She says she has not received the results (test was Wed 20JUL). Usually when I had test done in the past they came back within ten days, am I right?

No, I myself have not been tested for STDs. It has been months since we had sex with each other, looooong before the A. She never has been the "Type" to mess around, I probably would have gotten a hint in our 10 yrs together before this.

And of course the last time we did have sex, it was an extortion on my part. She wanted to take a day off work and we had a "deal" (*barf*) and I was all like "then you know what you gotta do" (*triple-barf*).

I know now that this was abuse and I have read the whole MB article an sexual aversion. It really makes me literally sick to my stomach to know that I did that to her. It's a wonder she even lets me sleep in the same bed with her, now that I think of it.

I also have a very real fear that she'll never let me touch her again. I wouldn't blame her, but I can't go sexless the rest of my life, KWIM?

She won't seek counseling or read anything having to do with relationships. It's kinda weird that she'll take the ADs but not go talk to someone or take a 10-minute Emotional Needs Questionnaire. It could be embarrassment, continuing contact, or withdrawal, I guess.

Tonight I am making dinner for her and baby and I will try to not say one word about our relationship and let her relax. It seems to be what she wants, and it's the least I can do to make up for being an a$$ho!e before. None of this needs to be solved overnight, I guess. She's staying here and being kind ('cept when I screw up and push things), she's talking about future plans for baby and yard and house, so superficial will have to do for now.

Thanks again. I will go to the Doctor and roughly explain the situation, see what he thinks or where he can refer me. ADs would probably let me make clearer decisions and keep my big mouth shut and not turn into a weepy schoolgirl (when I read your closing "I will keep you in my prayers", I just about bawled), at least that would make her more comfortable too.

Means a lot to me that you, FF (and CarenMc too) would take the time to help me when you obviously don't know me. I really want to be the H she needs, but I have always been a Taker, I guess, so changing my ways is hard, but I am beginning to see the light at the end of the tunnel, maybe not for my marriage yet, but at least for me.

DG, that is the big AHA! moment. Yes, keep working on you. BTW, a tip on crying...I cried many, many times in the shower.

Well, last night went pretty well. When she left for work this morning I collapsed on a chair in the living room from I guess stress. I didn't cry or freak out or anything, just really tired. I was never a good actor, and I am somewhat of an artistic soul, so my emotions have always ran pretty close to the surface and I have never really tried to deny them like this before. I got up and did some more tile grouting in the bathroom.

Seems like the more I can show her that I am OK with this whole thing, the more she likes being around me. I read some dating advice somewhere about how women are attracted to emotionally invulnerable and unstoppable men because they are more likely to be able to deal with the pressures of life and take care of them; seems like it holds true.

She has asked my "Why aren't you mad?". I just told her that I am still a little mad but mostly just sad for the death of our previous relationship (which is stupid, I guess, 'cause it obviously wasn't working and we were at each other's throats [figuratively] all the time).

So I guess continuing to mourn is pretty stupid, dumb, and counter-productive. If I can get over this depression, I think everything might just work out. I don't feel like crying today. Maybe it was the weekend, being with her all the time, having to watch her strut (in my perception, of course) around in her underwear, trying not to follow her around like a puppy, her asking me all the time what's wrong, et cetera.

Positive things I have noticed about her behaviour:
1. She is here every night and, as far as I can tell, going to work every day.
2. We have been spending recreational time together (mostly watching TV 'cause it's what she likes to do, and probably because she doesn't have to look at me the whole time?)
3. She started helping out with housework, cooking, and even tried to weed a garden or two outside.
4. She has left her cell phone here all day with me yesterday and today it is here again; OM has not called unexpectedly (at least on that phone; she works for a cell phone company and is responsible for buying all their phones and paying all their bills and keeping track of all their accounts, so we won't even go into proving NC).
5. She lets me sleep in bed with her and lets me touch her by putting my arm over her, or a hand on her hip. She has even tried to touch me a few times by caressing my shoulders or putting her hand on my neck or back for a few minutes. When the morning comes I am always invariably aroused, and she has even let me snuggle against her in this condition while she is half-asleep which would not have been an option before ("Stop rubbing that thing up against me like a dog!"). She has even let me caress her butt a little. I am careful not to push it or try anything beyond that, and I keep my hands off of myself so as not to get too aroused or do something she finds repugnant. I also don't say anything at all for fear she would take it the wrong way. If she seems resistant or breathes funny or anything like that I withdraw and try not to take a deep breath.
6. She says she understands about my depression, she was right there before. I told her that I knew I had no right to ask her to help me through this, 'cause I didn't help her when it was her hurting, but that it probably would speed our recovery if she were a little more considerate of my feelings, and she has been trying. At least she does ask me what's wrong, sometimes even with genuine concern instead of annoyance.
7. She keeps discussing plans to change the baby's room, finish basement, get another clothes dryer, a new mattress for our bed (it is old), "we're gonna hafta move when the baby gets bigger", et cetera. This is really heartening to me because I don't think if she planned on leaving, if she were still in withdrawal, et cetera, she would talk like this. My dishonesty-radar has not gone off about these conversations like it would be some elaborate subterfuge to string me along.

None of this proves that she is having NC, but whatever. I think maybe she is still distracting herself with this type of conversation so she doesn't have to think about what she did. Maybe she has moved on to conflict stage?

Even if she is still in contact, what does that mean to me? Yeah, it would be nice to know for sure, but does two nights of EA and one night (possibly two) of PA where she said the sex was lousy, OM has a premature ejac problem, "it wasn't even like real sex", she felt shi++y, et cetera, make for a long-lasting emotional attachment? I guess it will all come out in the wash. I still want to be the best man I can be for her so even if she does split, she won't see the pathetic half-drunk self-absorbed pig that I was before standing there waving farewell.

Night before last (same day as last post), I finished the tile replacement and grouting in the bathroom and then cleaned the whole tub and bathroom floor and had a bubble bath (with flowers and a candle) ready for her when she got home. I did not get a big OMG reaction, but she did say wow and I think she appreciated the effort, at least. I told her I wasn't trying to get sex, to just accept it as a gift because I know I have been a little rough on her, pushing her to communicate openly and fill out the ENQ, read articles, books, et cetera. Every time I do that stuff she backs off for a few days. She thinks I am trying to domineer her and make her the way I want her to be. I am just looking for some communication and compassion, but she's not ready yet so I guess I'll continue to "Plan A" my a$$ off with no assurances about NC.

My mom said that since I am an analytical person and WW is not, that me trying to push things would be counter-productive because of WW's guilt and shame. My mom said to "just be there for her and trust her". So do I really trust WW at this point or just pretend to trust her and keep snooping, making myself paranoid, getting upset about every little thing? Hmmm...

Forgot to add that last night she asked me (kinda irritatedly) if there was someting she wasn't doing that I want her to do, so I said about not being able to prove NC and not seeing her cell phone call records shook me up last week. She said something like "like I have enought time to meet anybody". I then mentioned about phone contact being just as bad as physical contact, and she just said "I don't want to argue" and went to sleep (yes, just like that). I sucked it up and read a book for a while and then went to sleep. When I went to sleep I made sure not to touch her at all, all night and this morning. I am not sure why I did that.

So she probably is still in phone contact and doesn't realize about why that cpntact is so important to break. She still claims NC, but figures what I don't know won't hurt me, it's not that big an emotional attachment, et cetera.

I don't want to give her any ultimatims at this point, so I'll try to coast as long as I can.

If I do confirm continuing phone contact, does that automatically mean to go to Plan B? This could get messy 'cause neither of us can afford the house alone, so my greatest fear would be walking out that door or kicking her out, because she won't understand (or believe) that I did it for the best for both of us and she will think I am giving up, abandoning her again, trying to domineer her, et cetera.

She has not earned your trust back. That can take work and a lot of time. At this point I would assume contact continues on a limited basis and continue plan A for now. The things you are doing are great, do you know what her top EN's are?

WW will not fill out ENQ.

Her main complaint was that I was not helping out enough with house, yard, and baby. I have been trying the best I can under these circumstances, and I am getting limited positive responses.

1. Yard work is done and I have to admit the place looks a lot nicer for it.
2. Have been doing laundry like a maniac, not saving it up for the weekend.
3. Cleaning out basement and carport.
4. Baby: Goes without saying that I had the baby by myself during the affair, and I am home with her this week while WW is at work (I hope) because babysitter is on vacation. I also feel I have been the primary caretaker since this whole thing started, preparing meals, changing diapers, getting her up and putting her down, taking to and from babysitter, et cetera. WW has been helping out more lately and definitely loves her daughter, but I think this may partly be so I can't claim primary caretaker later?
5. Finished and am continuing some projects at house, like the bathroom tile, hanging some new shutters she always wanted.
6. Keeping kitchen clean so most nights she doen't see a mess in the kitchen when she gets home. Another of her big complaints.

She also asked me to quit drinking too much, so I have hardly had a drink since D-day (had one or two mixed drinks over the weekend). She said that when we have argued in the past, it's always worse if I'm drinking, so I have knocked it off (no shakes or anything nutty like that). I also know that alcohol is a depressant and not what I need in this situation, will only make things worse, magnify negative emotions, et cetera. No big deal. The drinking was for me just something to do at night that made me feel "good" while she kicked me out of the bedroom and screamed at me incessantly. Wrong thing to do, but there it is. She also has some baggage from a previous relationship where the guy was a drunk, hung out at bars all night every night, and basically cajoled her into getting an abortion when he knocked her up. I can understand the aversion to alcohol.

I have some baggage from a previous relationship where I got played like a fool and strung along from day one by a real cake-eater, which may be one reason I can't seem to calm down or not be suspicious.

I called the counselor that they referred her to at her annual, that person is referring me up the chain. They are a post-partum depression unit, acted kinda surprised that a man would call about himself, so I hope I can find someone good or get a good referral.

She has stopped saying "I love you", claiming that they're only words. She still gives me a kiss on her way out of the house, but I'm sure it's just to placate me. Last week she was sympathetic to me, now she's tired of hearing about my feelings and will not talk about any relationship stuff. I think there may have been resumed contact late last week, maybe even another PA during "work" hours. So I guess the fog has returned and the "glow" I see in her is not the Zoloft making her better, she's probably thinking how alive she feels, eating her cake. Ugh! I hate to think that the medication could be making her sharper and more alert, better at sneaking around, better able to cover her tracks. I hate to think she is turning into the type of person that thinks it is OK to "have a little something going on the side", because I would know that it was me who turned her that way.

She also said she knows I feel like $hi+, but that she feels fine. I said that's another thing that kinda scares me, that she seems to be so OK with all this (not yelling or even raising my voice, no LB). No response.

These are all very good changes, especially the alchohol. If you need to medicate yourself do so with AD's not drink.

Continue in plan A and assume contact at this point. Cut back on the ILY's and keep taking care of the baby. You are doing fine.

Look in the phone book for a Christian Counseling center. They tend to be more pro M than most.

Also, DG. Have you considered phone counseling with the Harley's?

DG, I am taking a breather from MB. I will ask a couple people to keep an eye on your thread. You will continue to be in my prayers. I'll check on ya when I get back.

Hi DG,

FF asked me to look up your thread. You are doing good things to an unappreciative person. Here are a few suggestions:

1. Read the book: His Needs/Her Needs By Dr W. Harley. It will teach you how to speak and listen to a woman vs a guy.
Interesting reading even without dealing with a WS.

2. Set a goal of the changes you want to make to and for yourself. Mark off what you have already accomplished. Don't make the goals to high or the list too long. Keep it simple.

3. Set a plan for yourself and when you are comfortable with your changes and she is still not cooperating, think about implementing a plan B. Put your mind and heart in sync 1st. This is real important.

Let us know your thoughts after you read SAA and HnHn.

take care,
L.

Update:

WW is still home. She is still hanging out with me every night and even comes home for lunch with me (we both work near home). So if there is a PA, it has to be during work hours.

Last weekend we dropped the baby off at my parents after we spent the afternoon at her family reunion on Saturday, and went on a car trip to Chinatown in a nearby city. We spent Saturday night in a hotel, eating take-out and watching TV.

Last night she was reading a book and I sorta made a pass at her, rubbing her hips and stomach and kissing her on her neck and shoulders. She ignored me, smiled and kept reading, eventually gently pushing me off, saying that I was pushing it. I made it clear that I was not making a pass to satisfy myself, but to return "favors" that she did for me, willing and extorted. She said something about "pity attention" or something like that and went back to reading. Whatever; I didn't whine or act like a baby about it, I just rolled over and read my book for a while.

I asked her this morning if what I did last night grossed her out or made her uncomfortable and she said "no". I can't read her anymore. I am so paranoid that I am seeing something sinister in EVERYTHING she does or says.

For Example:
The ONS A was on 08JUL2005
Went to her annual on 20JUL2005
She said they did a blood test for pregnancy and STDs and that she "definitely wasn't pregnant".
Now it's 19AUG2005 and she is worried because she hasn't gotten her period yet (she swelled up last week and was more irritable).
So the other morning she said something about "hope I'm not pregnant".
This set me suspicious mind to work instantly. If she had a test and a period last month, why is she worrying about pregnancy now?
I asked her as much today, and she said "well, sometimes women have 'false periods' even after they are pregnant, and the test was only 12 days after, so maybe the test was wrong..."
She also said that she isn't messing around on me now, hasn't since the A, et cetera, et cetera.
Also, have not seen an insurance bill for the annual appointment (to see what procedures they really performed)or received STD test results in mail.

DG, it sounds like your plan A is going well. I don't know what to say about the pg test stuff. I would lay off the SF stuff a bit and just be affectionate with her instead.

So Friday night I picked her up at work (I even went in to the receptionist's desk and waited for her) and we went to the store to fill her AD prescription. She walks over and picks up a pregnancy test box and puts it in the basket. This whole time she is being ultra-affectionate, holding hands, brushing her nails up and down my forearm, standing real close, et cetera. I am high as a kite because she is touching me, whispering in my ear. We stop and get some other stuff and look at DVDs at blockbuster. I tell her again that no matter what happens, I will stand by her. When I ask her why she is buying the two-pack of pregnancy tests, she tries to joke with me and says "next time". Not f-ing funny, but I laughed it off and told her jokingly "you're killing me, you know that". Later she said that she might like to have another kid (yes, with me) so we could use the other test for the right purpose. Then we go home. She immediately pulls out the pregnancy test and goes into the bathroom, then yells for help with the directions, asks me to read the results. It's "Not Pregnant". She is obviously relieved. We go to watch TV, next thing I know, we are kissing, WITH TONGUE. I kind of gloated and said about getting to first base with my wife, and she says, "yeah, but who says you will get any farther". I ask her later if she meant that crack about not getting further than first base meant for ever, and she says no and I say "just checking", trying to stay cheerful.

Then come Saturday and Sunday. She won't touch me again, is passive when I touch her. We go to pick up our daughter at my parents Saturday (they are watching her for a few weeks while babysitter is on vacation) to keep her for the night. She is pleasant with them, does not have a clue that they know about the affair, and they are nothing but supportive and giving for us. She is distant from me. Sunday was even worse. She cannot seem to get out of bed again (we did stay up late), very withdrawn, does not even want to look at me, actually complains when I look at her for more than a second or two. I mow the lawn while she sleeps and then she is nasty to me when I try to wake her up at the agreed-upon time to take the baby back to my parents.

Monday morning (when her period finally arrived) she apologizes for being "out-of-sorts" and having an "off" day. Her reasoning was that she was worried about being late because she might be pregnant, and then when the test was negative, she was relieved, but then when her period didn't arrive on time, she thought she might be done menstruating, hit menopause, or whatever. Is she more messed up in the head than I am at this point and just hiding it better or what? Should I believe a word that comes out of this woman's mouth?

Both last Friday and this Friday she was really nice to me when she got home, but then when bedtime rolls around, she's cold again. She also has a rash that I am applying the creme for every night, and she won't undress until later than usual on these Fridays and will not let me apply the creme. Makes me panic 'cause I know the OM works construction and sometimes has Fridays off, and I told her a few weeks ago that phone contact was just as bad as physical, and she may have decided to take me at face value and continue the PA and "explore her feelings for him". I am starting to lose my resolve 'cause she is still selfish and controlling and I think we are getting further apart while she thinks everything will "work itself out naturally". Like your (FF's) tagline reads, "I have done everything to right what I did wrong; Can you say the same?" I know I haven't done EVERYTHING to right what I did wrong, but I have tried as hard as I can and my Giver is getting tired. Am I a wimp for not being stronger?

DG, you are doing really well. You need to keep being strong. She may be in withdrawl which explain her moodiness not to mention us ladies can be up and down from PMS. Is there anyway for you to verify contact? Also, sorry but I forget if she ever sent a NC letter.

dg, read this thread by Suzet

Also, dg have you read bob pure's toolkit for bs?

Still have not verified NC.

No letter.

Thanks for support.

So "we" (meaning "I") painted the bathroom tonight. Really "we" just primered it with Killz. This was her project for when the baby was gone for these two weeks and the only thing she's done is run the roller over about 1/6 the square footage of the bathroom. And she has this hair-brained idea that the bathroom would look nice if the walls were BLACK to match the black outer trim on the yellow/black tile scheme, which I just finished removing and replacing (with my dad). It will be sorta fun explaining to her that black latex will not cover white Killz in one coat.

I have the gut feeling that something is going on, but I can't prove it. Maddening. The gut feeling could be because of my previous experiences with infidelity on my Xs's parts. Maybe it is me, but I have been changing and she won't seem to budge an inch. I think she still feels "justified" for her A because of my pathetic performance as a man in the past 10 years. She still feels all the negative stuff from me from pre-A, and now I can't seem to not act suspicious around her. I am starting to think a separation of pre-determined length would clear my head, but then won't I wonder what she's up to all the time even worse than now? I know -- what if, what if.

I have taken up solo sex again, because I have a great need for SF, which she doesn't seem to remember or realize, and I don't want to start being unfaithful. I have not brought porn into the house (remember I tossed all that stuff), but I am fantasizing about her and the way we used to be, which satisfies me at least for now about every other day. It's also maddening because she won't even really look at me right now. This is nothing compared to the two or three or more times a day that I averaged pre-A with porn. I will have an active sex life, even if it's only solo, sorta like before. I am worth that much, and I fear if I don't have an outlet for my over-sexed libido, then I will F up and bang some co-ed (I work at a small college and the school year is about to begin and I am 35 and they are 18-22, you do the math). I know an affair would not solve anything, but man, it would feel good to have somebody want me for me, and not my paycheck or insurance or house or security, just because I'm me and I'm OK and a fairly good-looking 35-yr-old man who is way over-sexed and lost 25 lbs recently and my 32-waist jeans are even too big and I feel confident that I could please a woman to no end after this drought of months and months and months and months. Someone please remind me of why I love this chick so much and why I can't seem to blow her off and take the baby from her and kick her [censored] to the curb with no vehicle (one is in my parents' name, the other is in both our names) and no place to live, except for OM who lives 1.5 hours from her job, and makes less than me. She is so cold and I know it's because I can't hide my hurt, then she asks me what's wrong, and I am afraid to tell her because she might get mad, so communication has been non-existent for a while. Am I so dependent on this woman that my self-worth is determined by her opinion of me? I am working on myself but I always seek her approval, and that turns her off too. I am trying to be self-confident, but something always throws me off. Like, for instance, she calls me Tuesday and says she can't come home for lunch that day because "Todd" is leaving the company, and they want to take everybody out to lunch at a local eatery/pub. She IMs and pages me to call her on her cell phone. Finally she calls my office number and I pick up. Tells me that "Todd" (in quotes because I never heard her mention the name before) is leaving, lunch outing, bla bla. I kinda F-ed up and asked her if that was where she was really going, calmly. Is this a LB? Anyway, I watched her go idle on IM at about 1 and return online at about 3:30. No extra mileage on the car. She even brought home leftovers that I ate that night for dinner, thinking the whole time "Is this really from where she said they were going?" I think I have Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder about this, I can't stop thinking that she's still screwing me over. I was warned at work to focus more, people have noticed I am not the same, et cetera. She has not proved NC, still being private about stuff (like the cell phone in particular). So I act like I trust her and then snoop behind her back? I hate to lie or deceive, but I guess if I expose something, then that's a step forward too. I have been swabbing her panties and I am considering buying a semen test kit online. If I know for sure then I can expose her or really kick up the plan A to compete with OM or just go to plan B?

Please post comments!

Thanks FaithfulFollower for all your kindness and "advice from the other side". I want to dedicate my life to my family, but she actually said to me the other night that she is afraid I am trying to lull her into a false sense of security and then I will blow her off. After all I've done and sacrificed so she would stay. This is getting to be unrequited love here, and my patience is wearing real thin. The only sign I have from her that I have any kind of place in her heart is that she still calls me "sweetie", or "honey", or "baby" when she talks to me, but now I'm starting to think even that is fake. Maybe she thinks everything I'm doing and changing is fake and that I will backslide into the old patterns. She is already sliding into the old patterns (headphones, "me" time, getting short with me, sitting on her [censored] barking orders, et cetera). I don't think she sees this or cares if she does. She still feels justified and I know I was hard on her, but now is supposed to be different and she is not treating it like that.

Weezer tune from the album "Maladroit" that I found extremely poignant for this situation:

THE DAMAGE IN YOUR HEART

One more time
I have crossed the line
Now you won't be mine
Anymore

One more dream
Vanished up in smoke
Now I have no hope
Anymore

Let it go
The damage in your heart
Let it go
The damage in your heart
I can't tell you how the words have made me feel
I can't tell you how the words have made me feel

One more tear
Falling down your face
Doesn't mean that much
To the world

One more loss
In a losing life
Doesn't hurt so bad
Anymore

Let it go
The damage in your heart
Let it go
The damage in your heart
I can't tell you how the words have made me feel
I can't tell you how the words have made me feel

[guitar solo]

One more tear
Falling down your face
Doesn't mean that much
To the world

Let it go
The damage in your heart
Let it go
The damage in your heart
I can't tell you how the words have made me feel
I can't tell you how the words have made me feel
I cant tell you
I cant tell you
I cant tell you
How the words have made me feel


--But now I wax philosophical and lest I digress (further) I shall sign off now.

DG

My friend FF sked me to check in on you.

You're already getting great advice so I have nothing to add except to tell you that a year ago my Squid was stealing our kid's college money to give t an unemployed serial womaizing old wastrel in a $30 motel after banging him so they could start a new life togther.

Right now she is curled in my bed after we made wonderful, intimate, aching love. She is a great mother a great wife and we love each other very much. The A effects still hurt but the A itself its taken a place in history now.

Its a hero's gig, being a BS mate, but MB can WORK!.

All blessings.