When dealing with a "stuck" partner, what does one do? One partner is unemployed, the other is studying, working, taking care of much of the household chores, etc.

Husband:
Working, studying, has chronic illness which started in the course of the marriage (some blame involved), meditates to manage the illness, Wife won't go to sleep at a time that suits Husband, Wife sleeps about 11 hrs per night, doesn't make the bed, but does often make lunch or dinner. When Wife makes food, the schedule is erratic, dinner at 9PM, lunch at 3:30. Husband sometimes seems rude and unnapreciative, because Husband recognizes that rhythmic behavior leads to health and wellbeing. More on Husband -- busy, but takes time for Wife, helps Wife with career projects, website, resume, etc. Husband doing everything he can to address Wife’s issues with self-esteem, motivation, etc.

Wife
Basically unemployed, abused verbally in the home, absolutely domineering mother, other levels of abuse. Husband feels "pulled into" abusing Wife...it's as if the pattern has its own power, but Wife continuously exhibits intolerable behavior including: disrespect (ignoring), messiness, over-sleeping, lack of initiative, very harsh "start up" (when Husband says "umm, would you ... Wife interrupts and says WHAT, WHAT DO YOU WANT?!, and Husband was saying "would you like me to make you some eggs for breakfast?" Wife has major problems with keeping promises, being on time, self-discipline, etc. Wife does "do things" in spurts. Will clean up the kitchen, scrub the tub, or cook, but will often do that instead of taking care of "real" responsibilities like planning her career, earning her share of the household income, contacting potential employers, pursuing career-related projects, etc. Wife then resents doing the household chores, leaving the Husband very confused. Husband did not have an insane mother, Husband is OK with doing household chores, cooking, cleaning up after himself, etc. Wife, when she does cook, more often than not, leaves the kitchen a total mess. Husband then, the next day, cleans everything, uses the pots, pans, knives, and things -- and leaves them clean. Wife then cooks and leaves everything dirty again. The food Wife makes is made with love and care, but Husband would almost rather not have Wife cook at all, if she is going to leave so much work for him to do afterwards.

Marital Situation
Deeply in debt. A lot of sincere, deep, wonderful love. Passion for each other. Willingness to change. Husband earning about 85-90% of the monthly income the marriage partners agreed upon, Wife earning about 15% percent of the agreed upon amount. The difference is the couple’s debt. Technically, they could be evicted from their apartment due to missed rent payments.

So, my question is, what advice would you give this couple? How can Husband build consequences into the marriage without succumbing to the "pull" of the abuse. It's sad, because Wife really responds to rage, anger and negative behavior. Husband has tried the rage angle, and it seems to be the only thing that "works." Husband at first, tried to just "act like Wife's mom," and, unfortunately, the "acting job" worked, Wife softened and actually listened...but only after an "acted out" fit of rage.

Now the "acted out" fits of rage are becoming real and somewhat abusive, yet Wife continues to break promises, neglect chores, oversleep, neglect working, neglect earning money, neglect discipline, and it seems as if Wife is "sucking out" all of Husband's energy. It gets to the point where Wife will blame Husband for not “telling her what time it is!” There are clocks in the apartment, and she has a working watch, she could just look at the time.

Husband wishes deeply to do things like read Stephen Covey's "Effective Families" book, Wife does it, but erratically. Reading the book helps.

Husband loves wife, but is tempted to “give up” on the marriage and on the Wife. Maybe Wife will wake up and live her own life, if Husband divorces Wife. Maybe it would be good for her. Husband does not enjoy “who he is becoming” in the relationship. He’s becoming wife, father, mother/abuser, husband, caretaker, timepiece, career initiator, housekeeper, schedule keeper, alarm clock, etc. – all wrapped into one! When Husband “leaves Wife alone” literally weeks go by without her doing anything productive for herself, her career, health, etc. It took her 18 months just to do her resume. 18 months. And after the 18 months, the resume only got done in an “interview” fashion, with the Husband “leading” the way. Even simple discussions almost exclusively must be “led” by the Husband.

Wife often gets intimidated when expressing her opinion. In her past, she was yelled at for expressing her opinion. Her parents did not respect her wishes or desires. Yet, in the marriage, if she does not voice an opinion, it’s impossible to converse, to make decisions, to decide where to live, what kind of a home to look for, what kind of jobs to get, not to mention setting things up for kids!

These things were “buried” during the long courtship process. Now they are all coming out. The couple is seeking help from the church.

Any advice for either Husband or Wife?

Sincerely
D--

I think you are doing a good thing by seeking help in your church, and by coming here.I'm no expert, but I can tell you what I know to be true.
If what you're doing isn't working, you have to change what you're doing. Obviously, rage is a common approach to problems from her and you these days. I would suggest trying to change your behavior to reflect how you would like to be treated. Patience begets patience, love with love and so on. Be an example and also let it be known that the behaviors of the past are no longer tolerable. If she really wants it to work out between the two of you, she will be willing to eventually change her habits and behaviors.
Have you read the ENs columns on the web site. I would highly suggest that you read them and try to do the questionairre with your wife if she is willing. It's very simple, but very insightful as well. Also the LBs would be very beneficial for you both.I have also been reading Dr Phil's "Relationship Rescue" which has been a big help personally.
I hope this helps a little, and I know that someone else on here will give you more advice. Hang in there and God bless.

I'd suggest boundaries. And some maturity. If you allow yourself to get sucked in and respond in kind, it's a vicious cycle. If you see the cycle, and can analyze as clearly as you have, then I think you have the obligation to break the cycle.

I think boundaries would be foolish at this time.

Right now to me it sounds like the wife is depressed.

Many of the classic symptoms are there.

If that is the case the first order of business is to deal with the depression.

Counseling and Medication are the two things she needs first if that is the case. Unless that gets treated she will not be able to help fix the marriage.

Once she is better then it is time to bring in the LB's, and EN's. Let the wife know that being a patronizing and abusive husband is not something he wants to do. That nagging her until she does something is wrong.

Be ready to change some of the things the husband does too.

I guess you guys figured from my post that I'm husband, and that my wife is wife. OK, this is just such an embarrassing situation, and I feel like things could be so different...

Regarding depression, my wife did an immune boosting therapy, and it has helped. She has more energy and she's more positive. Still, we tried to talk about how we could resolve our current financial situation in context of our greater goals as a couple.

I'm feeling incredibly trapped. It's awful. Whenever I open up, she nails me with some hurtful comment. Even though I realize that her childhood was filled with antagonistic arguing, I thought that she would realize how hurtful she's being.

Is a man being "sensitive" when he gets hurt by his wife calling him names?

We tried to discuss things last night, and I did the best I could to be understanding about her views about how this won't work and that won't work and this is hard, and that is impossible, etc. We basically spent another evening "fixing" her.

You know, I actually need some attention as well. I need a real partner, and I want her to be that partner.

At any rate, she put her leg up on my lap, and it made me uncomfortable, so I asked her to take her leg off my lap. She wouldn't take her leg off my lap. I asked her again. She said "I want my leg there." I guess I don't know how to deal with that situation. I decided to "count" I said, I'm going to count to three, and if your leg is not off, I don't know what the consequences will be." Well, I counted and the leg was there, so I god up from where we were sitting (which was outside), and I ran away from her.

Now, my wife tends to think the situation is about her leg. It has nothing to do with her leg. It has to do with how unfairly I feel I'm being treated. I feel like I should be allowed to have preferences. Had she cared that her leg was making me uncomfortable, maybe I could have uncrossed my legs, and then her legs would not have been uncomfortable on my lap anymore. But for some reason, her thinking just doesn't go that far, and it's making me very tired trying to move the relationship into a positive, mutually beneficial space.

I'm there for her, I mean, she makes a peep, and I'm right there...from breakfast in bed to discussions, to allowing her to talk about her childhood, I mean, I'm right there.

But if I have a concern, like, hey, maybe we could wash the curtains on a schedule, that way it wouldn't be such a "chore." Or, gee, why is this moldy pot of something still here? Well, even my minor concerns are registered as complaints, she just says "stop complaining." And when I try to say "well, that's not really a 'complaint' because it's a recurring problem, and we could just solve it by talking about it..." Then she'll come back with something like "TALK TALK TALK, that's all you want to do is TALK TALK TALK."

Well, it seems like all she wants to do is fight fight fight.

Anyway, like I said, we tried to talk about how we could resolve our current financial situation in context of our greater goals as a couple. Well, that "extra" aspect of resolving our issues in the greater context of our goals was, I guess, just too much.

Is it that she can't handle that level of thinking? She makes the kind of suggestions that I know would cause more problems...I say something like, "we can't solve a problem by creating one," and instead of saying, "hmm, how would that solution cause more problems," or "OK, that's a good point, we don't want to make things worse," or anything that actually acknowledges what I've said, she just aggressively criticizes how I've said what I've said, or she'll make an unrelated comment about there being something on my shirt, or she'll change the subject, or she'll just sit there and not say anything...but she'll never get to what I actually said. She'll never get to the substance.

Where do we go from here. She threw a spoon at me and flipped my boal of oatmeal over this morning. I yelled at her.

The main reason why I'm so agitated about this, is that our relationship is actually based on deep, sincere love. I know that we could have a happy and prosperous relationship and life together. But it seems to me that she just rejects everything I do, say, try, etc. Whatever comes out of my mouth is wrong, before I even finish talking...unless I'm "consoling" or "helping" her.

But then, if I need a sounding board, things are just too difficult for her. If I have a preference, like not wanting her leg on my lap, I'm a jerk if I even express that preference.

Please help.

Something to keep in mind is that there is not buried in each person some wonderful person that just abhors what they're doing, but keeps on doing it.

By that I mean, if your W was brought up in a home where arguing and fighting and such is part of the norm, she's going to see that as part of the norm. And it's very unlikely she's ever (w/o a mindset change) going to be empathizing with you in your position and see it as any different than she already does.

You are not being "sensitive" when your W calls you names. But depressed or not, if you don't respond in a way that stops the behavior, it's going to continue. That's a boundary issue.

The leg issue? Counting was a bit "parental" (and as a parenting technique it sucks). TO be frank, after I asked politely, I would've shoved her leg off after an appropriate time period, or just left, w/o saying anything. She's already acting disrespectfully towards you, you have no reason to continue putting up with it. That's a boundary issue again.

"All she wants to do is fight fight fight". It takes 2 to fight. Again, a boundary issue. If she's raising her voice, or picking a fight, stop, say something like "I am not getting dragged into an argument" in a calm tone of voice, and walk away. LIterally. Leave, go outside, take a drive, go for a walk, etc. Boundary.

How you tell your W that her idea may cause a problem might be a problem in and of itself. But I would encourage you to read the sections on the web site abotu safe negotiation and practice those techniques.

As to your yelling at her? What did it accomplish? Anythign good besides help you feel marginally better? Didn't think so. LB's *keep* the wounds open, they *keep* the walls up, they *keep* you from making progress. So if your goal is to just sit there and stagnate, and give yourself something to ****** and moan about, then by all means, keep up the LB's. But if you want to see some progress, then *STOP* the LB's. If your W isn't emotionally mature enough to stop, that's her problem, but she *DOESN"T CONTROL YOU, YOU DO*. And so just *STOP*. As in Quit/finito/das ende/kaput/kein mehr/zero/no more.

As to the throwing the spoon at you and flipping your oatmeal? If'n it were me, I'd get up earlier and avoid her. And when she asks why, tell her that "I am not putting myself in a position where I am treated with disrespect". And then leave. Boundaries yet again.

As to the "deep and sincere love"? I'm sure that you think so. It's not like there's a meter where it can be measured. But love is as much an action as a feeling, and the two of you are not *acting* like you love each other. And all the feeling in the world isn't going to keep the actions from driving you apart.

Your W doesn't see a problem? Fine. Change yourself, she'll either come along for the ride because she sees the improvements or she won't. And then you'll be happier and if she chooses not to join you, then you can cross that bridge when you get to it.

But a *fundamental* precept of MB is that you must fix yourself. You can't fix her. You can't make her do anything. Nothing. But you can remove yourself from situations that are hurtful, and you can avoid the confrontations by just not participating.

After a period of time, you should start to see some changes. (and we may be tlaking a period of months here, not days). If in a softer moment, you can get your W to take the EN questionnaire, then so much the better.

Get the Boundaries book from Townsende. Read. Become informed. And stop doing the things that are driving you apart. She may continue, that's her poor choice, and you're not responsible for that.

You might also find tha t"being there" a bit less will help as well. You are not obligated to on one hand be at her beck and call, and a doormat at the same time. Your being there is part of a mutually respectful process, not one where one of you is taken for granted.

Thanks everyone for the input. I'd like to say that it's not entirely fair that, since I'm the original poster, everyone take my side. Maybe I'm doing something wrong as well, and I'm grateful for any advice regarding how I can personally improve.

More and more, I'm starting to recognize that we create our own realities, including health, finances, and all kinds of things that we often feel are "beyond" our control. But what I don't get is...how the heck did this happen? How on earth did I get to the point where I'm sucked into screaming matches with my wife?

Regarding counting, goodness, that was parental and silly. It's also a problem in the relationship that I'm playing many parental roles. She resents it, but she, in many ways, is the "cause" for my behavior. For example, if she weren't in bed at 11AM, when I've already been working since 8:30, then I wouldn't say to her "hey, you think you might want to get out of bed?" Interestingly, I talked with her mom about the sleeping all morning issue, and her mom said that she would sleep all the way through until the evening, if I don't yell at her and say "GET UP!!!" "GET UP!!!" Is that nuts? Her mother wants me to yell. She thinks it's the only way to communicate with her daughter (my wife).

Did I fall in love with who my wife could be, but not with who she is? We dated for a very long time, mostly because I was insecure about her past: the fighting, the abuse, her majorly abusive mother, the screaming, etc. But my, at the time, fiance, assured me that she wanted to grow and learn together. She handled the situation so well that I grew to sincerely respect her. I thought to myself "wow, she really has herself together, all this chaos, and look how professional and mature she is." It was a part of my affection for her...her stature, her maturity, her ability to NOT argue, even in difficult situations.

There were "blurps" I guess, when she totally disrespected her mother, or when she lied to her mother, but her mother was really being unreasonable.

So, I guess, it's really difficult to just walk out of the house. I work from home, how am I supposed to work? She's around the house all day. Also, I don't want to complain, but if there's someone sleeping...it's kind of hard to work.

Here's the thing that I'm having a hard time with. If yelling and fighting are LB's (does that stand for Love Buster?), then why, when I totally lose my mind and yell like a maniacal fiend, maybe even throw something, does my wife then soften and pay attention? It's like a door opens up or something. If I don't yell, my wife will just ignore whatever it is that I'm saying, unless it's trivial, pleasant, or about her. If it's about a household or relationship issue, only on rare occasion will she "open up" without some kind of "fit."

I really really don't like doing it. Like I said, at first, to get her attention, I just decided to act like her mom (raging lunatic). But it worked.

Some of our best conversations have been after I've thrown a fit. What the heck is that all about? I don't like that relationship development at all.

I even talked with my wife's mom about that, and she said, "you know how it is in our house, to scream, that is the way."

Uhh, everybody, I really don't want to scream at my wife. I don't like throwing things, and I don't like getting angry. I also don't like living in a sloppy apartment, cleaning up moldy things, and then somehow being told by my wife that she's cleaning up after me. The amount of household work I do outweighs the amount of household work my wife does by far. It really does. Also, if a "project" is actually going to get done, basically, I need to do it. For example, my wife was going to wash the curtains. Well, it's been about a week and she took down a "pre-curtain" in the bedroom. It's not clean. It's not back up on the window. And I've just started to "ignore" these things.

But how can I ignore these things? I live here too. I like to have guests over, and I don't like having to clean for 3-4 hours before guests come, just because I've "ignored" so many things lying around.

So, regarding yelling, it accomplished that I felt like crap, but that we actually had a conversation afterwards. Regarding walking out...well, it's a good idea, I'll need to figure out a way to be mobile with my work.

EN quiz? Is that "Emotional Needs?" Geeze, the topic of "needs" has been tough, because my wife keeps calling me demanding, saying that I have so many needs. Well, I just feel like it's OK for me to want the person I married to actually respond to something I've said. I mean, it might be a comment on "hey look at those apples, they look pretty good..." and my wife will just say "I think I have something in my shoe," or "I wonder where the rice is."

What's wrong with my repeating "well, what do you think about those apples?" Am I being demanding? Seriously. Now, sometimes it's about more serious topics, but these types of situations have happened, where we'll be window shopping and she'll say "look at those shoes," and I'll say, "hey wow, those are nice, what about these..." but if I say "look at that blazer," she'll say, "I have a hankering for popcorn."

What bothers me the most is the difference between pre and post marriage, and it really gets to me that divorce seems like a viable option.

After one argument, I downloaded, filled out and signed the divorce papers. Amazing how easy that was. Took about 35 minutes. She tore them up.

I've experimented with stopping "nagging," and my wife will literally sleep in every day for a week. I've tried to stop saying things about orderliness in the kitchen or around the house, but well, basically, then I wind up being a maid, or the place turns into a total wreck, which I then wind up cleaning (mostly with her help, though).

About "thinking" that we have a deep and sincere love, well, yes, actions speak volumes, and her actions seriously hurt. Actually, it's her inaction that hurts the most. She won't talk, she won't respond, and then...well, ya'll know the drill, she'll respond to yelling.

Somewhere online, I saw an ebook about changing these things around. It was kind of cheesy and written by an asian author (or at least that's what was depicted). One of the premises was that people want what they can't have. Does anybody know what ebook that might have been? I can't find it again. I will, however drum up the "Boundaries" book, but soon I'll be flooded with marital and self-improvement books.

WOW, what a long ramble. It feels good, though, to let some of these things "out."

Thanks all,
D--

I think your W is one of these people that do the absolute minimum possible when forced into change. It's not a wholehearted change, it's a begrudging, how-do-I-make this go away change.

I'd go out, and be away. You want to have friends, I'd make lots of them, and go to their house. And if your W asks you why, you tell her because you're no longer willing to put in the effort to clean up the pigsty w/o contribution, and you're too embarassed to have them over.

And frankly, I'd focus pretty much all my effort on me. And less effort deriving happiness from my W. Less effort in a combat role. Being less available to suffer the abuse. Less temptation to LB.

You can only control the things you can control. And those you can't control, you can't, no matter how much you may want to. So stop trying. You *cannot* MAKE* you W change. Only she can.

SO stop trying. Fix those character defects that are causing you to consider yelling and screaming acceptable (I realize you don't like it. Don't do it. 2 wrongs don't make it right, regardless of her family situation).

Draw those boundaries and enforce reasonable ones in interpersonal communication.

You will probably offend her horribly. If you bring home the bacon, then start managing the money. Perhaps separately. Until you W chooses to join you in a *partnership*.

This isn't a "sides" issue, I'm not taking your side, I'm on the side of marraige. But you're the only one here. And there are things you can fix. And so you need to. And your W's issues will have to wallow in their mire until she chooses something else.

Thanks for the advice. I have a few other areas where some advice could help.

First, my wife won't let me go to sleep when I want to. It's probably one of the most horrible aspects of our marriage. I'm not saying that our marriage is horrible, it's just that not being able to go to bed when I want to is very difficult for me. She'll agree to a "bed time" during the day, and then she'll come to bed 30-75 minutes later. She'll stretch whatever we're doing so that it winds up later than our agreed upon time.

Now, I feel like such an idiot talking with my wife about "bed time," but it's been a few years now, and I'm getting really miserable. There's something about those first 30-45 minutes when one gets into bed...one wants to drift off to sleep and dream happy dreams. But then, there's my wife, who admits that she tries to "steal time for herself" at the end of the day, but she'll come to bed, just as I'm falling asleep. She won't stop this behavior. I guess I could sleep in the living room, but when I've tried that, she'll whine and want me to come to bed...again, later than I'd like.

She doesn't realize that I'm busy, that my business will fail if I'm not awake and alert, that I won't be able to do my studies, that essentially things will just fall apart...which is what has happened.

My health has deteriorated, and I've done a tremendous job of healing myself...however, I really would like to be able to go to bed comfortably. It would support my health, my business, and my happiness.

She's open to talking about these things, but things are just "getting better" so achingly slowly.

It hurts that my wife's preferences are heeded with love and tenderness on my part. I need to "fight" for my preferences, or I am completely ignored. Again, I don't want to fight. I want to converse, to speak, to be comfortable and happy.

I feel like my wife and I have talked about thigs issue up, down, inside out, through and through, and we often get somewhere where I feel like we've made progress...until "bed time" comes around. Since we've talked about it so much, I'll just lie in bed, waiting for her, and after a few minutes, I'll just get angry.

I have a few options 1) Just stay up later than her and forget about my health 2) Try, somehow to fall asleep (buy earplugs, or I don't know what) 3) Get myself to the point where I can meditate so soundly that my wife entering the room does not distract my falling asleep.

Does it make sense that, if one partner comes to bed, rarely 15 minutes, usually 30 minutes, and often 1hr later than the other...and the pattern won't change, regardless of the "bed time," that it would be annoying? If I get in bed at 10:15, she's in bed at 11:00. And when it's 20 minutes later, it's the worst, because that's when I'm falling asleep.

I've tried everything I can think of. It would be nice if my wife would cooperate.

Peace,
D--

OK, so my wife had a job interview this morning. First one in a long time (she's worked I'd say a total of 18 months over the last 4 years).

My wife has a huge problem with timeliness. From getting to movies to getting to dinner with relatives to getting to professional engagements (meetings, etc.).

As I've mentioned, my wife and I made a commitment to each other as to how much each of us would earn so that I could work and finish up my studies, and so that she could work and earn...and so that we could enjoy a financially stable life with one another.

Well, I got sick a few years ago (a few months after we got married). The doctors say "chronic" and "unhealable" etc. Nevertheless, I've tackled and eliminated almost all of the illness since the diagnosis. Now, throughout being sick, I've earned about 80% of what "my share" was, and it might be a bit higher, I'd have to check. My wife has earned about 25% of what her share was supposed to be.

Now, I guess I could further seek to understand why she's decided to sink into a negative spiral, but we've talked about it a lot. She talks about the "pressure" of my illness, and we've moved out of the country, so we're definitely far from home.

But moving out of the country was what she wanted. Her family environment was so negative (her mother, specifically), that everyone in her family said that it was the best idea for us to move away. My wife really lit up like a light bulb when we talked about moving, she was so happy, and I felt happy, as the husband, to be able to bring her to a better place.

Well, she expresses the desire to move, we move. We get here, and she hates it here. She insisted for 18 months that there were no opportunities for her here, but she wouldn't even do her resume. She slept basically all day. We went places, saw things, spent money, and I got sick.

Basically, we've spent all of the money I had saved prior to getting married on my treatments, and I am now capable of treating myself. In other words, my condition is manageable, under control, and receding. It was a degenerative condition and I don't really want to go into detail on this forum. Also, there's something comforting about the anonymity of this forum. If I describe my situation too closely, I get worried that someone I know might put the pieces together and confront me.

Also, my wife and I have an agreement to keep "our stuff" private. So, I'm doing that.

Back to this morning. So, I had to iron and thereby dry her pants for her. I made a quick breakfast, which she ignored. And...she left too late to make it to her interview on time.

The secretary who called mentioned $30-40/hr part time! What an incredible opportunity! It might be perfect for her and wow, if so, it would make up for all the months that she didn't make her share. We'd pop back into a financial comfort zone in just a few months.

And she left late.

I can't believe it.

With my medical condition, it would seriously help me heal, if we could go to bed at a regular time...she won't do it. We've talked about it and talked about it, and she will sincerely commit to going to bed at a particular time, but she simply won't do it.

For me, the time itself is an issue, due to how it affects my health. But the repeated broken promises regarding "bed time" are starting to wear me down.

Her leaving late for her interview, even if she gets the job, it's just a continuation of a very very annoying, toxic relationship-busting characteristic. It's negatively affecting my business (sleepy man is not a happy or successful man), it's negatively affecting my health, it's negatively affecting our sex life (by the time she comes to bed, I'm really tired and irritated), it's negatively affecting our social life (friends know us to come late all the time), it's negatively affecting our ability to enjoy entertainment (she won't make it to movies or concerts on time, and we often wind up in such a hurry that we are literally running with full stomachs to get to some kind of event).

And now, an opportunity came up for her to earn her share, and she leaves late for the interview.

I printed everything out for her. The map for how to get there and how long it would take. I even printed some sheets on the company so that she could review them before her interview. I did all that last night.

...15 min before she needed to go...she got in the shower...she had been up for over an hour!

She forced herself into a frenzy and ... the usual mess.

I'm all for growing and learning in a relationship, but what do you do when one partner has destructive habits, recognizes them, talks about them, but won't let go of them.

Sincerely,
D--

I have this feeling you're not going to like what I have to say about this situation.. but I'll say it anyway.

I think you are contributing greatly to the problem.

You have assumed a 'management' or 'parental' role with regards to your wife. I'm sure you'll say she's 'forced' you into to it because if you don't say.. wake her up each day.. then she'll keep sleeping, etc. But, really, if I were you, I'd take myself out of the role of being her parent/manager/etc and allow her to get up or not get up, work or not work, succeed or not succeed on her own.

Part of the problem is that you are making all these 'we' plans when it's crystal clear that she's not on board with actually doing the plans. I suspect she 'agrees' for the sake of stopping the discussion but she really has no ownership in any of the agreements because she doesn't actually participate much in creating them - you're the one who's doing all the steering.

Right now, you DO need boundaries. The problem is that most people tend to associate boundaries as things that we do TO other people or even as ways to 'punish' people for not doing what we want to do. That's not what I want you to do.

What I'd really like to see you do is:

First, recognize that your plans are not joint.

Make some plans that only involve you and your contribution. Leave her role out of it. In other words, it's time for you to put down the joint plans that you've made and start making a plan that's based in REALITY - what you have to work with at the moment - using the REAL income, the REAL expenses, and the REAL amount of effort that's being put forth.

Let her manage her own life and stop taking such ownership of her life: stop waking her up, printing maps for her, doing her ironing, etc. Let her make it to her job interview because it's IMPORTANT TO HER to go - not because you're ushering her out of the door.

I'm not suggesting that you leave her or be mean to her or be cruel to her. I'm suggesting that you draw a BOUNDARY around YOUR OWN behavior and STOP managing her life and helping her avoid the consequences of her choices. As far as I can tell, if you keep stepping in and taking over, she's going to let you do it. What needs to happen is for you to step away and let her stand on her own.

You can't learn her life's lessons for her - not even if you really want to.

Mys

Thank you very much for your reply. I find it unfortunate, yet likely true that our plans are not joint. Frankly, I really think that sucks.

Teamwork is fun. It's fun to make a dream together and then do everything to accomplish it. I think it sucks not to have a willing partner, someone who will actually make a family mission as per Stephen Covey...not to have someone who wishes to create a vision and work together to accomplish it.

My wife and I did make a family mission, and we posted it on our bedroom door. Each of us was supposed to write little notes and comments on what we wanted to add to our family mission, or what we wanted to change. Well, I was the only one who wrote any notes. I was the only one who added anything, edited anything etc. Eventually, after a few months, the mission statement was just dropped.

Here's a problem. My wife teaches private students at home. We share a studio. The studio is our living room. Today, she had a student at 4PM. She is an excellent teacher, but she only has 2 regular students right now. She could easily have many more...I've coached her through the beginnings of a marketing plan, which, of course, she hasn't implemented. At any rate, as usual, the living room/studio was a mess. I'm thinking...is she going to do anything or not, so I waited. 3PM rolls aroung...nothing. Now, like an idiot, I started cleaning up, thinking that she would help. She starts sweeping crap into corners with a broom! What the heck? She takes books and things and piles them on top of papers on our sofa chair...She basically "covers things up." She does this a lot. It's really strange. It takes the same amount of time to take the things, stack them, and put them in our walk-in closet, which is kind of a catch-all for "I'll organize this later." Anyway, why sweep something into the corner, if a) everyone can see the corner is dirty b) you have to expend effort c) with the same amount of effort, you can have a clean floor.

So, my wife jumps into the shower. Great. I vacuumed, mopped, and undid all of her little piles and put them into the walk-in closet.

Now, she is giving her lesson, and of course, the place is comfortable and clean...because I cleaned. The same thing happens before friends or relatives come over, and frankly, sometimes, we really do have excellent teamwork in these situations...sometimes my wife really does contribute.

What do I do, if my wife's failure to manage her own life winds up reflecting poorly on me?

I also teach lessons from our home studio. Of course, before my students come, it's "my job" to clean before the students come. I can think of one exception, when I had several morning appointments, and I asked my wife to have the place OK for a lesson, and she did do it.

Yes, I am helping my wife "avoid" the consequencs of her choices. But isn't a marriage about sharing, about learning from one another? About maximizing oneself through adding each other's strengths? Isn't a marriage about being open to learn and grow with and from each other? I thought a marriage was about "us," not some antagonistic competition between a husband and a wife.

I want an "us" marriage. I want to learn and grow and share and have fun. I don't want to get barked at when I'm offering to make breakfast for my wife. I don't want to live in a messy apartment when cleaning should be the easiest thing to organize and enjoy.

Yes, I'm a goofball. I'll put on music, sing and clean OK? I do things, work hard, and like to have a good attitude while doing them. Also, I understand that to get results, one needs to "pay the price."

I try to walk past my wife's cotton balls on the floor, and I can walk past them for a few days, but after about day 3, I generally say something. Then, I'm COMPLAINING. So, to avoid being yelled at, I've started being a husband/father/mother/maid/alarm clock/manager/dishwasher...

I know that I would thrive, if I weren't in this kind of environment. I don't want to get a divorce, but my wife whines so much, and yes, I listen...but I'm about listened out! It doesn't matter how little money we have in our bank account, she'll whine until she gets something she wants that costs money. It's mostly that she needs to "do" something that costs money: movies, going out to eat, a day-trip of some kind, some other kind of entertainment.

I can have fun playing cards. I can have fun giving my wife a massage and getting one in return. These kinds of things are much more rewarding to me than going off and being entertained. I enjoy entertainment, I enjoy doing all kinds of things, but if one is in a situation where money is tight, one can't just continue spending as if everything were "normal." And one shouldn't do that if one isn't earning one's fair share.

So, I've allowed my credit rating to suffer, I've maxed out my credit cards, and I've really done a lot of helping.

Focusing on "just me" right now would really hurt. Maybe it's what I need to do, but I feel abandoned by my wife.

Also, I'd actually like to share my issues too. I'd actually like to have someone listen to me and give me as much as I've given my wife. Someone willing to assist, generous with advice, or just willing to listen. Someone who's confidence in me is unending, the way I have utter confidence in my wife.

It's funny. I've expressed utter confidence in my wife, and there have been some incredible results. There really have.

I go out of my way for my wife. As a matter of fact, I've gone WAY out of my way for my wife. (Working on something for her all night because it's an emergency, driving insane distances, etc. etc.)

She doesn't go out of her way for me. It really hurts.

I thrive in a team setting. My marriage was supposed to be the "ultimate team." It was supposed to be fun, rewarding, exciting, and enjoyable.

If we were playing tennis, it's like I'm hitting balls to her, and she just won't hit them back. Sometimes she'll just hit the ball out of the court.

Thank you for your advice on how I can change my behavior to benefit myself and the situation.

D--

Also, I am very interested in understanding how I am contributing to the problem.

Another thing is, how can I get to bed when I want to in this situation? Seriously. I could really use some suggestions.

D--

D--


You're welcome.


You know, not everyone would consider making a family mission statement 'fun.' I want to talk to you about perceived effort. Perceived effort is how much work something feels like to accomplish something. For example, some people really enjoy gardening. They find it relaxing and fun. To those people, there is very little perceived effort to weeding out a flower garden. On the other hand, I don't like gardening. Weeding a flower garden requires a huge amount of perceived effort from me.

Similarly, I think that some people - your wife possibly - feel that creating strategies and mission statements is a lot of work - it's something you do if you're required to do it and not because it's fun or grants her a sense of accomplishment.


This type of exercise would have an extremely high perceived effort for someone like me. It's not that I don't like being organized - I do - but I can't even imagine making a mission statement about our marriage. Now, I'm not saying it's inherently a bad idea. I'm just offering you a perspective that what you might find fun, other people would find tedious and difficult.


It's possible that those thngs aren't important to her or, to put it another way, those considerations do not factor into how she perceives the success or failure of the situation. One thing you can almost always count on in this life is that someone, somewhere is going to have a different perspective on things than you do. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />


I'm going to assume this is not a rhetorical question and answer it seriously.

First, you recognize that the things you prioritize probably not occupy the same positions of importance in her value system. Next, you negotiate ways for her to be enthusiastic about helping you achieve your priorities. That means that you ask her what it takes for her to be happy about accomodating you - not that you convince her that your priorities are right or correct. Usually, that's accomplished by offering her something of equal or greater value to HER.

Any attempt by you to convince her that your priorities are better, right, correct, etc, is a huge love buster called a disrespectful judgement. Leave her to her own opinions and negotiate behavior. Finally, if there isn't a way for you to reach an agreement that accomodates you, then you take responsibility for your own feelings and either 1.) choose to do what you need to do to feel all right with yourself or 2.) choose to deal with the situation as it is. At no point is it going to be productive or wise for you to try to change your wife's opinion. Work on negotiating for behavior instead.


Well, that's your vision of what a marriage is. Have you ever asked your wife what she wants out of marriage and listened to her answer? If so, what did she say?

It might be that you two don't have a common vision on what marriage should be. Don't take for granted that she shares the same one you do - she's a different person.


Again, you don't get to determine what her perceived effort is.


As I said before, you need some boundaries.


I understand that is how you feel but I really am concerned that you have a totally different vision of what marriage is than your wife does and that some (if not many) of your expectations are unreasonable in relationship to that. Now, I am NOT saying that your expectaions are unreasonable by themselves.. but CLEARLY they are not part of your wife's plan for her life and behavior. If they were, she'd be doing them and we wouldn't be having this conversation. Can you see the difference between the two statements? Your expectations or desires are in and of themselves just fine BUT in the CONTEXT of your current, actual relationship, your expectations don't seem to be doing anything other than helping you build resentment at a rather alarming rate.


You need her consent, cooperation and enthusiasm for all those things.


As I said, I just get this impression you two have totally different visions of what marriage or 'going out of your way for each other' amounts to. Until she's enthusiastic about doing the things you want her to do, you're just not going to be able to drag her to where you want her to be and that's the reluctance you sense.

Slow down some, ok? Find out where your wife wants your marriage to go then build a COMMON vision that you've both created, both want, and both understand.


By managing her life and doing things for her the way you think they should be done instead of letting her figure out how to do them on her own.

Here's an analogy. Many years ago, my mother had a stroke and was paralzyed. When she was in rehab, we were called into a meeting and told by the staff that we HAD to allow her to do things for herself even if it took her 3 times longer and 10 times as much effort as it would take us. Simple things like getting things off the floor with her new grippers without falling out of her wheelchair to going to the bathroom by herself were essential for her to learn in order to get the most out of her life. It is so hard to stand by and watch someone struggle to do something that you find 'easy' and that you can do better in a fraction of the time. Yet, sometimes that's the very best thing you can do if you care about someone.

What you do to contribute to the situation is to always step forward and do what (you think) needs to be done instead of letting your wife figure out how to do things for herself. She's a big girl now - why don't you let her figure out how to get up in the morning by herself? Why don't you let her figure out how to go to her own job interviews?


Just go to bed when you're tired. If she continues to wake you up, is there another room that you can sleep in?

Mys

Hello,

Reading your posts indicate to me that you simply married the wrong person for you. Imagine what it would be like if you had married the right person. I think it is a matter of time before you will say enough is enough. Your wife sounds very immature and selfish. You are a victim because you allow yourself to be victimized. You want an equal partner in your relationship but unfortunately, you married a child/woman. I am afraid that your future will be exactly like your present. You used the words that she is toxic to you. If something is toxic to you, do you continue to use it?

My wife and I really do enjoy spending time with one another. Many couples express that they wish the "had" what we have...but they don't know the flipside of the coin.

I'm presenting all of the frustrations here because I can. Because this is an anonymous forum. There are many good, warm, sincere moments.

I still hold on to the warmth of our love for one another, regardless of how ridiculous that might sound.

My mother in law is visiting. She is incredibly draining. She yells, accuses and screams. But she does love her daughter, and she said that she wants to know what in the world it was that was so bad that she did to her daughter.

Maybe my mother in law's visit will somehow be healing. Maybe my wife will finally start showing some initiative. What concerns me, is that my wife confuses initiative with abandonment and she confuses independence with strength. What I mean is that, yes, recently she had made an effort. She's started cleaning up after herself. She went on some job interviews. Yet, she doesn't seem willing or able to craft a life vision with me. She just implements quick, generally destructive solutions to her perceived problems, and thereby makes greater problems.

And I have to patiently "watch" this happen? If we could just have a good discussion beforehand, she could avoid all the trouble and work in a team with her husband.

Maybe I really did marry the wrong person. Maybe this is something that can be gotten through. But at this point, we really need your prayers. We're struggling financially to the point of breaking.

I keep "helping" my wife, yet I neglect myself. My mother in law accuses me of not helping my wife enough. I have the feeling that if I help my wife any more, she'll stop wiping her own XYZ!

There are a few rays of hope.

Frankly, I want this marriage to work out. But I do need our situation and the way I am treated to change.

Mys, I appreciate your thoughtful and insightful reply very much. The concept of "perceived effort" has helped.

Sincerely,
D--

Folks, I'm really hurting. That's all I can say. I am Mr. Bailout, and my wife continues to sleep long hours and make and break promises. We're basically financially ruined. I guess I've tried my best to help her somehow learn to help herself, but in the meanwhile, I've completely abandoned myself. I'm physically ill, and everything has been on "my bill." In other words, it's my credit rating that has suffered, etc.

If my wife would just let me go to sleep, I could get us out of this financial bind. If my wife would care about the kinds of foods I want to eat, then maybe I could heal from my illness.

My wife is a lovely person. On the outside, we are the "perfect couple." We look great, and sometimes, we share a wonderful warmth. Friends who are marriage counselors actually consider us an examplary couple, because we do things together and we cooperate so well.

And our relationship looks more like what you've read here...at least on the inside.

It's true that I've only shared the worst aspects of my marriage here, but I am being honest.

Only since my mother in law's visit has it been revealed to me how truly abusive my wife's mother is and was. My wife is incredibly abrasive to me...yet her mother was abusive and abrasive to her. While we were dating, my wife was much more friendly to me, now that we are married, things are very different.

I don't want a divorce, since there are rays of hope, and I know that my wife has a good heart. I know it, and there is no denying it, no matter what anyone on this forum might say. She has a very very good, kind, and beautiful soul.

I just can't be treated with contempt for no reason. I just can't stand her abrasive behavior. I simply can't take it that she won't have a normal conversation with me about everyday decisions. She'll just abrasively state some completely useless "solution," and get mad at me for wanting to actually discuss the decision until we make a good one. She won't hear it. It's sickening, and I'm actually physically ill. I became ill in the marriage, not before it. I'ts true that I might have become ill, even without getting married, but the stress of the marriage may have contributed.

I pray that our marriage come into a state of marital and financial harmony, and I ask for you to do the same.

Please pray for us.

Sincerely,
D--

Hello.
I'm new to the forum but wanted to ask you if you thought your wife had emotional issues? She sounds very immature in the way she deals with conflict and the way she creates conflict in the first place. Neither of you sound like you use logic to interpret and communicate with eachother. She runs on her emotions and you fuel the fire.

I would also suggest that she is depressed. It seems to me too, like another poster suggested, that you are playing the father figure to her. You are contributing to her lack of initiative and not allowing her to deal with the consequences of her innaction like she should. You're the one who nudges and nudges, or cleans up the mess, so to speak.
As for sleeping, I would put my foot down about this. She obivously isn't understanding that you are seriously being drained. You could sleep in another room if she continues the behavior. Really, if she continues to ignore your request for sleep, I would definitely say she has problems. There's something wrong with a person who continually ignores common sense or a reasonable request such as sleep.
Depression and emotional immaturity come to mind when you talk about how she behaves, and how she reacts to you.
I would suggest your wife get to the doctor to check on depression, and perhaps seek therapy. IF that isn't possible, both of you should do the Q & A's here, write down your emotional needs and discuss them.
Good luck.

Dear Burla,

Thank you for your comments. Frankly, I always figured I used calm, rational discussion before...at least that's what prevailed in my family. I like discussing...I also enjoy improving my strengths and facing my weaknesses. In a way, my life has been defined by facing and improving on weaknesses.

Basically, earlier today, it turns out that my wife lied to me. The lie cost us money. Money we can't afford right now.

There's a very hazy, kind of vague "maybe-ish" way to "kind-of" see what my wife said as "not really a lie" or "wishful thinking," but well, she looked me in the eye and said one thing, and what she said was half of the truth. The other half cost us money...and she hid that from me.

When does the "better" part of "for better or worse" start?

I have to say that I don't think she's depressed. I just think she doesn't want to face life. She's more afraid than depressed. She'll do things with me. She'll meet people, she'l laugh. Now, she can't get anywhere on time. Jobs, meetings, dinners, movies...rare rare things she gets to on time. That's an issue of being disrespectul, not of being depressed. I would think that she'd be "sad" if she were depressed. But she's not generally sad, she just stays in bed. Then, she won't really do anything productive.

Her actions have left us in dire straights. It's all on my credit, not on hers...but I'll work my way out of it, with or without her.

What's really sad is that she has such a kind soul. She really does. There are so many reasons why we're a great couple...truly great partners.

Now that I am confronting her with the lie that she told me, she wants to get divorced.

Why can't she just face that she didn't tell me the truth? All she'd need to say is something like "I did mislead you on that...sorry, I really wanted xyz to work out..." Well, if she hadn't lied, then everything would have worked out a whole heck of a lot better.

It's so hard to believe that I'm in this situation with my wife.

D--