Oh wow, lots to respond to, and I'm at work so have to be quick:

Faith,

I agree with you that I don't know this guy yet (although I know a lot more about him than I did just a month ago). He has illuded to the "L" word in a round-about way, but hasn't mentioned it either. I'll try and clam up for a while still.

As for how long it takes, I'm hoping I don't have to be with some guy for 2-3 years before we figure out if we're serious. You know the thing about my not believing it's right to have SF before marriage. Two years in a close relationship without that is a little unrealistic!

And I'm not expecting perfection from anyone. I don't want the train wreck, but I'm not one who believes much in "happily after after" either (not that I wouldn't accept it if it happened--just that I'm realistic). That's where commitment comes in. I want someone who, even in the bad times, will stick it out with me.

CheckUrHeart,

I really don't see all the wrong things that you see. There is nothing at all that would make me run away from this one at this point. With the other guys I dated, there were just little things from the start that told me I didn't desire a future with them. I haven't seen those yet with this guy--that's the red flags I'm referring to, not that he's totally perfect in every sense of the word. It just feels "right" at the moment.

As for including me with the child activities, first his children are older (12, 15 and 19) and second, I am one of the few since his divorce who has interacted with his kids. He has been divorced for 5 years and didn't start dating until 18 months after it was final. He's been in one 5-month relationship (she may have met the kids), one 2-year relationship (the one he thought he was going to marry, and she did meet the kids quite often) and other than that I think one other person met the kids because he and his kids went to a concert and the set up a meeting there. I think they were fine with meeting me. My kids have met him briefly as well. Again, the kids are older--it's a little different than meeting a 5-yr-old.

Second, your quote:



My point that I made more gets back to my belief which he shares and we have discussed in depth, that in a Christian relationship, men and women have distinctly different (but equally important) roles and one of the man's roles is spiritual leader (just as one of the woman's roles is to affirm her husband). Whether anyone else believes the same way is irrelevant. We are very much in agreement.

Cherished,

I was married to an abusive man. I know the traits. This guy is as far away from controlling and abusive as anyone I think I've met in a long time. In fact, if I were to pick a trait of his that I see that is not necessarily a good one, it's that I think he has some of the same boundary issues that I do. He is genuinely very nice and because of that, I think he could tend to let himself get taken advantage of in a relationship just to keep the peace and make it work. I see that in some of the things he's told me about his 2-year relationship. He is somewhat embarassed by some of the things he put up with, yet I understand them (not saying it was smart to put up with them) because I've done similar things in my own marriage. So from that perspective, I think that's why we're both asking so many questions and watching each other's actions so closely.

LH,

I don't disagree with anything you say about my being a little starved when it comes to a normal relationship and how anything looks good. So yes, the fact that he's showering me with attention is fabulous for a person who hasn't had someone want to cuddle with them in about 20 years and probably takes something that is just really common and normal and makes it feel like heaven to me.

However, I do feel like I'm ready to be in a relationship. I started feeling that when I was dating the other guys on a more casual basis. I just wasn't comfortable with that approach. It felt weird to me. It's not who I am. And I don't want to date a bunch of men and compare them. If I find something I'm happy with, I'd like to give it a shot and see what happens.

So, right or wrong, I didn't wait the prescribed one-year-for-every-four of married life (because that would have been 5 years). I jumped in less than a year after my DV. Maybe not smart. But I have no intentions of not seeing this one through to the end, whatever that may be.

John,

Like I conceded to LH, what is maybe a small "crumb" (although I'd have to admit it's been the majority of the loaf of bread lately) does feel like a feast to me. And I recognize that I am in the beginning stages of a relationship--that warm, fuzzy, "butterflies in the stomach" period so I see things differently.

I am trying to be careful, trying to observe and ask the questions, and see what happens. But yes, I'd be lying if I said I hadn't "what-if'd" my future with him just a little, and wondered what he might be like to be with still in say 5 or 10 years. maybe crazy...

LL

Lordslady - I wish you all the happiness..... Just follow your heart but listen to your brain.... go with the flow and be happy.... you are dating not marrying the first man that comes along - though anything is possible.... try to enjoy and not analyze so much...:)

LL, I will not presume to question your Christian sensibilities in regard to this, but leave that to your interpretation of faith. I personally don't believe that Christ ever meant this the way that so many people interpret it, but that's my belief. I know that I would never put someone else in the driver's seat of my spirituality, since this part of me is something that I may share with my spouse, but ultimately it is really only between God and me.

The reason that this scares me is because I have a friend who made the exact same argument about a new man in her life several years ago. She was a devote Christian and wanted only a Christian husband. They had very much the same ideas about the man being the spiritual leader of the relationship. The problem was that this man was not the devout Christian he claimed to be and she didn't find this out until it was too late. Well, this man didn't want to just be her spiritual leader, but her lord and master and was incredibly abusive.

I think I'm uncomfortable that you aren't seeing all the red flags (or potential red flags) that others here have pointed out. It's almost as if you've already made up your mind and have come back to counter every warning that others have given you. Maybe we are all wrong. After all we aren't there and we can't see for ourselves. But you've only known one another for a very, very short period of time. I'm sorry, but you nor anyone else will ever convince me that love, the real and lasting kind, can ever happen this quickly, especially with people our age, who've been there already.

I am encouraged though that you are asking questions. I also appreciate that you are "seeing this one through to the end." I like it when people are willing to play the whole game. I just hope you don't get very hurt at what is a very vulnerable time for you. Just keep on asking those questions with your head out of the clouds and your feet firmly planted on the ground and you'll be alright. You may want to do yourself a favor and consider your feelings very carefully for another month before uttering the L-word again. Give yourself time. If he's for real, he's not going anywhere.

OK, I want to clarify that I did not say that LL should dump the guy. I only said that she should slow down.

Having said that, I am of the belief that a relationship that starts out wrong becomes destined for failure. Put another way, you can't start seeing someone when one of you is not emotionally ready, and slowly "grow into" being ready over time. More than likely, once you start off with a needy or unhealed partner, you choose a course, and it is hard to do mid-course correction.

Put yet another way, I believe that it takes two things to form a solid start - it's choosing the right person at the right time. If the timing is wrong, then no matter how right the person would have been otherwise, it makes it wrong.

What usually happens is that when people realize that they are not ready, they try to take a breather or slow down, but then the other person feels hurt.

Anyway, let me look at some of the red flags I see in LL's situation:


And when you met him, you were up to your ears in worries about being pregnant and having STDs, remember? That does not sound like an emotionally healthy state for you. The fact that he supported you during that time just makes it more of a codependent start to your relationship, IMO, as you needed some emotional support and he was there to provide it.


Then you probably shouldn't be flirting with saying those words to anyone.


None of this is sustainable, and I think it tells me that you are infatuated with an image that you painted of him, rather than what he really is. And given that, you are more apt to process everything you see in such a way that adds to your preconceived image of him, and ignores things that don't mesh with that. That is the classic sign of an infatuation.


Same as above - not sustainable and not realistic. You should see that you are addicted to the attention you are getting, but it doesn't tell you much about the real person. What's worse, I suspect that he is not particularly emotionally healthy, which makes the two of you rely on each other as a crutch - which makes it feel much more intense and passionate, but in an unhealthy codependent kind of way.


BTDT... discussing heavy and deep things early on feels very good and intense - but again, it is putting the cart ahead of the horse. Words mean nothing, and trying to "talk" through everything right upfront means very little. You need to EXPERIENCE dating him, not TALK it through. I read your discussion about how easily he accepted your former WS status - I will suggest that you read more into it than is really there. Just because he said "sure, no problem honey, I don't care what you were, only what you are", I bet that a little red flag went off in his head (given that he was a BS), and while he may have said what he said, he did not forget what you told him. Which is fine - dating is all about experiencing things, not talking them through. So be careful about assuming that things that were mentioned are now fully put to bed. They are pieces in a jigsaw puzzle, and you need to put the whole puzzle together and not look at individual pieces before deciding if someone is right for you. My guess is that your WS status is in his mind somewhere, and not "put to rest" as you assume. I could be wrong, but I suspect not.


They are there, you just can't see them because you are crazy about him. I see red flags all over the place, as I will continue explaining.


OK, so this confirms my suspicion that he is also infatuated and probably emotionally not ready for a healthy relationship. Both of you being in that state is really dangerous.


Hmm, this is bizarre. So you are saying that you will wait on SF until marriage (your choice, no argument from me), but because you are eager for SF, you don't want to wait too long before marriage????? [color:"red"] LL, that in itself is a red flag big enough to sail a ship [/color]. Listen to yourself - you are rationalizing acting on your infatuated feelings (and possibly getting married earlier than you should) instead of truly getting to know someone slowly, based on some "I won't have SF before marriage" excuse (even though you had SF with a guy just recently whom you hardly knew). This rationalization really concerns me, and it should concern you too.


You guys should not be playing house at this point, not with your and his kids. It is unhealthy, and the fact that you are doing this tells me that you really think that he is "the one", which in itself is another huge red flag.


So how long has it been since his last (2 yr) relationship ended? Am I wrong in suspecting that it was very recently?

LL, I could write more, and I know that you can debate every point I make, which is not my intent. I just want to tell you, as president of the "Been there done that" club, that you are walking a well known path, and it usually ends up being "walking the plank" if you don't slow down and look around you.

You need to be able to see red flags, and I don't think that you can them at this point. That worries me.

AGG

Cherished, I missed one thing I was going to respond to:



While the loss of child support would be a definite financial hardship and would make it very difficult to have much of a social life, much less drive a distance to see someone regularly, I can pinch pennies and live on what I make. I don't need to rely on a man for my basic living expenses. So that wasn't the issue. The issue is just that I didn't want him resenting me if he had to make the most effort. He and I had a nice talk and he explained that it is not an issue who has to drive where, and he doesn't want to feel like we have to worry about splitting everything 50/50. He said the most important thing to him is that we get to spend time together, and what it takes for that to happen is not something he's going to get hung up over.

GNP,

You must have responded while I was typing. Missed yours the first time. And yes, I do understand the concerns people have about how fast I'm moving on this one. And I realize I don't know him at all right now like I will in a few months. So I am trying to keep my eyes open.

But I do appreciate that someone actually "gets it" about the man accepting responsibility, however reluctantly, to be as you put it "the moral guard" and how that doesn't translate into anything controlling or wrong, but it's actually an admirable thing. We are human, and I know it is going to be difficult for both of us as time goes by. But right now, we've done okay. One day at a time.

Maw,

Yes, you're right--I'm dating, not marrying. We've talked future, but no one has mentioned the "M" word or anything crazy like that at this point.

However, I'm not one would would refuse to marry him at some point just because he was my first serious relationship after my DV, if at some point things progressed that far.

CheckUrHeart,


That'd be more my ex's personality. His theory and his frequent statement. "I'm the man. It's my way or the highway." (Eventually, I chose the highway.)

Again, being the spiritual leader doesn't make him my master. We are equals in God's eyes. But our roles are different as a man vs. a woman.

LL

There appears to be a difference in usage here, and I suspect that my understanding of the term "red flag" may not be as standard as I thought. I use the term to refer to as a "Stop! Do not proceed!" type of indicator - a reasonably clear indicator that something may be seriously awry. What you have described, AGG, are a lot of reasons to be cautious, but your reasons are based on generalized wisdom (which is by no means a bad thing!) and a fair amount of sensible speculation rather than what has been specifically revealed about the situation.

My own generalized wisdom says that slow and cautious is by far the best approach to take here. But "cautious" doesn't have to be "paranoid." As long as one doesn't compromise one's integrity, taking a risk can be quite healthy. It's better to get hurt than to build walls and hide away.

AGG,

Yes, you are correct, the first night we actually met in person I was just coming out of the whole mess with the other guy and was fairly convinced I was pregnant. We had been corresponding via email for a week or so prior to that meeting. It wasn't the best foot to start things on, but it did force honesty immediately which hasn't been a bad thing.

Yes, I know the email novels and the marathon calls aren't sustainable over the long term, but what's wrong with enjoying them now? Why cut them off just because they won't last? Why not enjoy the initial thrill a little before it settles down into a more traditional, comfortable thing?

As for his emotional state, I think his own self-esteem has taken a pretty serious hit a couple times during the last 5 years. And yes, the last hit was when he ended his long-term relationship. It ended around this time or maybe just a little bit later last summer, so he's not been in anything that lasted more than a couple three dates since then, until we met.

And yes, there are guys who do better out of relationships than others, and I can tell from what I know so far that he is a guy who really wants to be IN one. He also married very early in life--he was 20 and his wife was 18, and they had their first child within 6 months of when they married, so we've been in relationships and had children pretty much all our adult lives. And he, like me, didn't socialize a lot with others while being young and married, because most people his age weren't married with kids.

We may see things a little differently than someone who didn't marry until later, or who dated for a good portion of their 20's, and who waited longer to have kids. No right or wrong here, just a different view on things.

As for my WS status, I don't deny that it's probably still floating in his mind and he's watching my actions to see if they match my words. And that's a good thing. I told him if he choses to ask more questions, I will answer them. He hasn't asked more questions, but I know he's looked for comparisons between me and his ex or his long-term girlfriend, to make sure I'm not going to repeat the pattern and him get burned again, and he's expressed a few things lately about how I am nothing like either of them and that I've put a lot of his fears to rest already.

As for the SF thing, I am not proud of what I did with the other guy. It was dumb, and wrong. I can't say with 100% certainty that I'll make it through 'til marriage with this guy or anyone else. I've never been in a relationship situation of a serious nature before where sex wasn't a part of it. But it's my belief that it's what God wants for me, and it will be my goal.

No, I won't marry someone quickly just so I can have SF. I'm not that desparate. But on the other hand, dating someone for 2 years to just get to know them well and expecting it to remain on the up-and-up is sort of it's own prescription for disaster.

Playing house: Yes, it's not the best idea in the world (see the SF comment above--sort of risky if no one is around but us), but because of the distance (100+ miles one way) and the ridiculous price of gas, and the fact that I'm taking him to the State Fair on Saturday so we need to get an early start, and then he offered to go to church with me on Sunday which I'd love for him to do, the plan is that he stays as my guest.

And I'm not dumb enough to think that if it happens once, it won't happen again.

But again, my kids are older. One of them will be back in college by this weekend. The other one has so many issues of her own that what she'll see from us is going to look mighty stable by comparison (hey, at least we won't be offering her booze or drugs like her dad does if she sees him).

Do I think he's "the one"? I don't know. What if he is? would that be wrong, just because it's so soon after my marriage ended? And yes, I am afraid of being hurt. But I'm not so afraid that I won't open up and give it a chance. Unlike a lot of people who seem to stay so bitter and so "closed" after they go through an ugly DV, I choose not to feel that way. So yes, I may end up as one of the "BTDT" people, but I'm taking that chance.

GNP,

I agree--I need to be cautious, and that doesn't always come easy for me when it comes to relationships.

But I won't be paranoid. I don't believe one can have a healthy relationship and not open up and risk getting hurt.

LL

GDP,

Yes, you are correct, I use the term "red flags" as a big caution sign, not as a "Stop!!". I have not seen too many things about LL's situation that I would call showstoppers, but I have seen plenty of things that (IMO) she should be noticing, and she is not. That concerns me.

Let me propose another thought. It is possible, QUITE possible, to take a perfectly good match between two people, and then to totally screw it up. Agreed? And I am afraid that what LL an Mr. Awesome are doing is exactly that - they are on their way to screwing it up, because they have already discussed the "future", and in their own minds have cleared most of the tough issues, and so now it's just a matter of dotting the i's and crossing the t's. I know I am exaggerating, but not by much. LL would be MUCH better off slowing down, stop assuming that he is "the one", stop thinking that they are in love and that she has never met anyone like him, and simply enjoying some time with him. And getting to know him. Slowly.

I am firmly convinced that the path she is on will lead to big heartache on someone's part, because they are making all the classic mistakes of someone who is head over heels. And that is exactly when unrealistic expectations arise, wrong promises are made, and bad things happen.

AGG

LL,

You know that I am not telling you to dump the guy, right? I am just telling you to slow down.

Like I said, I have been exactly where you are, and it did end up being a train wreck. I could have written every single word about my then-GF that you wrote on this thread about your BF.

What concerns me, is that you are thinking that you are being objective, but you are not, and it is quite evident to those of us in the BTDT club. So we are trying to share with you some of our (sometimes painful) experiences. Not telling you to dump him, but to slow down.

Let me float something for you, and see how you react. Do you realize that almost every word you said on this thread about your BF is verbatim what WS's say about OP's in the midst of an affair? "I can't stop thinking about him", "I have never felt this way about anyone", "we see eye to eye on everything", "the feelings can't be denied"? Sound a bit familiar?

Why do you think that is? It's not that OP's are really water walkers, it's usually that they are at the right place at the right time, perfectly able to meet the WS's neglected EN's, right?. To a starving person, a crumb looks like a meal.

Yet we all know that in 99% of the cases, the OP and WS are not really soulmates and are not usually compatible - they simply give each other whatever the other person was missing, but that is not an adequate foundation for a relationship.

What I am proposing is that your feelings are similar to that situation. I don't mean anything bad by this comparison, you understand, I just want to illustrate that strong feelings and a clear head are often mutually exclusive. If you have one, you may not have the other. You tell us you have strong feelings for a guy you just met, so I am telling that you that you are unlikely to have a clear head at this moment. In a way, you are fogged in <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />.


You see, you are rationalizing that a bad thing is actually good, and I think you are fooling yourself. No, thinking that you are pregnant and being an emotional mess (I remember your posts back then) is NOT a good thing when meeting your new guy. You can't twist it into saying that it's not so bad because it forced you to be honest - what it did was create drama, which feels like passion, but is not at all healthy. Meeting someone when emotionally traumatized undermines the relationship.



I'm not saying to cut off the phone calls. I am saying that you should at least realize and admit to yourself that they cloud your judgement. On the one hand you are saying that you are enjoying the moment because it feels good, but that you know that you need more time. On the other hand you are picking out the wedding dress. That is the inconsistency that really worries me. Look at your words:


He can't compare you to his ex or long term girlfriend, because he hasn't known you nearly long enough to make those comparisons. I bet that he was still quite fond of his ex and his GF at their respective three week marks, so the comparison is silly. And to make the conclusion that you put his fears to rest is premature - you are fighting yesterday's war (comparing yourself to ex's), and that is the classic sign of someone who is not ready for a relationship. There should be no comparisons to ex's, there should be just you and him.


OK, so if you won't have sex before marriage but won't wait 2 years "just to get to know someone", how long will you wait before marriage? Do you realize that most advice on the topic does suggest about two years of dating? Why are you so eager to throw that wisdom out the window? Because you feel that you found your soulmate, so why wait that long, right?



What if he is not? WHY on earth are you even thinking about that right now?


LL, that again is a classic line of someone in the fog - "the feelings can't be denied and I have only one life to live so I won't let it pass me by". WHY do yo feel that if don't jump in 100% that you will let life pass you by? If this guy is for real and your relationship is meant to be, it will happen, even if you slow down.

Despite all your statements that you want to see where things go, you keep contradicting that by saying that (essentially) you both are in love with each other, you have not met anyone like him before (and vice versa), and you refuse to lose him because of some silly "rules". I understand. Like I said, BTDT.

I don't want to keep hounding you, LL, I think I have spoken my mind. I don't expect you to suddenly say to yourself "OMG, AGG is right, Mr. Awesome is not my soulmate!" - I just hope that you will tuck my words somewhere deep in the back of your head, so that the first time he says or does something that makes you go "Yikes!" (and he will, trust me), that you will say to yourself "Ah, let me go back and reread what AGG said".. Deal? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />.

AGG

LL- I was so delighted to read your post!!!! Is this the same LL that thought she would never meet anyone? That thought she would live the rest of her miserable life alone and without hope?

LL,

I agree with Check about the kids. Your last comment worries me.

"But again, my kids are older. One of them will be back in college by this weekend. The other one has so many issues of her own that what she'll see from us is going to look mighty stable by comparison (hey, at least we won't be offering her booze or drugs like her dad does if she sees him)."

If your daughter already have issues to deal with, why expose her to possibly having to deal with another issue?

Here is my thoughts, if I was dating such a wonderful guy, and think that this guy is a sure thing, I would not have any problem waiting to introduce the kids to him. There would be no rush.

I don't like the idea of having kids get attached to SO and then if the relationship ends, they would have to deal with another break up.

In talking with step parents, they all have told me, older kids have a much harder time accepting SO.

Just my two cents.

Bingo - that is what worries me. Oscillating so quickly from "no one will ever want me" to "I met Mr. Wonderful" is setting LL up for a very hard letdown if things don't work out.. That is huge pressure to put on a budding relationship.

I just want LL to slow down a bit, so that when (not if) that first "Oh sh*t" moment occurs with Mr. Wonderful that it won't hit her like a ton of bricks.

AGG

I concur. What was it - 2 weeks ago?

Take a deep breath and sloooooooowwwwww dooowwwwwwnnnn.

Don't stop. Just walk - don't sprint. You'll get to the same end you are headed for either way. If it's a brick wall, running into it will hurt much more than walking. If it's not, getting there a little bit later isn't a bad thing, and can help you appreciate reaching the goal even more.

One of the things I noticed about myself and the way I feel about the guy I'm interested in right now is that it is definitely different than it has been with some of the other guys I've been interested in... I have tended to develop strong attractions and interpret them as "love" very early on in my relationships with guys. With this guy it is different. The feelings are the same. I think about him a lot. I enjoy every opportunity I get to be in his company. We share tons of things in common. And I think "I like him. I really like him a lot." With other guys, by this time I'd been thinking I was in love... And I thought about that tonight and realized that maybe I've finally "grown up" in that respect. About time at 45 years old, huh?

Think about it LL. I think it sounds like this could be a great relationship for both of you. And it is very common, I think for women, even adult women, to wonder if a guy we really really like is "the one", so I wouldn't worry about that. But if you catch yourself writing your name with his last name ... stop. Don't go there - that's teenager stuff and will get you nothing but hurt. Too much obsession about whether or not he's the one or whether or not you are really in love with him will wind up sabotaging the entire thing. Just accept that you and he get along very well, that you have similar belief systems and that you are having a good time being with him. Don't force it by convincing yourself that this is the guy you are going to marry.

Just let it Be. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

CS

((((LL))))

I’m with AGG on this one in that I just hope you have the ability to take things slow and put everything in the correct perspective. I do know that in a new relationship, perspectives can be skewed especially when we enter into them hungry. And truly, I hope you don’t think we’re beating up on you, actually, I think the Band of Big Brothers out here is only trying to look out for one of own. That we have post divorce experiences that lend to the situation probably adds to our skepticism.

“””Why not enjoy the initial thrill a little before it settles down into a more traditional, comfortable thing?”””

As long as you realize what they are, there is nothing wrong with that. Now if you don’t realize what they are and you end up in the sack and broken-hearted then there is something wrong with it because you should have known.

”””I can tell from what I know so far that he is a guy who really wants to be IN one.”””

I’m curious, what do you mean with this statement?

“””I can't say with 100% certainty that I'll make it through 'til marriage with this guy or anyone else.”””

I find this interesting because I’m willing to bet that I can find at least 50 posts where you did say with 100% certainty that you would wait till marriage. As a matter of fact it was a value that you seemed to cherish. So why, after a couple of weeks, are you already thinking of going against your own core values?

“””Playing house: Yes, it's not the best idea in the world (see the SF comment above--sort of risky if no one is around but us)”””

So are you already planning on breaking your value’s here before he comes over? If he seduces you, pushes your boundaries, are you saying that you’d give in?

“””but because of the distance (100+ miles one way) and the ridiculous price of gas, and the fact that I'm taking him to the State Fair on Saturday so we need to get an early start”””

OK, sorry, my BullCrap meter just went through the roof. First off, he’d be driving that 100 miles no matter what. Second off, that should only cost about $10 one-way and if y’all can’t afford then you’ve got bigger problems. Third, that’s only about 1.5 hours each way, so if you wanted to get started at 8am he’d have to leave by 6:30am, doesn’t sound ridiculous to me. What does sound questionable is some of the rationalizations and justifications that are already being thrown around.

“””But again, my kids are older. One of them will be back in college by this weekend. The other one has so many issues of her own that what she'll see from us is going to look mighty stable by comparison (hey, at least we won't be offering her booze or drugs like her dad does if she sees him).”””

LL, I’m not going to touch this but have to say it’s one of the saddest statements I’ve ever seen you post.

Again, LL, I and I’m sure others truly wish you all the best, please know that.

Hugs, Thoughts, & Prayers

Definitely. In fact, I would go so far as to say I suspect that a "perfectly good match" can be torpedoed just by timing and/or circumstances, without either party having done anything inappropriate to "screw it up" themselves.

While I agree with the advice to slow down, I do not agree that it was inappropriate to discuss the possible "future" and determining whether the roadblocks could be cleared. For one thing, if it can be determined from the outset that the roadblocks are insuperable, then it is best for everyone concerned if the relationship is not allowed to develop in a direction that can only lead to heartbreak. Besides that though, there is simply no way that I personally could ever stop myself from evaluating possibilities and roadblocks. I am not constitutionally capable of preventing this, although I like to think that I can keep such analysis in appropriate perspective. The key, I believe, is to be very clear with oneself that the information one is using to conduct these analyses is distorted and incomplete. Withhold judgements and decisions until more information is available and greater objectivity can be achieved.

The problem, of course, is that increasing the available information requires more contact, whereas increasing objectivity requires less contact. Slowing things down permits a healthier balance between those two conflicting requirements.

I have mixed feelings about this. I do not see how having a friend stay over in the guest room is "playing house." If a friend is visiting from out of town, it is only natural for me to invite them to stay at my house, and it does not in any way suggest that I want or intend anything more than that. There are two caveats, however.

If there is someone who might be adversely affected - as in they might get the wrong idea about what is going on - then it's not a good idea. There is a limit to how far you can take this, though. In many cases, a person who assumes that you are sleeping with someone of the opposite sex who stays overnight in the guest room may very well assume that you are sleeping with that someone just because you are dating them. People will think what they think.

If there is real risk that either party will have difficulty maintaining boundaries under these conditions - as LL has intimated might be the case - then again it's not a good idea.

There's been a lot said since I last responded.

AGG,


Yes, I know that. They are just usually two people who ran into each other at the wrong time. Don't take this personally at all--it's a bet of a pet peeve with me--I hate the term 'soulmate' and I hope I never find myself saying I've found mine. I don't believe there is just one person out there for each of us. I think we can be compatable with a lot of different people in different situations. Do I'm not saying this guy is my soulmate, but I am saying I really like him a lot and I feel very comfortable when I'm with him.


I pretty much buy that one. That's why I'm writing on here and talking to people I work with, and praying to God on the side.


The comparisons aren't about how he feels about me vs. them. The comparisons are about lifestyle choices more than anything. For example, his girlfriend he very much believed was a strong Christian at the start because she was quite involved in her church. But in reality, she partied and got drunk pretty much every weekend with her 'church friends', she was consoling several friends who were in affairs, and she'd been through several men since her divorce. So when I tell him I'm a Christian, he is comparing what he sees me doing and how I'm living with how she lived. And these were behaviors that apparently she showed from the start. That's an example. As for how he felt about them, I believe he very much still loved his wife when she decided to leave and he loved this other woman as well--it was just a little hard to have a relationship without trust, and she broke that when she ran back a few times to another man.


Believer,

Hi! You're right--a bit of a change.

JO,

I do see differently on the kid issues than you (and others on here) do. My daughter is a very unique girl. I won't get into her issues on here, but they're mainly behavioral and have caused serious grief and heartache for me, for her, for others. I don't see her getting attached to this guy as a father figure, friend, or anything else and then getting all upset if he leaves. If anything, I think being around him may be a good "stable adult" influence to offset the other adult influences she has who are druggies, alcoholics, etc. Plus, he's a special education teacher who deals with troubled teens on a regular basis, so he may have some insight as he gets to know her.

As for meeting his kids, that was his choice.

CS,

No, it was actually almost a month ago. (Not that there's much difference between 2 weeks and a month).



Strangely enough, because this feels so good, I actually spend a lot of time wondering when the shoe will drop and everything will blow sky high. I think that's what will sabotage it quicker than anything. Good things have never lasted very long for LL (although that was in my marriage), so I'm nervous.

LH,


I don't at all think you're out to beat up on me and even though I'm maybe being a little more stubborn about this than you'd all like, I do appreciate the input and I do come back and reread the posts.

You asked what I meant about this guy being someone who wants to be in a relationship. Without divulging everything he's said to me and everything I've observed (because he does deserve some privacy, should he ever get to read anything on here I've written), his history suggests that when he finds someone he really likes, he tends to move fairly quickly into a serious relationship. Of the 5 years he's been divorced (and the 3.5 since he started dating), he's been in a relationship almost 3 of those 3.5 years.


This is probably my biggest struggle right now, and it's a mental one. I don't want to go against my core values, and it's my goal not to. I truly believe sex outside of marriage is a sin, and that I will miss God's blessing in my life if I go there. I just am not as confident in myself as I was 6 weeks ago (before the major incident). That showed me how vulnerable I am once I'm close to a guy (physically), having been without anything at all for almost 20 months (except for said incident)--in all honesty, I miss it a great deal. So that's why I am less sure of myself, but the only way I know for absolute certain to guarantee nothing will happen is to quit dating. And it's not like if I quit dating for 2 years and then start, that my desire for that will have lessened over the course of time. So, yes, that's going to be a big struggle. I can feel it. I need to keep my focus on God.


I am not at all worried about anything happening this weekend when he's over. First, it's my house--and my daughter will be in and out. Second, there are biological reasons that it won't this time, even if we were alone 100% of the time. Third, he's showed me no reason to believe he's going to agressively pursue it like the other guy did. We've been out 7 times, we spent part of date #6 in the back seat of his car snuggling in a nighttime thunderstorm at a park listening to a wonderful CD (because we wanted some alone time and he was over my direction, and my son was home) and all clothes remained on, and his hands never went to places the shouldn't go. It would have been a prime opportunity, and yet we were very much on the up-and-up.

It's more that I'm concerned as things progress, that down the line we could be facing some real struggles. He won't go anywhere I don't want to go. The problem is, I know myself well enough to know I'll want to go there. The issue is, will we both be strong enough to keep our focus where it needs to be and not let it go there.


Okay, I know this is serious stuff, but that statement made me laugh just because it was funny! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> But in all honesty, I invited him to spend the weekend because I wanted to spend some relaxed time with him. I enjoy his company. We don't get to see each other during the week like we probably would if we lived closer. And once I'd invited him to come Friday night so we could get an early start on Saturday (btw, neither of us are morning persons--6:30am is almost an illegal time for eyes to open on a weekend--we're much better at still being on the phone at 2am), it was him who suggested that maybe he could stay Saturday night and go to church with me on Sunday. And I agreed.

And finally, about what you consider my sad statement about my kids (mainly my daughter), I could tell all of you so many much sadder statements about her, most of which I will keep to myself because they're really not relevant on this topic. But when you have a girl whose own father has offered her booze and meth this summer, when he wasn't just blowing her off like he does 99% of the time, and when you have a girl who has spent many weekend evenings taking care of her boyfriend's drunk mother, dragging her off her deck and into the house so some guy doesn't come along and attack her during the night, cleaning up the blood all over the house because the woman freaked out and hacked chunks out of her legs which required staples, etc... This girl has been through h*ll! So if she meets an adult who has some good Christian values, and she ends up maybe getting to know him and even perhaps to trust him a bit, I don't see that as a bad thing. I am, right now, about the only decent adult influence she's around, and like any good teenager, the last person she's going to listen to for any length of time is her parent--because parents are stupid when you're 16! So, she met him, talked to him for maybe 1/2 hour, and said to me later, "Mom, he's a nice boy." I have no intention of bringing in a stream of guys. And I've not said anything to her that would make her believe I'm making wedding plans or anything with him. I've just said, "DD, his name is xx and I really like him a lot." But I think any responsible, respectful adult influence she gets to see is a good thing for her, because she certainly doesn't see much of it.

So maybe I'm a totally confused mom at this point. I admit I've not done the best raising her, though he has tried to offset some of my beating myself to death by reminding me that people who have not dealt with a child like her don't understand what she's like to deal with. And that people who had a normal marriage/parenting situation have no concept of what it has been like to try and parent her as basically a single parent all along, because her alcoholic father never participated in the parenting, nor did he back me up. Not that those things make it right, but they are part of the dynamics of why things are like they are now.

I sort of got off track with the DD comments, but want people who may not know her story to know we're not dealing with a normal 16-year-old. And as for her brother, he's 19, he refuses to even talk to his own father because he doesn't approve of A) what he's doing with his fiancee and B) his drug/alcohol lifestyle. He was never close with his dad, and really never bonded with anyone except sort of with me. I don't see him getting all attached to this guy and then not adjusting if he leaves. And his longtime girlfriend's mom is divorced and dating right now, too, so he's already familiar with dating parents.

As for Mr. Awesome's kids, like I said, if he wants me to meet them, I will (which I did). I see that as his decision as to how he wants to handle it, and if he's comfortable with it, I am, too. He seems to be a pretty decent father, and his kids seem to respect him.

LL

OK Lordslady - I have a question and I mean no disrespect to anyone - but here is my question.... You say you want to wait until you get married until you have sex - that - it is one of your top priorities as a Christian - but I have to ask - Maybe this is unrealistic???? I mean one were you a virgin when you got married??? I am looking at this thinking ok - well what if you push along feelings so you can get married just so you can have sex and not feel like you are offending god... I mean I think and this is just my opinion - if you are not a virgin to begin with - and you have been in a committed relationship for awhile and you are sure this relationship is right - who says you cannot have sex after a time ??? Why do you have to wait until marriage.... I mean I don't think sex is a bad thing... Not very many people wait until they get married - per say... I mean their are teenagers who do not engage in sex because they don't want to not be a virgin - yet they have oral sex... I mean are you going to date someone for a year - get married after that then have sex - Are you only gonna kiss before then??? I mean you are an adult - I am not saying sleep around but if you are in a committed relationship - sex seems to be the next step...Am I wrong?? Plus I think we all need love and miss that - the intimacy - I mean I am not involved with anyone but I couldnt imagine having a boyfriend someone I was falling in love with - and not having sex until I was married because I gotta tell you though I would love to get married sometime - that is not my top priority....

Kids are not as stupid as we wish them to be sometimes. LL has alluded to "sneaking pecks" with Mr. Wonderful when they are out with the kids, and reading between the lines, it is clear that she and he are making out pretty seriously.

Kids pick up on that quite easily; they can tell when someone is a "friend" from out of town, or if it's a romantic interest.

Kids notice the smallest flirty touch, the most subtle loving look, the most gentle word of affection between their parent and a "new friend".

AGG

My .02

*Bill is right. Get comfy being SINGLE and in your own skin for a while.

*REalize that being a BS and a DBS (adding the big d onto that title) is somewhat of a flashing sign that says "hey people...this person has a ZERO balance in their love bank"...thus, as I have found, it means that even not the right person can trigger the "lovey dovey" feelings inside of you b/c you're on zero.

*Again, something does not seem right to me.

*Know you've grieved, but you need to make sure that you're completely thru the mourning process...in order to lessen the already heavy baggage some of us are carrying along with us as newly single people.

*don't let your children meet this person or have a relationship with him until it's serious...and that is established over time. I have only let ONE person see my son...and that was ONE time. That was somebody I'd seen, my xbf...off and on for almost a year. Kids deal with enough with their WS/parent. No more revolving doors with men or women for the kids...

*BS CAN WALK INTO THE FOG TOO! Be able to see the triggers there...you do things that might make yourself say...a year earlier...than now cringe. Ex: introducing the kids to your boyfriend...you know, the boyfriend without the committment...doesn't that sound a bit like our WS did?

It sounds honestly to me like you're missing that "spot" your xh used to occupy. I know. I missed somebody being in that spot. You know. Somebody when I felt like "it". Somebody to fix things around the house, sit around, breathe air, and make me feel not alone. Somebody to take out the trash...etc...but then again, my xh did little of that. He hired people to do it. But miss dinners out, fancy jewelry, etc...that stuff. And the not having to work part either.

Once I got over that stuff, I realized I was not missing my WS at all. I didn't need anybody really to complete me or my son. We had each other. And life is ok.

All will fall together, the pieces that is, in good time my dear.

GNP,

Once again, you were posting while I was responding to people so missed yours earlier.

So, responding to your "friend staying over" statement. Okay, let's all be serious here--he's not a "friend". He is someone I'm in a relationship with. The kids know this. They know I like him. And they know he is staying over IN THE GUEST ROOM this weekend. And they are fine with that. I don't think they would be if he weren't staying in a different room, though.

As for how it looks to others, you are totally correct about now nowadays people think you are sleeping with someone if you're are dating them, regardless if they stay over or not. It's expected. So I'm not worried about how it might look.

As for it being risky where it comes to maintaining boundaries, yes this may become an issue--not this weekend by any means, but perhaps at some point. One of the things that I think comes naturally in any relationship that progresses is a desire to be close to that person, and close can equate to SF if one is not careful. If you don't desire to be close, then that itself seems like a problem. So it's all about how we handle that desire. And I don't really want to have to always have our "dates" in public places just to prevent an issue. That just seems weird.

Maw,

Further explanation: It's not that having SF before marriage is the only thing I'm focused on as a Christian. It's that in general, when we know something is wrong in God's eyes and we do it (whether it's premarital sex or telling a lie), it's a sin. We can't pick and choose what we obey vs. what we don't obey.

Was I a virgin before marriage--heck no! Not even close! I started having SF with my boyfriend at the age of 15 and continued frequently until I was 19 and married him. However, I was also not a Chistian at that point. Until he left me in Feb 2004, I'd never been without for longer than 9 months and that happened in the latter years of our marriage. When I wasn't dating, there were days when it was easier and days where I really missed it, but it was much easier just because there was no one to be with so it was a non-issue. But when one starts dating, there IS someone to be with, and then for someone who is not used to being without, the challenges begin, because I really miss the intimacy.

As for what I will do before marriage, I'm not sure. I consider oral sex to be sex, so if that happens, it's violating my beliefs as well. So perhaps yes I'm saying I'm going to just kiss and cuddle. And it's very hard to think about just kissing and cuddling with someone for years without anything else. One day at a time...

AGG,

While we may have made out pretty seriously on a few walks or in the back seat of the car during the thunderstorm (which by the way still involved us being completely clothed and no hands where they didn't belong), we seriously have done no kissing beyond quick little pecks in front of anyone else.

As for trying to pass him off as a "friend", like I said to GNP, I'm not trying to do that at all. I hate to say 'boyfriend' because that's so teenage. So I guess "romantic interest" is the proper term for what he is to me.

JP,

I've had 19 months to get comfy being single for the most part becuase that's when my ex moved out and moved her in (even though they weren't "technically" living together at that point). I've been alone in the house since that point, even though I didn't legally become "single" until last November.

I'm not a big social person--never have been--so I'm not out making all sorts of new friends nor do I really have this huge craving to do that. I've spent a lot of time working and a lot of time dealing with my daughter and some time doing things around my house. It has been peaceful and my blood pressure is lower than it ever was when I was married (seriously!). But I'm ready to move on to something more now.

I realize that I'm vulnerable having not had a man in my life (and had the affection associated with that) in some time, and that pretty much any affection or attention will cause me to question my feelings for a person. But of the 5 guys I went out with, while 2 of them were just duds, the other three all showed attention/affection and I enjoyed being with them. However, two of them had the "red flags" going on that just kept bumping around in the back of my brain and I couldn't get past them, thus they are of no more, even though they made me feel good.

Regarding my children meeting him or having a relationship with him, those are two different things. I don't see either of my children having a relationship with any guy for a long time. It's not who they are.

As for mourning the loss of my marriage, I think I started the mourning process when he started spending days and weekends with her in December 2003, so by the time we were divorced, it was pretty much mourned. If my parents could let go and not bring him up each time I call, it'd be great. As for me, I rarely ever talk to him. I communicate with them maybe once every two months or so, usually about late child support, and half that communication goes through his fiancee.

Looking back (and I've mentioned this on other posts before I started dating), I realized that what so many people said was true, that what I thought I had was really just the illusion or the dream of what I wanted (common in marriages with alcohol or other addictions). What I really had was much different, and now that I'm away from it and see that life can be really normal and what I had was nowhere even close to that, I don't want anything to do with it ever again.

I don't think I so much miss the spot my ex occupied, because he really wasn't around much. He stayed out late many nights during the week and other than the one weekend day that we'd usually go out to eat, I spent little time with him. Our sex life was pretty much non-existant for months at a time over the last several years of my marriage. He didn't buy me gifts, flowers, etc. He did take care of the yard and the cars, but I'm certainly not expecting this new guy to do that for me. I've been handling that on my own. And I've always had to work because I was the primary bread winner.

I have my kids, but it's not like you and your son. My kids are much older. They have their own lives. My son is going back to college tomorrow night. My daugher is 16 and is frequently not home until midnight. So it's just me and the dogs. I really do want someone else in my life and whether right or not, I really would like that person to be a partner, not just some female friend I can have coffee with. It's who I am. It's how I'm wired. I don't think it makes me needy or anything. I CAN survive on my own. It's just something I don't want to do if I can find ways around it.