Hi Slash...

Sorry things are so tough for you right now, but that's the way it will be for a while. I know your mind will wonder whether it's worth it to stick with your W... and of course, that's entirely up to you.

I will tell you this... if your W is still in contact with the OM, counseling for her is a waste of time and money. When she's residing in the fog, the only things that make sense to her are the lies she's been telling herself to "allow" her to be involved with the OM. And that's the truth. You may, however, set up an appointment with a marriage counselor for yourself, as an indicator to your W that you are serious about giving the marriage another chance.

If she's still in contact, and not making any effort to take steps to Protect you and give the marriage a chance...it's time for you to take action... EXPOSURE!

I assume you've finished Surviving an Affair and have a good idea what might have been lacking in your marriage before the A. I assume you have taken ownership of those things that are yours to own. I assume you are changing those things for the better, and keeping the positive changes in place. I assume you have remove all Love Busters from your interactions with your W. Now that's giving you a tremendous benefit of doubt. If you have not done the above, then you are not taking a course of action that will make a difference in your future.

We can offer you advice, but we can't MAKE you do any of what we suggest. Even though it doesn't seem fair at all, the heavy lifing in saving the marriage rests completely on your shoulders. It's entirely up to you what happens.

If your W is still in contact, then you must take the very difficult step of exposing the A. Until the A is over and NO CONTACT is in place for a reasonable amount of time, little will change.

I am sorry you haven't received other responses to your posts. You may want to "start over" with a post on General Questions II, as it is much busier than this one. I am weaning from these boards, as my work has become very demanding lately. I would like for you to receive more than just my guidance, as perhaps it would be more believable for you.

You need to post as many facts as possible when you do post, so people have as much as possible to base their responses on. Slash, the less you do, the less progress will be made. The more you do, based on these MB principles, the more you will make a difference in your future, and, the better you will feel about yourself for having done so.

Best wishes,
SD

SD, thanks so much for all of your input. I hope that you keep in touch because you have been a great source of support in this very difficult time. I do take everything said here seriously and have read the book more than once. I'm doing my best to subscribe to everything but as you would probably anticipate I falter at times. First off she openly admits that she has not ended it with him. She still is seeing him though a bit less frequently so far this week. She definitely is waffling back and forth between the two of us. At times she says or does things that lead me to believe that she's going to end it with him but then there are times where she really just admits she doesn't know what to do. She really never talks to me about much of it but I gather she's having plenty of conversations with him. Basically, my voice is squelched. It seems as if no matter how I try to talk about it I end up just "pushing" or "being annoying". I know that you said that counseling wouldn't work but I still may scheduled a couple of sessions. I think that it would be worth it for me if I could get her to talk with me for 1 hour a week without it being held against me. Also, she is embarassed of what she's doing and even a stranger will make it more difficult than I can right now.

From now until Sunday is pretty much straight pain because it's party time and that's with him not me. My only solice is that Friday night she is going out with some girlfriends and I'm sure it won't involve him. Right now Saturday night is up for grabs...I bet he gets it.

She has done a decent job exposing herself but I think that back fired a little. She told a couple of her friends that I think she expected to be supportive but none of them were. That probably took some wind out of her sails. I do plan on exposing her to her family but will probably hold off until at least next week because I do see some progress at times.

I think my biggest concern right now is that I'm still struggling with how to act. First, I know that from reading the book and talking to her one of the problems has been affection. Since she is still seeing him, is there any use to working on this?

Next, it's the love busters. She openly admits that she is still involved with him and he's lobbying hard to win. She hasn't gotten completely honest with me yet so how do I trust her? Should I?

Slash, I'm a newbie, but just wanted to step in and offer some support. I'm almost exactly where you are. Close to exposing, but I think there's a moderate chance WW will break it off completely by herself. In our case WW threatened to divorce if I expose. In your case I haven't see that kind of threat or cost of exposure?

As things unfold, if WW retracts her threat, or alternatively when I become convinced that there is little chance of WW breaking it off soon, then I'll no longer be scared of the threatened divorce penalty for exposing, and will expose immediately. May do so as soon as tomorrow. I'm convinced that MB advice to expose is right on target.

Anyhoo I think I understand some of what you're feeling. It's truly terrible and nobody should have to experience it. I'm pleased you've found MB, and I hope you find the generous peolpe here as helpful as I have. They've really kept me going.

Hope you don't mind if I lurk a bit to see what I can learn from your experience or share with you.

Shattered is the best. I'm a big fan of his.

Thinking of you.

Slash, and weneedhelp...

When you behave in such a manner as NOT to do what you can to END the affair, then you become an enabler of the affair.

There are very few wayward spouses out there that will not threaten to leave before, during or right after an exposure. The truth is, however, that very few do leave and/or file for divorce.

Exposure brings the light of day onto the Affair, and it makes the participants realize, even in their foggy state, how dirty and ugly it really is. That's why affairs thrive so well in the secrecy. It is the secrecy and darkness that allows their fantasy world to survive.

If the OM is married, and you expose the A to the OM's wife, do you not think that this will bring a tremendous amount of pressure onto the OM? Of course it will!

I know your spouses will be mad, stark raving lunatic mad, and they'll utter vile spew at you for the next few days until they cool off. And during that time you will be completely under control. You will tell them that the Exposure was done because you love them, and you are willing to do whatever it takes to give your marriage a second chance... and you can mention to them that IF that adulterous relationship with their newfound "soulmate" was so wonderfully special, then why shouldn't it be shared with all the people who are near and dear to them.

You guys need to step up to the plate. A great mantra you should repeat over and over to yourselves is this... "what would I do if I weren't afraid". You two are afraid of the snarling bearcat that your wives will turn in to when the A is exposed.

Fear not....do the work. Do the exposure out of love for your wife, not out of vengence. You will make this clear to everyone you tell. You will tell these people that your marriage is in trouble, your wife is having an affair with so and so, and you are exposing the affair because you love your wife, and exposure is a necessary step in bring an end to the affair. No vengence, no name calling, no inferences, just the truth.

I don't understand why you both won't buy into this exposure. It is your best weapon in ending the "waffling" your wives are doing. Right now they have the best of both worlds, a husband longing for their love and an Other Man meeting all their immediate fantasy needs.

What compels them to STOP what they are doing? There are NO CONSEQUENCES for their actions. Those close girlfriends are your allies, and they should be included in the exposure circle. But the first and most important is the OM's wife. Share any and all evidence with her. Meet her in person and share your plan with her. Ask for her help, and refer her to this website.

Slash, don't wait, if Saturday night is "up in the air". Take action, make plans and make it something you KNOW she likes to do, and do it with flying colors. Time is wasting, every day that you do nothing at all. Doing things that MB principles recommend will give you back a feeling of power that the affair has taken away.

It's Labor Day weekend. Time to do the serious and productive LABOR of Exposure!

And no, you should not trust your wife at this time. You cannot trust your wife until NO CONTACT is in place and she's THROUGH withdrawal. Period. Until then remain suspicious of everything. Period. Totally untrustworthy. They will tell you ANYTHING to manipulate the way you feel, if it enables the A to continue. ANYTHING!

You guys up to the task?

Best wishes,
SD

Shattered thanks for the words. I'll leave this thread to you ans Slash. On my own thread I think you'll see exposure very soon. I'll update there. Sorry to threadjack, Slash, and
Best wishes!

I just have to second SD. Totally untrustworthy. I've heard little but lies for over 3 months. Doesn't matter how much we talk, how many agreements we make, how clearly we agree on the vital importance of honesty, how many MC sessions etc. Totally untrustworthy. And that seems to be nearly unanimous among all the many others on MB with similar stories.

Slash: Sorry to intrude again, but thought I'd mention I just called OMW. About 15 MB experience posters persuaded me.
Best wishes.

weneedhelp...you're always welcome. The advice here has been great and certainly should be shared. Currently, I'm still working Plan A. I don't know exactly when the affair started but I'm guessing it's about 2 months old. My wife admitted to it a little over a month ago. Recently, she 'exposed' herself to a few of her friends and some of her other friends know by way of different circumstances. I think that she was surprised that her friends didn't support her. One of her friends came down hard on her and pushed her to end it which she did but that didn't last. She has broken up with him a couple of times and has ended up back with him in a matter of days. Currently, she is claiming that she is trying to end it with him her own way. She's reduced the time that she is spending with him and has been spending more time with me and the kids. Also, she claims that they are talking about her working on it with me. Some of the stuff she mentions seems to corraborate her 'talking' theory. Maybe I'm looking for hope but I'm willing to see where it goes for now. I don't know what the timing is for everything but I'm going with what I can tolerate. So I guess the heading was just hopeful for a day or two but I'll get there or I'll get out with the help of this site, the books and the people.

Slash... I hope things are going well for you.

Please take the time to go to General Questions II, and read "weneedhelp"s entire thread. There is so much advice there, and I think it could be of help to you.

There are some parallels between your situation and his, and the info there might strike a cord or two with you.

This is a really hard thing to get through with help, let alone doing it without a strong support system.

I hope you are doing well.

SD

Please think carefully about each and every question that follows:

What excuses have you come up to forestall exposing?

Do you seriously believe your M has a chance while OM and your WW are exchanging bodily fluids?

Do you seriously believe they are not?

How long do you plan on playing the FOOL? In other words, do you seriously think you can believe your wife's words right now?

Re-read carefully the questions. We are here for you, but you need to grab a pair and wake up from your own fog!

Slash, why is this post titled "W just ended her affair"? Clearly she didn't end it but is talking with OM about YOUR future. That is what's being discussed; YOUR future.

Slash, if you sit back and accept everything you can tolerate there will be nothing left of you when she's done. Believe me. I have negotiated and negotiated with my W and 4 years later she still does exactly what she wants while continuing to negotiate. So I'm not going to call you names or try to intimidate you into doing something you're not ready to do. But I can tell you if you allow her to continue to conduct her A as long as she continues to negotiate with you, then I would say this is an easy price for her. She can keep this up indefinitely.

Just watch and listen for the recurring theme of how we can continue to maintain a relationship with this special person as long as it doesn't interfere with your M etc. You will be astounded by what you here until the point comes when it no longer astounds you. That is when you will have reached "suspended disbelief". When it will become so ridiculous what you have accepted that your mind will automatically suspend it's better judgement just to avoid overload.

I think you would be wise to follow the proven strategy of weneedhelp. If you were in any other situation and 100% of the people who had been through it were giving you the same advice wouldn't you accept that advice as gospel? Why is this different? You know everybody is right but you can't do what you know needs to be done. Good luck.

WOE

WOE your quote is great.

Heck I'm certainly not the MB poster boy. Have done a sizeable bit of it somewhat against MB principles.

* Should have discovered OM's identity earlier, rather than waiting for WW to come around and tell me everything. There was a small window of opportunity 6 weeks ago where I had a chance of killing the A, had I been prepared and taken action at that time.

* Shouldn't have tried to get WW to give me OM's identity when I could have dug it up myself earlier. Just made WW hate me more when she gave me OM's identity.

* Even after I found out OM's identity I delayed exposing in hopes WW would come around. Should have exposed earlier.

* Should have sought NC after exposure rather than NC before exposure.

* Shouldn't have tried to get WW to write a NC letter. She did, but it wasn't sincere and so almost useless, also it caused WW to hate me more. etc..

I thought I was following the right path for our particular situation, but I now think I would be better off had I listened 100%, not just 80%, to MB advice.

Might make a difference, or not. Who can say? But even if the outcome is the same, at least things would have progressed quicker had I done it 100% per MB advice.

Best wishes Slash. Let's both win our spouses back!

weneedhelp, the formula is the formula for a reason; it works. And when you deviate from the formula it lessens the chance for success. And from experience I can tell you that if you continue to play the game by the rules of a wandering spouse you will eventually wear out. There is a time frame for progress to be made. I have been at this for a long time and while I suppose I am almost recovered I am very bitter about the time wasted (4 years). So consider how much damage you are allowing your spouse to do in the name of "recovery". That additional damage will surface in the recovery process.

WOE

Wow, this thread started innocently enough. When I first posted she had ended the affair and I really just wanted to know what I should be doing/acting. Each of the times that she ended the affair it was based on pressure from me or her friends and obviously that didn't work. I know my wife and know most of her friends. In fact I have talked to all of them and every single one knows what is going on. They speak strongly against what she is doing when they talk to me but all of them except one isn't saying much to her. Basically, the one friend that did put the most pressure on her she pretty much ended the friendship because of it. At this point she has been exposed to her friends and my wife's personality has fought back. There are 2 complexities at play here. The first being that my wife is very strong willed. She is not the type to be bullied into doing something. Second, she doesn't have the best relationship with her family or my family so exposure to them is going to have little effect. He's older and never been married so I'm not sure I have much to go after on his side.

With that said, I don't feel that I'm backing down or ignoring advice but I'm backing away. I think at this point one of the topics I did get from the book is really starting to hit home. The reason to let Plan A go for a reasonable length of time is to allow me to fall out of love for her. That is definitely working. Her disrespectful, inconsiderate and selfish behaviour has really started to take it's toll. I'm not mad but I'm not hurting either. I'm beginning to question if I can or even want to forgive her at this point.

So this is where I'm at now. I do want to work on things but I can't even guarantee I'm going to be able to come back to the relationship. She claims that she wants to work on it and knows for that to happen she needs to end it with him. Also, she claims that she is working towards ending it. She has acknowledged that she failed to end it a couple of times and is trying to do it her own way now. I'm seeing some small progress being made and slight changes on her end so I'm willing to allow her some space right now without rocking the boat. Could that be a mistake? Sure, anything can backfire. Is she being deceitful at this point? Probably but it's important to me and my recovery for her to make a move. A move that she wants to make and not one that I force her to make.

Is that wrong?

Slash, do you have good information as to what she's up to? Better info could help you to make better decisions..

People here always suggest taping phone calls and keylogging the computer, but also there are some additional ideas on how to improve your info.

I just reread and see your access to her cell phone. If you feel that's not sufficient, there are other ways to get additional info.


New topic: here's a thought re leverage. In at least one other thread, OM worked in a position where he was susceptible to moral pressure on the job. In the case I'm thinking of, OM worked at the YMCA. 'Christian' being the C in the acronym. The poster exposed to managers and the board of directors, who rightly decided OM wasn't doing the right thing. OM lost his job, and has since then has had very strained relations with WW, or possibly broken it off. Not yet clear.

Anyway to come to the point; even if OM is older and unmarried, exposure may still make sense. Is OM vulnerable to pressure from his manager, board of directors, or possibly some key clients that would take their business elsewhere if they knew of the A? Or perhaps he's a deacon of his church? He holds a public post? He is a director of some organization? Has a senior position in some professional association? Anything like that?

If I'm not out of place (as a newbie myself) I'll say I know it's unfair and incredibly painful. I see you won't allow yourself to wallow in self-pity. That's good. Be strong, try to relax, get some exercise, have more fun than ever with the kids. If you're like me they're a huge source of love and affection that can help tide you through..

Slash, back to center ice to re-group here. First of all Plan A is NOT designed for you to fall out of love with your wife. It is for you to work on you and avoid love busters so she will notice your improvements. In your situation where W is deciding whether or not to end the affair, Dr. Harley advises Plan B. That is after you have done your best Plan A, you simply write a letter to your W saying how much you love her and hope that she chooses your marriage. But that while she continues her A you will not be able to be in contact with her. That is pretty much by the book.

Knowing that you're not ready to do the above, I would suggest you continue to expose to her parents and friends. You don't know who your friends will turn out to be. Forget about her being strong willed. She is killing your love for her everytime she meets this guy and refuses to commit to the marriage. And I agree that you put heat on the OM and don't discount his vulnerability.

Slash, she isn't in her right mind. You need to be the strong one. To allow the mother of your children to decide at her leisure when to end her affair is foolish. Slash, I'm being very gentle here but I want to scream. Her behavior is soooooo selfish and there is no end in sight. If you don't rock the boat who is gonna? Certainly not the OM. You are giving her the green light to continue her A and by the time she gets around to ending you won't care. Believe me I have been there and am still there. My W has been cake eating for four years. Next week is my 20th anniversary and I'm not motivated to get her a card. But the situation is very different so please don't try to call me on my approach it's apples and oranges.

Please Slash, step up the pressure. I'll try to watch out for you.

WOE

Do you seriously believe your M has a chance while OM and your WW are having sex?

And you must know that they are. Don't delude yourself that there is some hope while she is blatantly seeing OM. It is not the case and will never the case.

Thus I suggest, you expose as much as possible. See a lawyer ASAP to protect yourself, continue Plan A for a short time longer, and prepare for Plan B. In the meantime, let your WW know that her actions are very direspectful to you and the M. In other words, set some boundaries and enforce them, without LBs of course. Your wife is cake eating and will continue to do so as long as you let her.

Best

Wow, you guys are great. I really do appreciate the support and I'm thankful everyone is sticking with me even though I seem completely lost at times. Don't give up on me, as there is hope yet. Here's to my best Plan A.

We were all lost until we found this site. I hope you are reading and following "weneedhelp"s thread. There is an immense amount to read and learn there.

We all want you to get the problems in your marriage resolved, so give us all the info you are comfortable with, and we'll keep you "between the ditches".

Best wishes,
SD