Are you kidding me? All of my boys are in GRADE SCHOOL and I can tell you they DO NOT look at porn! The only magazines my boys look at is Nickelodeon...And I know BT and TD son is in 5th grade and he does not look at Porn!

Just as alcohol CAN be a problem in a marriage if it is an addiction so can PORN...and he has admitted to the addiction before...

And it is not just "looking at pictures"...come on TA! These girls are someone's little girl doing this...someone's daughter! Would you want some strange man looking at YOUR daughter in a porn magazine and getting off on it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

I dont think BT would have the problem had it not been an addiction, but as TD has admitted himself, he did have an addiction to it and he has addressed that...however I can understand BT feelings toward it...I caught my H a few times looking at it and it really upset me! I felt betrayed by it...

These two people are trying to recover their marriage...try not to dis them for doing the right things...I think BT did the right thing in telling TD about the phone call...and I think she was honest about it...

TD and BT, just know some people will never be satified with what you share or tell them about your situation...remember it is YOU that are dealing with this...take the advice or leave it...there are some people that just are not worth even replying to...dont let these people get you down or intimidate you...I am praying for both of you!

Heh, just because someone can spout some basic truths that anyone can pick up by a single read-through of Dr. Harley's very readable books doesn't make them an expert. It just means they can read and work a keyboard.

Nor does being better than a quack (if that is true, yet to be determined) make anyone an expert; it just makes them better than a quack. TD and BT, again when you're looking for expert help, keep these kinds of questions in mind. "Better than x,y,z" doesn't mean much if x,y,z aren't any good anyway. There's a huge range of MCs out there, so this kind of point becomes important when you're trying to find the truly expert ones.

Of course, I hope it's moot and the one you're starting with is expert. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> Sadly, that's not always the case.

TD, BT,

Wow! I don't know where to even start commenting on all the 'fog' babble of BT. Sorry, BT but you are still emotionally overyourhead deep in this A.

TD, have you followed the basic Harley principles to date or are you winging it on your own?

No Contact: I don't think you should be contacting OM not to contact your W. That's her job. She should be drafting a letter to OM that establishes zero contact. Delivery of the letter is wide open. My personal favorite is that you both deliver it in person to OM with OM's wife present.

Exposure: TD, I don't feel you should be contacting OM. Contact his W if you wish. Fill her in on what you know of the affair. Tell her about this website. The more she knows the more beneficial it is to your cause.

OM's wife must know of this affair if you have any hope of ending it. Their marriage cannot ever become healthy unless the affair is exposed. What OMs wife does not know will destroy their M.

This was my favorite line:


BT, It's always helpful to point out just how easy it is to lie to your spouse. This always helps your cause. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> And then you act surprised when you are not given any 'credit' for telling a truth. Go figure. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

TD,



You will be showing that she can trust you through your actions. i.e. Plan A. You will be eliminating LBs (love busters)

You owe her no trust at this point. She can 'tell' you anything, as she has clearly pointed out. She can however earn that trust back through HER actions. A No Contact letter to the OM should be her first action. Obviously, this recent phone call proves that NO action has been taken by her in this regard.

Tired Dad,

I have just read your story today. I am very sorry for your pain. For what it's worth, i think you are truely a hero for being willing to work this all out. you should be proud of yourself for that. and you should take great pride in how much it will mean to your kids to have your family survive.

I am a FWW, I also think your W shows an incredible amount of courage and i am glad to read how much she wants to work things out too. what a great opportunity for her to be your hero too.

I know her last post said she might not continue to post at all but please ask her to consider reading this: Breaking Thread <<--- please read

i'm not always the most elequant writer (nor a good speller!!) but i would love to help her in any way.

bumping up in case you are lurking out there

Well, when everyone said that it would be a rollercoaster they were not joking.


This morning when I re-read my W’s post on D-day +1 I wondered where that women has gone. She is nowhere near that state of mind right now. Starting last Thursday/Friday I noticed a significant drop in her enthusiasm for “us” and our M. Our weekend trip with the kids was VERY stressful due to the kid’s behavior, but still, she seemed emotionally distant and very much in contrast to how she was towards me the first 4-5 days post D-day.


This past Monday OM called. She told me he called and what they discussed (for 15 minutes). She was adamant that I do not call his W, even though he told my W that he didn’t think his M was going to make it and that he still loved her (my W). Well, I wouldn’t think his M stands a chance either considering that he is STILL pursuing my W even after discovery of the A. Anyhow, against my better judgment, I promised not to call OM. She assured me that she didn’t think he would call again. Even though she admitted that she did not tell him to never contact her again.



So, my W mentioned that he said he had tried to contact her via their secret “love phone” that she gave me after I caught her in a lie on D-day +1. So I bought some minutes for it and lo and behold, there were 2 voice messages from him. The first was less than a week after D-day. He told her how he was having a hard time with this, he missed her a bunch, he loved her. He then gave her his schedule for the next several days before he left on his family vacation. The second message said “well, since you haven’t tried to contact me since my last message I guess that means one thing, you’re done. I am sorry. I love you.”

What I found curious about that was if they really decided on D-day that both were going to “save their marriages” and that their A was over (the official story given to me and OM’s wife), why didn’t he already know she was “done” when he was trying to contact her the following week? It doesn’t add up to me and I don’t think I have been told the truth.

So, I had promised not to call OM or his W after he called Monday, but now knowing that it was actually his 3rd attempt to contact my W changed everything for me. And I do think it is the right thing to let his W know that he is still telling other women that he loves her.

So I called. His W answered. I really didn’t want to discuss it with her, but she persisted and I told her. She didn’t blame me for my calling. I know my calling OM won’t stop him from contacting my W again, only she can stop that. I called on Wednesday. The second she found out I called (I told her) she got VERY angry at me and we have not been anything but argumentative since. All the reconciliation feelings, all the affection, all the remorse, it is all gone. She is seething at me because I called OM and his W.

She refuses to discuss a NC letter or phone call. She says it is not necessary at this point. At this point I feel it is a must if I am going to even try to save my M. But what good is a NC statement if it is forced and she is not doing it because she wants to do it but because I am pushing her???? It is worth nothing!
After arguing all night because I called OM, I asked her if he contacts her again will she tell me, she said “probably not”.

We went to our 1st MC session last night with a new Church based counselor. W admitted that she “feels like she loves OM”. Again, a totally different person than the one who posted on MB on D-day +1 who said she felt like such a fool, knows her relationship with OM was not real, knows she loves me, etc…

Why should I wait around to see IF she falls out of love with OM and then IF she falls in to love with me?


After MC she asked me if there were just too many obstacles for us to be able to save our marriage. I told her that there was no obstacle that would stop me from being everything I can be for her, everything she deserves out of a H, if I knew she loved me and was in love with me.

I told her that the only thing I needed was to know that she loved me and was in love with me. If our M could get to that point, I said I would be willing to do anything and everything for her. But I also said that I would not accept being the "second choice", or the "safe choice", or the "responsible choice". I either want a M with her where she is in love with me, or I want to move on. And I said I did not expect her to be able to provide that right now.


It seems to me that she has not made the decision to let go of OM and that relationship yet. I have to wonder about the sincerity of what she has been telling me since D-day (2 weeks ago today).

She tells me at times that she doesn’t like the feelings she has for OM and wants those feelings to be for me. Other times she backpedals and talks about how she was emotionally abandoned by me for years, etc…

Wednesday night when we were arguing about me calling OM, she said “my feelings of love for you were coming back, I felt them coming back. I desire for intimacy with you was coming back, I felt it coming back. But now what you have done (calling OM) has ruined that. You made those feelings disappear again.” I can’t help but feel that those statements were made more to punish me emotionally than to be honest with me.


Since I called OM she has not told me once that she loves me. Her shows of affection have dwindled to just 2 brief instances since I called OM. In the past, she always emailed me in the mornings, called frequently, even during her A. The last few days she has made a point of not contacting me by email or phone while I am at work unless it was emails specifically about household issues, etc. Not a single one about us, or asking how I am doing, or giving me any words of support or hope, etc…

I would have more optimism if my W was still the same person who wrote her initial MB thread post-discovery. But her current behavior hurts and confuses me.

Is this part of the roller coaster?

I fear she is beginning to realize that she thinks she does love OM and doesn’t want to give that up, and that she doubts that I can make her happy, that trying to save our M would be too much work for something that she doesn’t think will work anyways.
She told me last night that she doesn’t think I could ever let this go, that I would always hold it against her if we stayed married. And I think when she was saying it she was trying to convince her self of this more than to make a point to me.





And now I am having a difficult time with letting her re-connect with me emotionally right after D-day. She went out of her way to be very affectionate and loving towards me right after D-day. I had separated from her emotionally over the 8-9 weeks of her hidden A when she told me our M problems and her desires to D me were all my fault. She managed to re-connect my emotions last week. Now with her pulling away again this week, it leaves me in agony all over again. I don’t know if I should separate my emotions again, or try to ride out what “may” be a low spot on her rollercoaster or may be her changing her mind about me, our M, and OM.


All I want is an M where my W loves me and is in love with me, ABOVE ALL OTHERS. If I cannot have this in my current M, then I will have to move on for my own well-being.

And I know that even in the best circumstances, the road to recovery is a long one. But it is very depressing to think that I am only on the first mile of an long road trip and am already barely able to contain the overwhelming need to ask “Are we there yet?” .

Gosh this sucks…..

I would have simply asked her how calling OM(W) could have possibly changed her feelings towards you? It should have NOTHING to do with her feelings towards you...IF she was being honest with you about keeping OM out of her life going forward. It shouldn't have made one bit of difference to her feelings towards you...

Obviously she's not completely out of the fog yet...remember ANY contact is contact. Even a 15 minute call.

It looks to me like, no matter how much she insists the call was "closure", that it plunged her deeper back into the fog - set her right back to the start of her affair withdrawal.

I think that for her own good, she needs NC. If she is reading Surviving an Affair, which she said she bought, than she should understand the reason for this.

That call wasn't innocent, and it wasn't closure. It was dangerous to her stated desire to restore your marriage.

I think cc is dead on.

I guess I don't follow why you wanted to talk to the OM. I would understand talking to his wife and making sure she's aware of the details of what's going on, including playing his voicemails for her -- expose, expose, expose -- but I don't see how talking to the OM helps. What was the purpose of that?

TD,

I am not exactly sure where to begin. We knew something like this could happen, but hoped not, didn't we?

Her exclamations of love for OM and her lack of love for you are FOG TALK. She is confused right now. She THINKS things are better with OM. But they are not.

She's angry with you because, and listen close, YOU ROCKED THE AFFAIR BOAT. GOOD FOR YOU!

In SAA, we know the WS is "in love" with two people. She is addicted to you both. Yes, she's trying to punish you. Don't fall prey! Stick to your guns, man. Defend your marriage, tooth and nail.

Expose. Do not hide this writhing monster (affair) in the dark. As soon as the light of day is shined on it, it will shrivel up and die.

Keep working on yourself and let her spew as long as she will.

If she was committed to the affair, she'd be gone. She's not. She wants her marriage too.

NC is ABSOLUTELY necessary, and if you can't get a letter, it's time to think about Plan B. Don't wait until you're bitter. Preserve the love you have. That's what Plan B is for.

Oh, btw, I understand wanting to be the one-and-only and not the safe choice. But I don't think you're going to get that for a while. It's a good goal, but please don't expect too much too soon. She's really good and foggy. (Not really "good," I know.)

~ZP

I understand all to well, TD. However, I want to caution you against it.

I confronted the woman who wanted to be the third wheel in my marriage. I was calm, but firm in what I had to say. I asked her for explanations on her behavior around my husband, and requested accountability on things she said against my marriage. But I was polite, and did not lose my temper.

Many, MANY BS's lose their temper. If she had even thought to tell me off, I would have lost mine. Thank the Lord she was on the job, because she might have gotten a bit more in my face. Well...maybe not. She's a bit cowardly, actually.

But men...well, men are a whole nother story. OMs are cocky. It can't turn out well, unless you get him into a safe place.

If you MUST talk to him, use your head, please. Talk in a place where you can both feel safe. Lay down your terms and leave it. Please don't pursue it. Please don't threaten. That could only come to no good.

But, I would advise that you try not to do it anyway. Try to be satisfied with exposure to whomever will help your marriage, like OMW. That was a good move. I suggest letting her know about the MB materials if not the site (where you and BT could be found out--that would not be good).

~ZP