This should get interesting...WH has agreed to post HIS thoughts on this thread. He'll be logging on in another couple of hours or so. All I ask is that we give him fair treatment and hear what he has to say, and offer kind words or 2 x4 's as appropriate. I don't want to scare him off the site, since it's fortunate that we can use this forum to have a moderated discussion. Also, any WS's or FWS's, please please please give him your honest thoughts, since he's really struggling with his options right now. As a relative newbie, I don't know if this happens very often, having the BS and WS on the site together one day after reveal.

No, it doesn't happen very often ... and sometimes it becomes somewhat of a bigger pain. Sometimes harsh truths are posted to the WS ... to the point that the BS then feels obligated to defend their WS. Don't. Allow him the respect to defend himself. It's a skill he's going to need.

Let me share something with you, the mature wife comparing herself to the immature OW. Men who choose generally inappropriate OW to have an A with (ie; 20 year age difference, different socio-economic class, different culture, different religion, etc.) are not looking for a 'replacement wife' inasmuch as they are looking for a replacement personal identity. The lost self syndrome.

The older man 'dating' an OW 20 years younger is regressing to a woman in an earlier stage of development for a reason. To reclaim his lost self. Well guess what ? It ain't there.

In some ways, younger OW are 'easier'. They aren't as self-assured andthe MM they date are status symbols for the younger OW. Their attraction/infatuation is largly based on mutual ego-stroking and flattery.

Like cotton candy ... olderMM/younger OW affair ... it is a tasty treat, not fulfilling, comes with high caloric (energy) costs, and doesn't appeal as a long term nutritional source.

Know what I mean.

Contact should cease and desist NOW.

PS ... and if he does not end contact right away .... I would NOT do a prolonged Plan A. I would allow him to feed on cotton candy ~alone~. it will make him sick.

Very brief Plan A is my thought.

PS again .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

Do you know how superficial most 21 year old women are? High maintenence doesn't even begin to describe it.

Back home packing and about to leave for the College Football Game of the year. Didn't expect to see the above posts till tonight or tomorrow night.

Welcome Mr. Imanotherone. My wife, Mrs. Wondering and I have been reading and eventually posting here from just after D-Day ourselves. We have found it very therapuetic to discuss things in the 3rd person as conflict communication is not our strong suit. At first, Mrs. Wondering didn't like much she heard here. She thought she could do things her way. She thought there was way to much BS bitterantments (my new word for bitterness, rants and resentment). In time you'll come to understand much. The 2 x 4's you get here will be from both FWS and FBS that are genuinely only trying to smack you out of the Fog and help you rebuild your marriage. Have patience. You sound like a capable man who is usually successful at all you put your mind to, however, recovery takes time. There are no quick fixes.

Good Luck
Mr. Wondering
Go Hoosiers

Thank you Pepperband and Wondering for your words of support and wisdom. Pepper, please call me on it if you catch me being defensive of H (you're right--we are used to defending our H's, no matter how bad it gets). Right now, I'm still rolling up and down on the emotions. It's been a month since I've known about the A, yet each piece of new information about the OW/OG or about the A brings me back to square one. Seems like sometimes I get even worse than square one. H read on this site about how it might take 3 weeks for his withdrawl and to figure out where he wants to be so I think that's his time table for the NC--I'm not sure I can live with that. At least we discussed how my biggest ENs are Admiration, Conversation, and Truth/Honesty, in that order. I hope H can see how this A is causing such misery for me.

ok i've been convinced to post here ... Im Mr. 'scumbag' Iamanotherone. I really appreciate the posting and all the energy here. I'm just getting into this, so I have questions. (heres tops on my mind, more to come). It seems to me there is an underlying assumption that there is a mutual desire to rebuild the marriage and recover. I'm not even to that point yet, mostly because it just does not seem possible. Even before the A, we had very little hope, could barely stay in the same room together, disagreed on just about anything. Rebuild what? I need to read more on emotional needs, but on first read it seems that our "top 5" are completely different from each others, and almost none were being met or even acknowledged as important to the other spouse.

Well your top 5 are usually VERY different from your spouses - as men and women's needs are very different.

And you are not rebuilding what you had, that would be repairing...you are rebuilding from the ground up. Laying new floorplans, floorboards, walls and roofs <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> A patch job would just lead to leaks later. You want a strong stable foundation and structure for this new relationship.

Your old relationship has now died, and it's time for a new one to be born. But it really does take TWO people to be committed to that. Committed to all the hard work that goes into building anything - the sweat, the tears, the joy, the pain, the failures and the success - it's a long journey - but truly worth it in the end.

You would first have to go with your wife to a marriage councellor who was pro-marriage - possibly even the harley's if you can afford to - they are WORTH the money, and cheaper than a divorce would be. You will be given excersizes and activites that will help re-grow a bond that you have obviously lost with your wife and your wife has lost with you.

You can start too by reading His Needs/Her Needs and learning how "love banks" work and allowing your wife to start re-depositing units in your love bank. Over time, if you allow her too, you will feel love for her, but this takes time and continuing to let her meet those needs - even when you don't want her too, as your love bank is probably pretty empty.

This also means you need to re-fill hers too.

You guys will probably have to learn to communicate different, and understand that you both will always have different POV's, and not to fight about it - but respect the differences and learn how to POJA, meaning you learn to comprimise and come to decisions that respect BOTH your opinions and wants.

None of this is easy - but you obviosly once had a good relationship with your wife...there was something there. You can get that back - better.

If you can't fix it with her, to be honest jumping into other relationships without realizing your faults to the current one, they are also bound to fail, and one day you may find you are cheated on.

You can do it - but you have to want it. Why don't you give it a try and see what happens?

Toolman - my exWH also felt the same way. It took him a long time to realize how important I was to him. I had lost 60lbs and he did not notice until one of our friends asked him if I had cancer. That is an example of how blinded you can be in an A. This takes time and patience. You both must start spending time together 15 hrs a week. Do things with children and get out once a week with your W alone. It takes time and is hard at first. It is for everyone. I now enjoy being with my H. I avoided him for almost 2 yrs. He thought he hid his A well. But we always know when th4e change occurs and why. I was living with someone who looked like my H but was not him. It also depends on how long your A lasted.

Thanks for "hopeful/helpful" advice. Both of us seem to be working on trust issues...I don't trust H for the obvious reasons, and he doesn't trust me because he thinks I'm holding a gun to his head to make him decide. Perhaps I've thrown out a few too many LB's: H found my list of "what I'm going to do if we need to D and he stays with OW." Apparently, he thinks I'm being pretty harsh, but he needs to remember I wrote that list while he was in bed with the OW/OG. My promise: treat me with respect, and you have nothing to fear, even if we decide to get the D. Treat me with disrespect, and all bets are off. Is that too much to ask?

"Well your top 5 are usually VERY different from your spouses - as men and women's needs are very different."

Try these, could it be any worse?

Mine (and W's reply from my pOv)>
1. Physical Attractiveness (W feels vanity is despicable, hygiene is selfish)
2. Family Commitment (after job, friends, TV, eating, ...)
3. Sexual Fulfillment (W not interested)
4. Domestic Support (W considers this beneath all women and the ultimate insult to feminist values)
5. Affection (W considers showing affection to be weak and subservient)

W's (and my view)
1. Admiration (earned or not)
2. Admiration (admire me or else)
2. Conversation (lectures)
3. Recreational Companionship (must include drinking to excess)
4. Honesty and Openness (one way only)

'Rebuilding from the ground up' is an understatement. It seems as if one could pick any two random people and get a better match than this, am I missing something here?

"...meaning you learn to comprimise and come to decisions that respect BOTH your opinions and wants."

Our opinions/wants are usually so very divergent that it is impossible to come to an agreement. Usually someone has to give in and the other is disgruntled. We have become very good -- too good -- at compromising.

"...as your love bank is probably pretty empty."

Despite years of counseling and Psychiatry our sad situation has gone on for nearly 4 years. The Bank has long been CLOSED. The anger and hurt that has grown and then festered over this very long time seems insurmountable. In contrast, the A has gone on for less than a month.

WH Toolman is being very defensive and hostile. I think I have already demonstrated in the past month or so that I realize I've made many mistakes in the M. I've also readjusted my interpretation of physical attractiveness as a result of many posts here, and a general change in my attitude. (I'm getting fit and looking nice to make ME feel better about myself. Hey, I'm about to spend 3 hours at the beauty salon this morning!)
Toolman is also very off-base with his assumption that I am not interested in SF. He could not be more wrong. I am absolutely STARVED for SF--I have dreams about SF almost every night, but wake up to a reality where I know my H has not had an erotic feeling for me since my first pregnancy started to show, almost 9 years ago. Same goes for affection.
The reason family commitment and domestic support fall further down my list is not because I hate my family...it's because it gets me absolutely no "Admiration (my highest EN) from H. If H were to respect such activities, and openly praise me, I'd pursue it harder. In fact, lately, H has "admired" women who have NO family commitment or domestic support, and has even chosen for his OW a girl who is YEARS away from any kind of commitment or domestic support role. How am I to interpret that?
Furthermore, I have chosen to rededicate myself to my family and children anyway, because it is the right thing for the children. Sure it won't fill the M love bank, but the love from my kids is even better in some ways.
I'll address H's take on my EN's in a future post.
H seems to think a closed love bank means he can bang a 21 year old and it's justified. He needs to understand his betrayal is on another order of magnitude than any neglect he has suffered in the M.

I'm & Toolman,

I am gonna venture out here and say U both have concerns, questions and opinions regarding the A process, recovery, withdrawal, your M and about each other....right?

Like most here, you both are pretty much right on track as to where your emotions, thoughts and actions are right now. That does not mean it's ok. It means your positive and negative feelings, thoughts and actions are normal.

Now you both have to heal yourselves first, then help each other, then help your family, then your M. In that order. See where your M is? It is 4th. Hm.....

Your individual recovery/healing is within your individual control, Your healing as a couple will require you put the needs of the other ahead of our own, in a reasonable way.

The tricky part is how to do with all at the same time. Now this is where MB can help. This stuff takes practice. Here are some coping suggestions:

1. Looks like you both took the EN questionnaire. Good.

2. Read Surviving an Affair and His Needs/Her Needs, together. If you can't. Read it separately, but read it.

3. Work up a schedule to spend at least 15 hours of couple time a week. That does not include 'sleeping time'. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

4. Call Steve H for some phone counseling. The rate seem high. You could see if your medical plans cover counseling but it certainly is worth the IC/MC investment.

5. Work together as a couple/family as much as possible. Even helping others....do it together. Do not form individual R's w/o the others knowledge. NO matter how safe it seems.

6. U both can keep posting here but respect each other's posts and threads.

7. Please read my threads about the 5 stages of grieving and Trueheart's letter to the WS'. It may help.

8. Make sure your expectations are fair and reasonable.

9. Each of you, pray for a clear mind, a calm heart and lot so patience.

Remember, this stuff takes time. Now how long but how well you heal will make the difference. In general the recovery times could takes months or years, depending on each of your individual and couple efforts. Just because you know what you s/b doing, doesn't mean you are or w/b doing it.

That choice is yours. While you can't control the other spouse, you can control you and need to have your indivudal 'reasonable' boundaries.

take care,
L.

Ironic that W's very first admission of mistakes coincides exactly with start of A. Up until the A, it was: take it or leave it ... this is the way I am ... my way or the highway, FU.

9 years? Really? We have a 4 year old too, and I'm 99.99% sure he's mine.

W's clues on my feelings about Family Commitment and Domestic Support are misinterpreted. Yes, there is one woman who is also a triathlete, who I admire how seriously she trains - however, imo she is a poor 'mom' and I don't find her attractive. I did not "choose" the OW.

W is not really interested in admiration from H (she often tells - and shows - me "I don't give a f^#k what you think"). She is interested in the kind of admiration that comes from the business world, from being a successful and respected woman executive, from having power, from being gregarious at happy hour. In that world, being a mom is looked down on and domestic support is something the lowly maid does.

As huge of a blunder as it was, the A does not erase all the good effort I have put into our family and all of W's mistakes.

Orchid, thanks very much for the practical words of encouragement.

"Now you both have to heal yourselves first, then help each other, then help your family, then your M"

Toolman,

Please read the book His Needs/Her Needs ASAP. U both need to learn how to communicate with each other. Men and women have different communication needs. Very different. Knowing this will your M recovery a lot.

Then there is the individual characteristics/personalities and attitudes. It becomes easier to make wrong assumptions about our mates and easier to justify wrong actions as a result.

In our family, I am the person who takes charge to get things done. I had to. H was and is a conflict avoider. His lack of commitment to our family is what fueled his A. Yet what he accused me of doing 'controlling our family' was in reality my doing what I needed to do to keep our family afloat. He admits even now that his babble were excuses to justify the A. He realizes now how much he had to lie even to himself to justify the A. Even pre-A, there was a lot of reinvented history as the pre-A disease was taking root.

Get focused on the real issues and don't get fogged into pointing fingers. I often tell people, 'when you point your finger at someone, remember there are 3 other fingers pointing back at you. This means you c/b 3 times more liable than the one you are pointing at.'

L.

While I can understand that WH feels less than enthusiastic about working on the M, I need to argue that as bad as things were, we were still working towards some common goals (great kids, successful business, remodel house, etc.). THEN HE WENT AND STARTED SLEEPING WITH A 21 YEAR OLD. There were hundreds of hours of communication between WH and OG, and I'd argue that if all that time was spent on the M instead of the OG, that BS (me) would have at least heard a few minutes of it. Now, we are much further behind than we were 2 months ago. WH STILL has not committed to NC, although he claims there has been NC thus far. No letter of NC or even verbal commitment has occured. No disclosure. We had a bad marriage, but this has made it WORSE. I would argue that if WH respected BS at all, he would have asked for D or at least separation before shaming all of us with this A.
Sorry for my hostility, but I feel that WH is trying to deflect from his very major role in this problem, blaming it all on BS. Maybe fog talk, but maybe not.
BTW, my EN's are not what WH posted--that's just his sarcastic take on the whole thing.
FWS and BS's, please help me get on the right track here. If I'm forced to defend the past 10 years of my marriage before WH gets serious about the M, this process is going to take a long time.

Ima1,

This is gonna take a long time. His actions have become a crutch for him to escape from his family responsibilities which includes spending quality time with U as his W.

There is no 'instant fix'. Reovery is a harder road to travel. There w/b slip ups and even false recoveries. The work for a BS t/d is more up front with plan A. Once your personal improvements have been made and you have covered your reading material, worked through a good MC with a plan, id'd and implemented your personal boundaries, then you leave most of the recovery work up to the Xws who also has t/d the same plus help you recover.

So Iamanotherone, where are you with your personal recovery?

L.

Hi Orchid, thanks for the feedback. Good question about personal recovery. I "think" I'm doing pretty well: I've been working out, spending more quality time with the kids, spending time working on myself (got my hair done, made appointments at the dentist and nail salon). Trying to keep my self esteem high by staying in contact with friends and family. I've been avoiding alcohol and any other self-destructive habits.
H and I went to the MC today, spent about 2 hours there going back and forth. MC asked us what reasons we had for wanting to stay married, and we both offered some pretty good answers, I think. Still, H has not fully decided that he DOES want to commit to working on the M, and that hurts. Hopefully with time, he will become more positive. After the MC, we spent about 2 hours together, and really didn't get into any fights, and no big LBs out there. We will probably schedule an appointment with the Harleys, too. I'm going to pick up some of the literature tomorrow at the bookstore, and hopefully we can read through it together.
Can you help me understand how a "false recovery" works, and how to recognize it? Also, any advice on furthering my own personal recovery would be great! Thanks, everyone. I really get a lot from reading posts on this thread and on other folks' threads.