Suzet is trying to tell you that if you don’t back off then the next post to us will probably be asking why she finally left you. You’re looking for a magic pill that will solve all your problems in one day and I’m going to have to tell you something that you don’t want to hear – they don’t exist. I searched for that Holy Grail and never found it.

I did the 180 about 6 weeks after D-day. I was kind of like you where I felt things weren’t making progress. The 180 program is one of the hardest things I ever did, but it was also the BEST thing I ever did. By appearing as a person who was fine that made my wife feel better about everything and gave her the chance to reflect.

Also, by choosing the 180 it gave me a chance to do things for me. I was going out with friends and doing things I haven’t done in a while. It was hard at first, but I kept it up and it did exactly what I had hoped it would do – she wanted to be with me.

I played hard to get at first. She would ask if we could go out this weekend and I would say that I already made plans with friends and we would have to do it some other time. I would stay out late and never say I love you. I even changed my cell phone number without telling her. In the end my wife become insecure and jealous and started to come around. She was doing everything she could to be with me.

Today, things are better because of the 180 plan. She had time to reflect on what she had done and realized that she made a mistake. She was the one who came running for me, but it took about four weeks before that happened.

This will require extreme patience. But then again, I hear that divorce requires even more patience and that‘s where you could be heading if you don’t back off. The classic saying applies to your situation – you can lead a horse to water but you can’t make her drink.

HLRomantic, please note I have made a few more changes on the list in my previous post.

My opinion: Don’t “forget” to call her (that is not a good idea! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), but don’t call her directly after the lunch as well (that may appear overly enthusiastic). I would say the “call her later” is the best option. It’s a balance between too clingy/needy and not interested. It’s the perfect middle ground! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

For this one I think you must sit down with your W and fill out the EN’s questionnaires with her. When you discuss the answers with each other and discuss SF, you can indicate to your W that it’s important for you that she must show interest in intimacy as well and do some initiating some of the times… Give the message loud and clear and then leave it at that and wait for your W to pursue you. I think this will give you a good indication of her willingness to take care of your EN’s as well… I mean, this is suppose to be part of recovery and commitment from her to you and the M.

Thanks LB & Suzet,

On the subject of EN’s I never got my wife to read that article and when I previously mention the letter on How to make my marriage special again? that was a different one then you commented on “Is this too harsh of letter to a reconciled WS? I never got my W to read the reconcile letter but she did read my letter on making our marriage special again. So How do I bring up the subjects of EN’s and get her to read and use them?

Thanks LB & Suzet,

I do understand they importance of what you’re telling me! But now I have another dilemma; I have just received great new regarding an employment position that my wife knows I have been perusing.

I normally would like to share the great new and go out and celebrate. Do I do that and put your plan into affect afterwards or do I pretend its not a big deal?

HLR~

I see by your more recent posts that my last post to you was way off...sorry, I didn't realize what "stage" you guys were in. I completely understand where you are now, as my own story had this stage...my first posts were about my H seeming "needy and unattractive" to me. That sounds so harsh to me now, I really hate that I ever felt that way, but it was my reality at the time. I remember telling him to "back off" and "be more masculine"...at the time, I just didn't have the vocabulary to tell him exactly what I meant, in fact, I wasn't really sure what I meant or wanted(so confused and "foggy" was I). Later, I just kept saying, just be the way you were when I first fell in love with you...he backed off a bit and that's when I came around. For a while, he was being overly affectionate and attentive to me, and I just wasn't ready. I can see now why he was doing that, and I feel so terrible about the way I treated him about it. But I needed him to be himself...that's who I fell in love with in the first place.

My H also tried the "love note" thing, and I'm ashamed to say that at the time, it just made me roll my eyes...baby steps. Something that my H has always done for me might have worked better at the time...he would sometimes buy me a scratch off lottery ticket at the gas station, and say, "I was thinking of you"...that might have worked because it would have been less "lovey dovey" to me AND it wouldn't have been so out of the ordinary...

As far as your new job opportunity is concerned, I think that you should tell her about it and see how she responds...I suppose kinda follow her lead, if you will. Congratulations to you on that, btw.

I hope that someday you and your W are in the stage of recovery where she can read some of your posts and see just how much you really love her...I wish you both the best, keep trying, what you are doing is more than admirable.

Mrs. Wondering

Mrs. Wondering your quote sent a wonderful chill down me.

Thank you!

Thanks for everyone’s help today, Fridays seem to stretch my feelings.

I spoke to my WS about my job offer and going out for dinner.
She seemed genuinely excited for me…

Why do I always feel reassured "and we have a good M" after speaking to her?

We went out for a nice Dinner; She really opened up started to tell me things like: She knows how bad she hurt me. She started to talk about single sister and another friend how they cold do what they wanted. She told me the night it happened she went to his room for more wine and was drunk but probably wanted it to happen? She said she could have asked for a D or separation but didn’t because she was in love with me. She said she doesn’t know why they happened just did, does she wish it didn’t, she gave me a two part response, she wish it didn’t so she didn’t hurt me but she doesn’t regret the rest. She told me how

The next day she really wanted me to go to a fair with her so I did, but afterwards
She suggested that I change the date to meet some friends the following week so, I asked her if that was because it was someone’s Birthday? She said Who’s? I told her I guess you don’t know? She replied who are you talking about? I told her isn’t that OM’s birth date? How would you know that, I told her I remember looking at my contact information for him today and I have many things about him that I found on the internet.

She got very upset, stating you think that’s ok to spy don’t you think personal information should be kept private? She stated to talk about how upset she was when I was able to look at their business\private cell phone records, telling me that what I did should be against the law? I told her to write her congressman. She also stated that she hasn’t thought about his birthday but since I brought it up she would probably call to wish him a happy birthday? I asked why would you want to do that? Because I feel I should. I told her to do what she wanted that telling me was helpful and hurtful; first I think it’s very important that I know and should some openness to tell me, but I would prefer she didn’t call!


She also asked why I wanted to contact his wife stating I don’t know her and it was none of her business, I told her, that I thought it was and if I didn’t know I would surly want to find out! She replied just remember that if he gets a divorce he would start calling me again and would probably come calling for me, is that what you want. I asked her does that mean you want to be with him? She replied no but it could get rather messy.

Now this morning I did something a little uncharacteristic by getting out of bed before her, showering and getting dressed. Usually we lay in bed cuddling for awhile… She got up and asked what I was doing, why did you get right up out of bed? I told her I didn’t want to wake her, wanted to take a shower read the paper and go for a bike ride. She replied what’s with all of these things your doing?

I told her your going shopping with your mother and I thought I would go for a bike ride. She replied but I don’t want to go for one. I said "good because I’m going why you are gone, if you need me just call my cell.

It’s a start on the 180 degree D-buster and I’ll see where it goes… But I would like some feed back on all of these statements she had…She has my head spinning?

HLR,

It’s been a while since we spoke, but I had to chime in when I saw this one.

“She replied just remember that if he gets a divorce he would start calling me again and would probably come calling for me, is that what you want.”

Simply put she is trying to steer you the way she wants things to go. If you tell the OMW then most likely it would mean she cannot see the OM and it would be an inconvenience to her. Based on your writings I do not see any signs of her ready to stop the A. It's still going on, Bud. It's just that she has learned better ways of hiding it from you. I would expose to OMW in a heartbeat. It may tick off your wife, but it would also mean that the OMW would know and start her process of Plan A. If you have the chance you may want to give the info about this site.

Time to quit playing the game by her rules and throw in some of your own. If your wife is serious about working on marriage then she wouldn’t be trying to guide you through this recovery. Instead, she would be helping you in every way possible so that the two of you can really patch things up.

Face it man... you need to start playing some real hardball and to take charge. The 180 is a start, but the OMW needs to know everything. At least then you'll really know if your wife is still in love with you and not playing you for a fool.

No, the A is not on! But I’m concerned how hard she is protecting him!

this is the sweetest thing!





someday i wish my husband would care enough again to want to know how much i love him.

romantic



i'm so sorry for you

i know exactly how you feel

my family actually called my marraige "my fairytale"

HLR

I don't know how much you have read on this site yet, however, it is quite common for your wife to protect the OM. She is still in the fog and in fanasyland her feelings for OM are/were real. Her believing, with all sincerity, that her feelings were real enables her to justify the risk of losing her husband and family. We all know crack is wrong, but your wife is addicted to the fantasy of romantic love -- soceity/culture has glamorized this romantic love. The pains of withdrawal will lift fog gradually and she will become less and less protective and eventually she should see the OM for the predator he is.

Additionally, we as BS often attack the OM persistently b/c it is so hard to attack our Wayward Spouse's. We still love our WS, the OM on the other hand is an easy (and well deserved) target upon whom we can direct our anger. The 180 plan and I encourage you to ignore the OM. Right now it looks like jealousy which isn't attractive. Allow her time to talk it out and make her own realizations

Aside-you can guide her slightly but without judgment.
I used one line you may like - If I had died a year
ago and you were completely single is OM somebody
you would have chose to date - eventually my WW said
NO..that's all I needed to hear)

Besides after NC he is irrelevant. Be the husband you always wanted to be and soon enough she will ripping OM for you. I've seen it happen and it's magical.

BTW, during my wifes affair she could rip me apart to OM but OM couldn't speak badly about me. She was protective of me to him. I guess it's just the way some women are. Difference is, your family, he's not..once she realizes this she'll let you rip him to kingdom come. By that time you really won't care about OM. The opposite of love is not hate, it's indifference.

Have Patience - slow and steady wins the race

Mr. Wondering

HLRomantic,

Sorry I couldn’t respond earlier, but I wasn’t around on these boards during the weekend.

It sounds if your W is still very deep in the fog and if I were you, I would snoop around and check up on her just to make sure the A is really not still going on and that there are not any personal contact other than the business contact... Your W’s comments about calling the OM on his birthday and that personal info should be kept private is HUGE red flags to me. Also the fact the she is so protective towards OM while she is so un-protective towards YOUR feelings and don’t really do the things to help YOU recover, are more reasons to feel concerned.

I don’t know, but I think even if the A and personal contact is really not still going on, there is a great chance that your W might slip back into the A or at least personal contact (like calls, e-mails etc.) that she might keep secret from you. Especially since your W is still in the fog and withdrawal AND have business contact with him, there is a greater possibility that personal contact is going on or might happen again in the near future. I would be very, very cautious if I were you and keep my eyes WIDE open. In the meantime you must try to ignore the OM and not making negative comments about him. As Mr Wondering has said, it looks like jealousy and isn’t attractive.

I think the efforts you have started to put into practice with the 180 degree is great! Continue with this and keep working on yourself. While your W is still in withdrawal, only meet the EN’s she allows you to meet (plan A) and keep it at that... I think combining Plan A with the 180 degree is the best thing you can currently do – it will also prevent you from feeling and becoming your W’s “doormat”. If your W starts to make “foggy” statements again, you can start implementing ‘reverse babble’. Don’t argue or try to ‘put sense into her head’ if she makes these statements – it won’t help and will only make matters worse. Here is Orchid’s thread on ‘reverse babble’ (just click on the link).

Also, whether the A is still ongoing or not, the OM’s W need to know – so I agree with exposure to the OMW. And you don’t need to inform your W about the exposure. Just do it. The OMW deserves to know the truth about her H so that she can make informed decisions about her life and work on her own marriage too should she choose to do so. And if your W confronts you about the exposure should she found out about it, tell her exactly that – that OMW need to know what happened so that she can make informed decisions and stand a equal chance to safe and work on her M… Tell your W that everyone deserves the truth, that it is the moral thing to do and that if YOU where in OMW shoes, you would like to know the truth either. Also, IF there is still contact going on you don’t know of, the exposure will help to end it.

So in conclusion, here is the things I think you should do.

1. Start snooping & checking up on your W to make sure the A is not still ongoing. Don’t tell your W about this and also don’t tell her about any suspicious & doubts you may have.
2. Ignore OM and don’t make negative comments about him.
3. If your W makes foggy statements or try to argue, do the Reverse Babble on her.
4. Expose to OM’s W.
5. Continue with the 180 degree and combine it with a good plan A. While still in withdrawal, only meet the EN’s your W allows you to meet.
6. Keep working on yourself and do things to improve your emotional, physical and spiritual well-being. This is also part of the 180 degree which will make you more attractive to your W and will draw her attention.

Oh, and congratulations on your job offer! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Blessings,
Suzet

HLR, I’ve just read the following on your other thread:

HLR, the phrase in bold tells me the A is still going on (at least EA from her side) and your W is definately NOT committed to NC. Especially the part ”look forward to hearing from you” is a BIG RED FLAG! With this statement, she is actually encouraging him to contact her and with this evidence you are still thinking that the A is NOT ongoing! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />

HLR, I know this is painfull for you, but it won't help to deny the truth to yourself - this will only cause you MORE pain in the end my friend! You see, it was NOT necessary for your W to enclose the personal e-mail above and if she was really committed to NC, she would ONLY sent the business info and NOTHING attached… Your W is still in an A and it’s evident that your W still wants her cake and eat it too... And I guess she hasn’t yet tell you about the latest “business contact”, has she?

HLR, it seems you have to accept the fact that this “business contact” agreement between you and your W is NOT going to work. And if your W doesn’t become willing to arrange something to cut out ALL “business contact” (I'm sure this can be done if she wants to), I can’t see how she will start to withdraw from him and how this M can ever recover…

FLR, I think the first thing you must do now is to expose to OM’s W ASAP. I’m not someone who easily advise someone to expose at work, but in your case, I think exposing to your W’s boss might be the next step if exposure to OM’s W doesn’t have the desired results... Moving to plan B might be another option for you to take… I hope the vets will advise you soon on this as I don’t have further advise.

I've also read on the other thread that your W isn’t willing to read the MB material or other related websites/books… So it seems trying to educate your W will not have the desired results as well. Anyway, untill you receive further advise, I think you must keep your cool and continue with the 180 plan as well as the other advice I’ve given you in my previous post this morning on this thread.

I’m sad things are turning out this way FLR... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

Blessings and prayers to you…
Suzet

Thanks Suzet*,

You deserve the star after you name!

My wife has told me she has had two contacts from the OM since she promised no contact and both where business. She stated that she is not going to initiate calls and the OM seems to be afraid of me right now. As for the comment about calling on his birthday, I might have forced that response, by stating that I knew it was coming up and implied she might see him. Which was an LB on my part, she hates that I have found so much information on the internet that she believes is private.

You right about snooping, but it makes me feel bad. So far everything she has told me is CORRECT, so it only makes me feel worse that I don’t start trusting her again. The other day, when I told her that I want to trust her, she looked at me with tears in her eyes and started to say I don’t lie to you.

How can you do both plan A & 180 Degree plan, aren’t there conflicts between doing both?

HLR, she doesn't lie to you? You mean she has been open and honest about her affair from the start? Just having an affair is deceitful.

As long as she is still in contact with the OM and harming your marriage, you have an obligation to snoop so you can protect yourself. She will never withdraw until the contact ends. It's a shame you were put in that position in the first place. But, she shouldn't mind it at all if it will clear her. People who have nothing to hide, don't hide.

Any interaction she has with the OM is not "private," her affair directly effects your marriage and you have a right to this information. The OMW has a right to this information. You should not trust someone who is in an affair and who is actively destroying your marriage.

I very much agree with Suzet that the affair is not over. The birthday response reveals that she is far from done with this affair. She shouldn't be led to believe that this is appropriate, HLR.

Suzet is giving you excellent advice, and I very much hope that you listen to her.

HLR, actually combining plan A and 180 is not really complex. It will just allow you to meet your W’s needs (she allows you to meet) without appearing clingy/needy/pushy. That’s all. Also, both plan A and 180 will give you a chance to work on yourself and look after your own emotional, physical and spiritual well-being. Look again at the following guidelines of the 180 list I’ve suggested to you:

1. Do not pursue, reason, chase, beg, plead or implore.
2. Not too frequent phone calls.
4. Do not follow her around the house in such a way that you appear needy/clingy.
7. Do not ask for reassurances.
11. Do not be the first one to say "I Love You" all the time – give her chance to say this as well.
13. Be cheerful, strong, outgoing and attractive.
14. Don't sit around waiting on your spouse - get busy, do things, go to church, go out with friends, etc. – enthustiatically & friendly invite her along where you can - if she denies, continue with your plans.
18. Do not be nasty, angry or even cold - just pull back and wait to see if spouse notices and, more important, realize what she will be missing.
24. Be patient.
27. Take care of yourself (exercise, sleep, laugh & focus on all the other parts of your life that are not in turmoil).
28. Be strong and confident and learn to speak softly.
29. Know that if you can do 180, your smallest
CONSISTENT actions will be noticed much more than any words you can say or write.
30. Do not be openly desperate or needy even when you are hurting more than ever and are desperate and needy.

You will see that the above guidelines actually goes along with plan A and are not in conflict with plan A. Many of these guidelines (like nr 1, 13, 27, 28, 30) are actually part of plan A as well and the aim thereof is to change yourself for the better and at the same time to make yourself more attractive to your spouse.

Don’t feel bad about snooping… You have all the right to do this after what happened. It’s for your own protection and assurance until your W has earned back your trust and shows that you can fully trust her again on long term. Trust is not earned back overnight. It’s a process – and unfortunately snooping etc. is part of this process especially while the WS is still “foggy” and in withdrawal.

My question is: Why are your W hating this so much? A FWS who are really committed to recovery, will not mind at all if the BS have FULL access to ALL private things. People who have nothing to hide, hide nothing…and won’t mind to be totally transparent about everything…

Did your W also inform you about her attached e-mail and what she said to OM e.g. ”Hope you are well and look forward to hearing from you."? There is nothing "business" about that statement... I have a feeling that she has NOT inform you about that enclosed e-mail...has she?

She told me of an email and that it was business, but nothing more. She has really conceptualized that there is a difference between business and non-business? Sometimes she understands and says “I’m sorry and understand how you feel” unfortunately, I should have kept my mouth shut and listened, but instead I said “I don’t know how you can, because up until this happened, I never would have imagined I would have felt this bad!” And that totally shut her up!

I’m hoping she read some of the documents that I have or check into your website but so far nothing.

Thanks for you help combining the two plans! How long do I do this, what are the next steps, what should I expect from my WS?

Exactly what I expected… FLR, how can’t you see that your W is NOT honest & open with you? She has enclosed a personal e-mail with the words ”Hope you are well and look forward to hearing from you” and has kept it secret from you. She's hiding the full truth from you. Can't you see that?

FLR, I assume your W is a very intelligent women (otherwise she wouldn’t be in an executive post) and obviously she knows the difference between business and non-business contact (all intelligent people do). She knows the enclosed e-mail was wrong and inappropriate and that’s the reason why she hasn’t shared it with you…because she wants her cake and eat it too. She wants BOTH you and OM...

Please listen to me FLR: Your W is not willing and/or ready to let go of the OM and that’s why you need to put the advice me and others have given to you into practise and your first step must be to EXPOSE to OM’s W. She has a right to now. Are you going to do this?

You should expect NC, total honesty & openness and commitment to recovery from your W, but unfortunately you are not getting this from your W because she is is still in contact with OM. Don’t expect any changes from your W until she becomes committed to NC and make arrangements to eliminate ALL “business contact” as well (the ways she can do this was discussed in your other thread).

You should continue with the plans as long it is necessary and as long as you can keep up with it. If your W still stays in contact with the OM after you’ve practiced a successful plan A for a certain time (it can be anything up to 6 months) your next step will be to move to plan B. I’ve already point out the other steps you need to take in my other posts.

Suzet