I didn't contradict myself at all. She hasn't lied to me. She has, however lied to her H, Patriot, and OM #2 and those are just the ones I know of.

As I said, I have no intention of taking her word for it. We are meeting in a public place in 25 minutes.

Pep,

I don't think that is fair to say that I'm not on the path to Recovery with this meeting.

I need to protect MYSELF from future pain by being informed of what I am up against. I'm sick of worrying about it. I'm sick of the way all parties involved in this deal with it by NOT dealing with it.

As far as a POJA...yes, we did discuss it. I know he is scared, but he cannot possibly be more scared than I am right at this very moment. Facing things is pretty damn scary. Facing THIS is pretty scary.

Are you saying that you and patriot BOTH expressed enthusiasm that this is a good decision?

Remember, nothing like this should be done without FULL enthusiastic agreement between spouses.

If there is not enthusiasm in patriot's heart for this OW-wife meeting ... then it is a love-buster.

You need to protect your marriage from any possible lovebusting independant behaviors.

Frozen,

I believe your H held out on you. He had every intention of NOT telling you about this incident. I believe he finally told you because of your persistance in knowing and finally realized that you would ask the OW. He weighed his options before coming out with the truth. He knew the second you ask him the first time.

WHs rationalize their continued lying by saying they do not want to hurt us any more AND they don't want to accept that they actually did something so sinister.

I wish I had been as persistant 3 years ago. Now, I'm haunted on a daily basis with so many unanswered questions and denials. My H has lied for so long about his A's that I actually think he believes those lies are the truth. (There is a psychological term for that. Psychologists used that term to describe O.J. Simpson.)

Pat,

Why are you SO scared about their meeting? You think OW will contradict your stories and tattle? Are you afraid Frozen will learn something you don't want her to know?

Just wonderin'...

Tatertot

Possibly I can offer an alternate point of view on this.

I realize my part in all of this and there is nothing I can do to change it. I can, however, be better today and in the future. So much learned. So much yet to go.

Froz is meeting with ow today and yes, she and i did discuss it. It was POJA'ed. Was I enthusiastic about it? How can you be? This sucks. Worse for froz, I know.

We both want to know what we are dealing with on this OC thing. Is it or is it not mine. It seems to tend towards not. Only a few options to satisfy the curiosity. Stalk ow and wait, which sucks and is stressful for her and not fun for me. Meet ow and get the info from her. Risky, but on a diplomatic level, arrangements can be made to ensure froz and I can be satisfied that what we are told is in fact true... like info of birthday. Seeing the child. That kind of thing. That is facing the issue head on. Getting the info so froz can make her choices and be responsible for them. Not fun at all, but sitting wondering, possibly forever, doesn't sound fun either.

I will not be leaving froz for OW. I am not some foggy, in withdrawl WS. I am not going tell her she can not get information she wants. This information I can not give her, so she will have to go to ow for it.

What other benefits are there? Not being blindsided later on. The city is large but sometimes the world is a small place. If froz sees OW, then at some time later if we run into them, like at the mall or something(hoping we don't) then at least it will not be a blindside. Froz will not be oblivious to the truth. She will know it, be fully informed, and can make her decisions as she sees fit.

Also, and the most powerful to me. Let me describe strength to you. Froz has a gift for ow. ow is married and could obviously use the principles from this site. She has a teenage child and one on the way. They need a proper role model. That family needs saving, as they have both had A's. That said, froz is not returning evil for evil. She is returning good. She has printed a large amount of information from this site and placed it in a binder, along with questionaires and other items. No one can make them read it and use it. Hiding it from them does no one any good. Nothing is gained by froz to be evil to ow and her family. And maybe nothing is gained from providing the information from here.

But I can not think of anything stronger for a BS to do than to share MB principles with the enemy when it would be SO much easier to just hate her forever and be done with it. What is gained from hate? If she should hate and avoid the OW, why should she not hate and avoid me? I am just as guilty.

God says to forgive those who sinned against you, or you shall not be forgiven. By providing MB principles and ideologies to them, possibly... future A's can be avoided.

I think what froz is doing is above and beyond the call of duty. Attempt to educate the enemy so they might not be the enemy to someone else again.

Maybe I am completely naive and this is delusional. I still don't want to hide from the facts. Neither does she. And what could be more kind and christian than returning good for evil?

Hi, Frozen.

I still remember bits and pieces of my 'liasons' 30 years after the fact. Those are bits and pieces that I had forgotten 30 years ago.

I am making no excuses, nor am I making any claims, but in all seriousness, a man may remember a particularly onerous event, or a particularly great sexual act, but those memories are rare, and are less likely to have a strong emotional attachment than a woman might experience.

Plainly put, as a generalization, men don't remember emotional details in the same way, or to the same extent that women do.

All the best,
Gimble

This issue is whether or not this meeting is good for YOUR marriage.

Opinions are going to vary, naturally.

But if you want to apply Harley concepts, and POJA in particular,... unless YOU BOTH agree enthusiastically about something as important as this ... then nothing should be done until both spouses can agree with enthusiasm.

"discussing" is not enough

capitulating to make peace is equally ill-advised

agreeing out of guilt is not advised

agree to this ~only~ if you honestly think this is GOOD for YOUR marriage and you are enthusiastic in your agreement ... so far, you look dragged into it!

I think you give me credit for being way more calculating than I am. Also, I am quite a forgetful person, and that has history to back it up.


I do actually accept that I did something so horrible. That sucks. People like Dorry know where I am at as far as being a FWS. She has had much the same 'epiphany' I have. I went through stages of horrid guilt and it was debilitating. Not proud to admit it, because men are supposed to be so strong...


I have my problems. I desire to work on them and have made progress on them. Nothing is a fix overnight. This is a process, as many seem to say. Wanting to work on my issues and recognizing them is progress.


I am sure there is a hefty amount of sarcasm in this remark. You have already convicted me. And that is your luxury. Am I a big fan of froz meeting OW? No. I think it will be painful and horrible. It will take a strong will to deal with it. But Froz has chosen it and I understand the reasons, so I support her fully. Do I worry that the OW will tattle? Well, has often been the case, my forgetting of certain 'meaningless' details only to have froz hear them somewhere else and come back to me with it is a concern, sure. Why the OW would get any more credit for telling the truth than me doesn't seem to pass the common sense test, though. That said, I believe that I have given Froz the info that I can recall to make sure she does not get blindsided. I have faith that I have owned up to what I recall and what I remember.

<shrug> There is no way I could convince anyone of anything about me, other than what they want to believe from me. I don't know... but I have done what I believe I can today.

Froz,

If this OW can lie to other's,she can very well lie to you.It's foolish to think she hasn't done so and there is absolutely no way to tell that she hasn't lied or will not lie.

If you have no intention of taking her word on "it" then why meet? I am just concerned for your well being.This OW doesn't deserve the time of day from you.

Take care though,if you must go.

O

Froz..... read this over.....

[color:"red"] [/color]

Tell me .... in your mind ... how does this fit in with recovery-marriagebuilders-concepts ?

Time to build something together. Like trust.

YES ... trust him. Why not?

I was not dragged into it. It is true that I would rather know yea or nay on the OC.

the truth is the best thing in my marriage. Just my opinion..

I just wanted to post something I put on another thread...that works with what Pep said.

Basically, both Sprint and I have decided not to MAKE eachother earn trust back..because we end up smothering eachother...instead we CHOOSE to trust.

Hi, Frozen.

One other thing.

Why the desperation to meet the other woman?

Do you think that she is somehow better than you?

Do you think that you will find answers to questions about yourself by looking at her?

She did something wrong. Other than that, and the attitudes and personality changes that come with doing something wrong, she won't be any different than you or me. Don't waste your time looking her over. It won't help.

I do understand how you feel though. I know that if I ever see a certain person, that I will be hard pressed not to break his jaw.

Just try and think it through rather than reacting, Frozen. Just like the early stuff we talked about.

God bless,
Gimble

This does not require a face-to-face ... but a court-ordered DNA testing after the birth.

This is borrowing trouble here. In my opinion Patriot.

My thoughts exactly.

It's a long and painful wait for both Froz and Patriot, but there is no other way to be sure of the paternity of the child.

Is there any other reason for this meeting other than to establish the probability of the child being Patriot's?

OG,

Of course there was no way to tell if she was lying or not, which is why I was not willing to merely accept her word.

I went to the meeting. She brought ultrasound photos with dates and due dates on them. She also agreed to give me a phone call when she gets home from the hospital.

You asked, "then why meet?" There are many reasons, but first and foremost my mind is at ease, for the most part, on the issue of the pregnancy.

She may not deserve anything from me, as you said, but does anyone? I can't think of anyone that really deserves anything from me (except my children). I can make the choice to give or not to give to someone, regardless of whether they deserve it or not.

Froz

I was simply pointing out the fact that everyone was initially telling me to take Patriot's word.

Yet, when it came to the OW, they were saying "Don't believe her for a second. She's a liar."

I was merely pointing out the irony.


Well, I have a slew of reasons why NOT to...

If you want to fault me for questioning him, then so be it. I have made the decision to accept what he said as truth. My questioning him at all stemmed from my distrust of my own judgement and my desire to not make the mistake of being blind.

Froz, I am glad seeing the ultrasound photos put your mind at ease. Not please try to put this on the back burner on work on your personal recovery.

"fault" ... where do you get this idea?

Methinks I took the thread title too literally. I took it to mean you wanted advice for recovery. And my advice, in this instance, was "Yes, trust him. Why not?"

I'm glad this has all worked out the way you wanted it to.