Oh please! This doesn't have to be about training..or being ladies...or gentlemen....etc. This is about knowing and honoring who you are and what works for you....period!!! It's about the other person knowing and honoring who they are and what works for them....period!! If the two happen to be compatible...great! If not....move on! This doesn't have to be some contest to prove whose "right" or "wrong" in how you choose a partner or develop a relationship. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

[Calm down, Tibolt. The comment was toung-in-cheek. I have not ego or eself-esteem problems.

Why are you so hostile suddenly? Don't answer me, but yourself. ]

Sorry, that whole training bit kinda torqued me off.
Had a couple of bad experiences when I was younger.
Also was having a rough day, my apologies for being hostile, although my opinion towards that stuff is still valid heh.
________________________________________________________
[If you became romantically involved with someone that you had dated for a term, what is she to you? A THING or OBJECT?

Seriously, you don't consider your partner or your significant other "a friend"? Why is that?]

No, not a thing or object. When I date a lady it is completely different than when I go out with a "friend". At least at first. When I am out amongst friends, we are rowdy, cussing, getting tanked, whistling at women. When I am out with a lady things are more polite, passionate, courteous. Now as time goes by those lines might blur a bit, depending on how things develope and what kind of woman she is. But nevertheless she will never be the same kind of friend to me than say, my best male friend.

No matter how "cool" or "in with the guys" the woman thinks she is, most men including me always act differently around a woman. And that is ok. I enjoy both sides of things.

So, to answer your question, no, I do not consider her my "friend". I have friends. I don't need friends. I want a lover, a wife, a lifelong companion.
___________________________________________________________
[Hmmmm. Don't the words above appear like someone trying to TRAIN others? Interesting coming from someone who is vehemently opposed to being TRAINED himself.]

No, I am not training anyone. I didn't even speak of training. What I am saying is that if you want to be treated like a lady you had better act like one. There is a big difference. After doing some research and taking experiences from my own past I gave some examples of what I consider ladylike.

I cannot tell you how many women I have dated that expect you to be the complete gentlemen but are not ladies. And to their shock and dismay they aren't treated as ladies. But there is no training involved. Either you decide to act like a lady and therefore be treated like one, or you don't.

Tibolt has a point. One thing I've learned is:
"We show others how to treat us."

This works with everyone, and lately I'm using this thought with my kids.

Thank you, HeartMending. Well said.

Wow, topic has wandered a little, hasn't it?

Well, I wanted to say, Newly, that your 1st post about this has helped.

I spent the last day or so thinking about what it is I want rather than how I was feeling about guy #2. The conclusion I've come to is that my ambivilence has nothing to do with guy #2 in and of himself, and everything to do with what I'm looking for.

I realize I would like a serious relationship, probably even to get married again eventually. Whether that will happen or not, I don't know. But if it does, I want it to be with someone who is basically the same religion, or who at least believes the same things as I. I'm VERY involved in my church, and I want someone who can share that with me. I think that was one of the problems in my 1st marriage - although he attended with me, my XH did not get very involved at all until the last few years of our marriage, and even once he did, it was doing the tech stuff, and his reason for doing it was more that he got to go back and play with the sound board and cameras instead of sitting through a sermon. He wouldn't attend church social functions with me, and really didn't like most of the other people at church all that much. Add to it that he also didn't like the people with whom I work (boring nerds, according to him), and really didn't like visiting my family with me all that much either, and it meant most of our social interaction with others was doing HIS stuff, which mostly involved a lot of hanging out around concert venues before and after the concert, frequently in the cold, with a bunch of other people going to the concert, a few of whom we were friends with. And the conversations with them frequently centered around talking about the people they DIDN'T like who went to the concerts or frequented this artist's web site.

Sorry, guess I went on a tangential vent there!

Anyway, guy #2 I've been talking to doesn't qualify in that category. Which would probably still be ok if I thought he was just looking for someone to go out with a little. But from our conversations so far, I think that he is looking for it to be a serious relationship eventually. And the last thing in the world I want to do is lead someone on.

So yes, guy #1 is safe in that respect. He doesn't want or expect anything more, and we get along great and have a good time when we go out together. And sometimes I barely have time to spend with him, let alone start dating multiple people at the same time.

There is a guy at church that's been talking to me a lot more recently. I don't really know if he's interested in me - given that these things tend to develop VERY slowly in my church, it's a possibility, though I'm not really looking for anything there unless he actually steps up and asks me out. But I can say that if he did, I wouldn't have this hesitation about going out. And it wouldn't bother me to end things with guy #1 if something developed there.

Given all that, I'm figuring I should let guy #2 know I'm not interested. The question is... how to do that nicely. The old - it's not you, it's me is, of course assumed to really mean "it's you." But in this case it would be very true that it's me and not him. So, how do I tell him that?

Which brings me back to all the reasons I hate dating! I really don't like this kind of stuff.

And this seems to be pretty much on target with HMs last reply too! I'm starting to figure out what it is I want, and realizing that I don't have to settle for less than that, that I can be happy alone too.

Oxgirl, were you married to my X? I had the exact same issues.
"He wouldn't attend church social functions with me, and really didn't like most of the other people at church all that much. Add to it that he also didn't like the people with whom I work (boring nerds, according to him), and really didn't like visiting my family with me all that much either, and it meant most of our social interaction with others was doing HIS stuff"

My BF doesn't attend church and isn't my religion, so I wouldn't bring him around my churce. I belong to a small religion and attend a startup church so I need to expand outside my religion in seeking dating partners. I didn't realize early on how much my X ridiculed my religion - even as he agreed to be married in my church and baptize our children in my religion. I would not put up with that again.

I think another reason religion has become so important is because I feel that God was watching over me through all my trauma and divorce, and I have so much good in my life and am much more thankful about it. I pray much more now than I ever did before.

We learn what is important to us. This is a process. Some people were blessed to learn early about healthy relationships, some of us are still learning, others are clueless and happy that way.

Your description in your tagline makes me wonder, I will admit. After we'd had one or two counseling sessions, I had a session with our counselor along (my XH had already had several.) The C said, "XH isn't saying much, is he? Is he always like that? He just sits there and won't say anything." I said, "Yes, that's pretty typical." I even started refusing to talk during the sessions, hoping that when our MC asked a question, if I didn't answer and the silence went on long enough, he would eventually say something. Nope. Even if our MC directed a question specifically at XH, he would barely say anything, and most times, what little he did say was unintelligible.

And one of the more surprising things about our MC - in the first individual session I had with him, he was reassuring me that if I chose divorce in this case I would not be wrong, that it would not be a sin. I know with many counselors that wouldn't be so unusual, but our MC was one of the evangelists at the church, and we do tend to believe in restoring the marriage whenever possible. We frequently have sermons against divorce. This came after the MC had had 2 individual sessions with my XH. Sometimes I REALLY wonder what went on in those sessions, because I would never have expected to hear one of our evangelists, especially this one, who I know reasonably well, to pretty much encourage me to give up, which is how it came across.

And I understand about the limited dating pool too. Even though we have a big church, there are almost no single men my age.

And like you, I really think God helped me through this whole mess a lot, and that he's the reason I came out of the divorce without losing much. Well, without losing much in the way of material posessions - I feel I lost a lot when it comes to my mental state. I come from a close, intact family. Affairs and divorce were a foreign to me - the kind of things that happened to other people.

What's that old saying..... something about "the more I get to know about men, the more grateful I am for my cat." Something like that. And I don't really feel that way most of the time - I know there are plenty of good men out there. But more and more I think I would be just aas well off to be a crazy old cat lady (though I will limit myself to the two I have - none of this 400 cats in a two-bedroom house business!) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

I thought it odd that the counselor said that to me also. After the few conversations with X about the kids, I typically revisit the following website on NPD, and recall the line "you will never feel good after having a conversation with an NPD".

http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/traits.html

And to your comment "I feel I lost a lot when it comes to my mental state. "
I feel the opposite, my mental state has improved immensely since D. I didn't know how bad it was - denial is a strong thing.
Have a great afternoon, I have a sick child to get.