OK
When my Mom died.

Squid: "I know how you feel baby"
Bob: "no you don't, you never lost a parent. Even I don't know how I feel about this !"
Squid: " F'k YOU then, I was just being nice !" Storms off. Sulks for DAYS. I am existentially alone. I have to kiss [censored] to get Squid to be civil to me.

Now Squids Mom is dying. I ask HER every day:

" How do you feel about this ,baby?"

Some days she doesn't want to say just a hug, other days she tries to articulate. Some days she shouts " I don;t want to talk about it !".

But I keep asking and don't sulk.

I asked if THIS kind of behaviour was all women or just Squid.

I think a lot of this stems from Squids utter need for me to be a strong leader in her life. When i stopped being this, she had her affair.

...or is it a female trait to not like to truly HEAR how their men feel when it is uncomfortable?

If so DON'T BLOODY WELL ASK THEN !

harumph !

[color:"blue"] Not only did I say "Get it together" ... I said ---> " I have decided to work part time. You need to pick up that slack."

This was when we adopted the kids. My income had always made our lifestyle above average. I realized our kids needed more hands-on parenting ... and I made a unilateral decision to let go of half of my previous income.

I basically said ... "Fix this. I'm not going to help."

nice, huh? [/color]

LOL Bob ---> GO WATCH FRIGGIN ANIMAL PLANET AND COOL DOWN BOY!!!

I can't pep ! Canned laughter liek on "PFA" makes me growl ! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

I'm OK. like I said Squid is very different now.

But now I come to write that I know I wouldn't rely on her in a crisis now. is that good or sad ?

not sure.

Do you think that a person having a life crisis always recognises that this is what is happening? If nothing 'obvious' has happened to provoke it?

If they don't recognise their feelings as a shift within themselves, how do they interpret what they're experiencing?

How can the other spouse identify what's happening, if there's no recognition (or active denial) of behavioral changes by the spouse in the crisis? If the other spouse detects turmoil in the partner, how can the subject be broached effectively? How can the supporting spouse judge whether the change is in the affected partner or in themselves?

TogetherAlone

Bob,

It just goes to show you how different people are.

Good grief.Not only do I never say," I KNOW how you feel"(you can NEVER know how another feels,you are not them!) but I would never swear at my H.Now some people may be ok with that but I just never would be that disrepectful.

I also have no room in my life for fighting and yelling at one another.It's just not the way in which I solve probelms and I don't think it's healthy.I may be in the minority,I don't know.I hear people screaming at each other all the time,not just married couples.I don't understand that behavior.

Any issue,I think can be discussed with decorum and respect.Even when it came to my WH's porn issue that he initially denied,I felt that we could discuss it rationally and decide how best to approach resolving our feelings about it even though I was completely disgusted by it and *internally felt like just slamming the door on the subject.

I also can't stand when women use that response "Nothing" when you ask what is wrong? That is also useless unless there truly IS nothing wrong.I believe you should always discuss matters up front,openly and honestly and right away if possible.

I don't mind hearing things that are uncomfortable for me to hear,they need to be said.Even if it may be hurtful,it does no one any good to avoid and repress what you are truly feeling.I have always said it takes a strong and brave person to hear the truth sometimes and truth may not be only what you beleive but what the other believes.

So in answer to your question,NO.I do not think all women are like this.But women AND men need to know how to communicate respectfully, with care and delicacy.You cannot just blurt some things out to your SO and expect that they won't be hurt but you do have to be undertanding and caring in the process and this is where I see *some* men fail.

Well, thank you for addressing this topic with me.I can understand what you are saying.

O

[color:"blue"] I am having trouble with this one Low.

Searching back, looking at our pre-A soup ... I still think my H was a bit of a wild-loose-canonball ... he will probably agree. He had a lot of alcoholic behaviors, even when he was sober. ~and~ maybe worse ... he was an ~actor~ and by definition self-involved and fanciful....

Help me out with this one LOW [/color]

LO,

I felt the need to address the issue pre and post A because it is relevant.It may not be what YOU intended and that's ok but I was just expressing my opinion on what you stated.Many times it is only after the A that one actually takes the much needed time and counseling to explore the why's of this change in their life because they hapened to drag along their family in the process and if they don't know what is going on,how can we help them? I am glad you and you and your W addressed your marital issues together post A but I will always perosnally believe that there are many other actions one can take to instead of an A to get the proverbail "wake up call" or solve marital problems.I am just not one to believe the old saying that "The A made our mariage better" or those types of sentiments.There are,IMO,less painful and more healthy and non destructive ways.

And I think we agree on most of what you said.I also believe it is important to explore HOW the WS got to the point where they gave themselves permission to behave this way,no argument there.I've said this many times before too.I also agree the WS has to convince themselves that all was horrible and they are unloved,etc,etc pre A.This is exactly what my WH told himself.However he got there still remains a mystery because he was SOOO Loved by me and his family.I told him I loved him several times a day, every day and MEANT IT EVERY TIME.I just don't know where he got lost on that issue.I may never know now.

Regarding a MLC,well,let me clarify: I do feel it's a decision on how to handle it.When you look at the definition,there are appropriate ways to deal with the feelings of boredom,anxiety,self doubt,etc instead of the ways that hurt other's.I did not mean to suggest that you decide to BE in a MLC,that was my error and I apologize.I meant,decide that things aren't going as planned perhaps,or that you feel doubt about the way your life is headed,so you decide to spend time with another man/woman and the excitement that brings of a new "relationship" and invest your energy there instead of your marriage,your own life,what you want out of life,etc.That is where I feel spouses should be included, not OP.

And in closing yes,we agree again on supporting one another in the challenges and other activities that your SO may enjoy and I'm sorry your W shut down.That didn't help and I can see why that might be a sore spot.As a minor example for me,I watched my WH play an online game that at first,I felt horrified by.It's about soldiers carrying out comabt missions,etc and death and guns,etc.But,in an act to be a part of this thing he really enjoyed,I tried it.Well,not only did I become very good at it,we played together and we had another area of mutual pleasure to discuss.

I could have continually resisted but I chose to try and immerse myself in this new activity for him.I did try and I also happened to enjoy it over time.If the roles were reversed,I would not mind at all if he didn't enjoy horse back riding.But I would have appreciated it if he tried at all.Even when he didn't, I still loved him.I loved him just as he was and that still wasn't enough.

O

So Pep you only listened to stuff that YOU valued from your H ?

Men imagine a lot. We imagine various scenarios how stuff could be, and could not be.

And sharing a righteous man's dreams, even the ones that will never come true should be a privilege not a chore IMO.

Thanks Bob.

Sorry pep.
I listened to my Dad's. He was never going to achive any of them. He knew it, I knew it but at least he had the power to dream it.

maybe I'd like my impossible dreams heard too....one day.

Well, I killed THIS useful thread !

I've been thinking about supporting spouses.

In other peoples marriages is there a 'supporter' and a 'supported' ?

I have ALWAYS been supportive of Squid , buthave been on my own largely when I've had problems.

Does Squid have more crises than me or do I have 'white knight syndrome' where I rush to her aid without being asked?

Is that the JOB of a husband ? Or of both spouses ?

I think this is a great thread Low. I agree that a couple's dysfunctional coping method to a major life transition event seems to often lead to an emotional separation, then emotional needs not being met, secret thoughts and feelings etc, which seem to often precipitate an A!

Pre-A, H had several depressions, and I thought that I was usually the supportive S. I felt (rightly or wrongly) like I was the emotionally 'strong' one and so could cope with my own problems, while he needed my support to cope with his. I don't even think I supported him particularly well, given that I had no training or experience with depression, and I felt a little out of my depth. I often had the feeling he wanted more or better support from me, while the whole experience was difficult for me. I think now I probably should have looked after myself better at this difficult time.

At other times I didn't ask him to support me, and I now think I should have - in fact, that that was one of the causes of my pulling away emotionally from him, and us isolating ourselves.

Maybe I was afraid to ask for support because I would have to be vulnerable, and risk rejection? or maybe a part of me thought he 'should' know to support me without me asking? Whatever the reason, it is something that I have now changed and I will never again try to cope with things like that on my own. I ask for the specific support that I need.

I like this one.

I learned post-A to put aside my fear (fear of change, fear of abandonment) and to listen to my husband. If I really can't find a way to engage in the conversation, I just nod and make alot of listening noises. The old me got angry, threatened and scared (made the issue all about me), or disrespectful (because his imagination was just plain stupid imo).

Post A, I have seen this as my meeting his need for conversation without lovebusting him.

But this discussion has made me think there's more to it. I now see that this might be a way of letting me in?

oh but i should mention my husband's crisis is chronic! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

BR help me out here ... this is where I got stuck going down Low's list (wherethehellislowanyway)

The "moving to Iceland" discussions and ideas sometimes evolved into "purchasing tickets to Iceland" realities ... sometimes exhausting family resources.... and ~sigh~ sometimes without MY input ... our monies were spent !

So giving these conversations their due, as a means to an end (respectful listening) ... this is actually a trigger for me. I hear [color:"red"] *Danger Will Robinson* Danger [/color] in my head.

I don't WANT TO talk about "Iceland" because I ~already~ paid for tickets and did not get to go !!!!

Help me BR.

help me Low.

Bob ... I meant "Thank you" in ernest ... but this is a tripping point for me ... and I need to dwell here until I really REALLY "get it".

And sometimes those flights of fancy, unshared with the supportive spouse, can include "I think I'll have unprotected sex with strangers" or "Gee, I wonder what all this hype is over crystal meth" or "I think I'll wager our life savings on the Superbowl."

Flights of fancy are not always benign. The desire to engage in risky behavior CAN lead to devastating consequnces.

Ok, I'm back...had to manage few small crises (fortunately not like the one's were discussing).

This is admittedly a tricky one. There are some potential pitfalls to joining in on the "flight of fancy" like the one you've brought up...your spouse may infer that you are "in joint agreement". This is where it's important to establish boundaries - e.g. "Honey, that sounds interesting, but it is not something that appeals to me...what about this idea?"

The important part about engaging in these discussions is that your spouse FEELS like you believe what they think and desire is important.

There is a world of difference between saying, "That's a stupid idea" and "That doesn't appeal to me." and seeking alternatives.

So, the tricky part is when your spouse decides he'd actually like to pursue this dream. This is where POJA comes into play. It's clear that buying tix to Iceland without your involvement is a violation of POJA and is disrespectful.
However, I think spouses SHOULD make efforts to support the pursuit of each others dreams and ambitions.

Where the supportive spouse can go wrong is leading the spouse in crisis to believe they are in full agreement with whatever whimsical plan they may hatch. It's ok to disagree, as long as you give the dream credence.

As Bob said earlier...sometimes we KNOW it's an impossible plan. I wanted to build my own race car one time...I knew it was crazy, but I had fun talking about how I would build my car, what class I would run, etc, etc. My wife can talk with me about the car and what I'd like do with it, without necessarily agreeing to actually go get it. We just want to be HEARD. All too often, spouses respond in fear and utilize tactics designed to take the wind out of the other's sails. The spouse in crisis may already feel trapped by their current existence...squashing talks about their dreams only reinforces this idea. They feel they have no options and their spouse is part of that problem instead of being someone who will partner with them in adventure.

If your spouse was in crisis...which would you rather be?

I'll give you another common scenario:

Spouse in Crisis: "I really like those new Corvettes!"

Supportive spouse say: "They are sharp. What color would you get? I like the yellow ones"

Un-supportive spouse says: "Honey, you know that's just not practical for us. We NEED a minivan."

The latter may be true, and he may come to realize this later, but right now he's having fun imagining a weekend in wine country with a babe in his Corvette.

Don't YOU want to be that babe he's imagining he's with?

Low

Yes ... I want to be that Babe ....

this is useful to me Low ... off to ruminate now ... chew chew chew

I just realized we're kind of coming at this from the male MLC viewpoint, but it can apply in a lot of other cases.

Empty nest, job change and other life transitions. The death of a family member or someone close. Near-death experiences. A religious experience (good or bad)

A lot of different opportunities.

Low