairable either - more like something I need to find a means of coping with or dealing with correctly; adapting, so to speak...