Why is your 16 year old daughter, who is not an adult, out until Midnight? Are you making the parental decisions that someone at that vulnerable age needs, so that one parent is not just "more stable than her dad" but meeting the parental needs that she has the right to expect from you because you are her mom? She sounds like she needs direction from someone, are you willing to give that to her or are your own needs #1?

LL,

I have several questions for you. From what you have mentioned about all the crap your daughter have gone through with her Dad, why do you allow her to be in that kind of environment? Clearly your EX is putting her in danger. Second, why is she out till midnight? I wouldn't allow my son to do that, he's 18. I'm very careful with my children, I can't imagine allowing my daughters to be out that late at 16.


JO

Adgirl and JO,

I will try not to take offense at statements that come from people who have no idea what it's like to raise a child like my daughter. It's taken me a long time to accept that the reason she is the way she is isn't 100% my fault, and I'm not going back to that point again.

Off topic for this post, but the story is that she has ADHD and ODD (oppositional defiant disorder). My daughter does what my daughter wants to do and no one will convince her otherwise--not me, not her father, not school authorities (she's been expelled from her high school and is currently in an alternative HS) and not the police (she's had her share of run-in's for running away and various other issues.)

Now before anyone jumps all over me for my lack of parenting skills, I'd like to point out that her older brother who had the exact same parenting and actually probably far less attention because he required no school assistance is a 2nd year student at U of I majoring in actuarial sciences and he gave me virtually no major parenting challenges (other than thinking with the wrong head from a very early age).

She refuses to take meds for the ADHD and there is no way to force that issue. She can't be grounded because unlike 99% of other teens, all she does is wait until I go to work or step out of the house and then she leaves, and if she's angry with me she's been known to stay away for a few days.

She was raised in an alcoholic household where she saw her dad and I fight frequently. He was not involved in her schooling or really in parenting in general. Other than watching them in the evenings if I worked or if I was traveling for business, he did not interact with them on a regular basis. If I disciplined them, he countered it. If I said they couldn't watch such-and-such, he waited until I was traveling and rented it for them. So from a very early age, neither child was taught to respect me at all. That is not something I can demand at this point.

As for her being around her father at this point, she's 16, she has freedom and she can do what she chooses to do. I can't stop that. And from time to time she chooses to see him. But he doesn't exercise his rights to weekend visits or summer vacations with her, he never has, and he never will. She sees him maybe once every couple months at best and talks to him on the phone maybe once a week from what I understand.

So, the last therapist she saw was the one who most helped both of us (she and I). She said (as hard as this was for me to accept), "Mom, you've taught her everything you can teach her at this point. She gets it. Now she just has to choose whether or not to apply it. The best thing you can do is keep the lines of communication open."

So, she has a cell phone. She generally answers it. And while she lives a life totally different than I would have chosen for her, we actually have a much better relationship right now than we did a summer ago when everything was blowing up and she was at her worst. My only choices right now are to accept her the way she is and try by example to teach her a few more things before she leaves, or to kick her out or let the state take her. Neither of the latter choices are acceptable to me.

So, the rules are: 1) no drinking in my house, 2) no smoking in my house (she smokes, but outside, and I don't buy for her), and 3) no strange boys in my house without my permission.

Did my son have these same rules? Absolutely not! He stayed out one night during the spring of his senior year and I found him at his girlfriend's mom's house and about blew a gasket. But adjustments have been made for my daughter because she is just a completely different person.

My goals and expectations and hopes and dreams for her have been adjusted and adjusted and adjusted some more. And I hate some of the things she does. But I do believe she's not doing drugs at all, she's not drinking like she used to, and actually she's being a lot more loving toward me and she's sharing things with me about her life that she didn't used to feel comfortable sharing. So this is working the best.

So whether no one at all agrees with the way I'm handling things right now, that's their choice. She's my daughter.

I did take offense at the statement about my own needs being #1. Until you can tell me you've sacrificed days of work for appointment after appointment for doctors, school officials, etc. Until you have fought and fought to get her accepted in another school. Until you have retrieved her at all hours of the night when you get an "I need a ride" call. And until you drop everything on one of your busiest weeks of the summer at work, call your boss and tell him you won't be in until later, and jump in the car and do a 310 mile round trip at the crack of dawn to retrieve her yet again (did that on Monday), and then come back exhausted and work until 10pm to make it up, putting aside your own needs for food and sleep and anything else, you shouldn't tell me that I'm making my needs #1.

LL

LL, You've heard all the cautionary tales from everyone who's worried about you moving to fast, but I just want to tell you I'm rooting for you and Mr. Wonderful. Having been married to an alcoholic/addict myself and having raised kids with serious behavioral issues, too, I can only imagine how nice it must be to have found a good man so different from your ex. I can relate to how having the kids around a normal, stable, responsible man could be a good thing, regardless of how it turns out - even for your kids to see you with someone like him must be reassuring for them. Maybe my judgement is warped by my own abusive, alcoholic marriage. In reading your responses, it sounds like you've thought things through. I'm sure there will be stumbling blocks and it may not end in marriage, but it sounds like a positive experience, especially after all you've been through. Hope you have a great time this weekend, and don't do anything that you'll regret later.

LL,

In spite of all the warnings and cautions you have received (even from me), I am very happy that you seem to have found a prospective good guy.

As for your daughter, I am glad you have finally gotten to a point where things are peaceful.

Unfortunately, I kind of wish I was in your shoes. Marital loneliness is very sad.

As a parent I do not believe your needs are #1 while that child is looking to you for guidance. And she needs direction, and loving discipline. Every kid does. But to just bend the rules for her and let her stay out til all hours- smoke outside your house- you can't go to the store and buy cigarettes if you are under 18. That is illegal. Why in the world would you let her smoke outside your home under the legal age?

You said:
And until you drop everything on one of your busiest weeks of the summer at work, call your boss and tell him you won't be in until later, and jump in the car and do a 310 mile round trip at the crack of dawn to retrieve her yet again (did that on Monday), and then come back exhausted and work until 10pm to make it up, putting aside your own needs for food and sleep and anything else, you shouldn't tell me that I'm making my needs #1.

Retrieving her 310 miles roundtrip is called enabling. Why is a 16 year old 310 miles roundtrip away? I don't know about your state but in my state there is a curfew law. If there isn't a curfew law why is she in your house and following her own rules?

I have heard enough advice from parents of "normal" kids to write a book during my DD's 16 years. I won't pursue wilderness school (too short, not-effective, and costs thousands that I don't have), rehab (she's not on booze/drugs) or mental health (ADHD/ODD aren't qualifyers for mental health stays unless they're a danger to themselves or others--she's not).

Don't ever suggest I've given up on her! If I had, I would have turned her over to the state like her old school guidance counselor suggested at the point they expelled her. Unless you've parented a child with these issues who has been raised basically by the mother, with no backup or disciplinary support from the father who is an alcoholic, don't make assumptions as to how I'm parenting or whose needs I'm putting first, or suggest that I've given up.

With that, because this is a subject that I find very upsetting because of too many well-meaning but uninformed people, I think I'll be done now responding about my child to this or any future posts on the subject.

LL

I edited my post and kept the part I am still wondering about in.
You certainly have a right to not reply.
As for your other question, no it isn't love. It is obsession.

Lordslay - I don't think that anyone can offer you advice on how to rais a teenager unless they have been there and done that and at that you can listen but it may not work.. I find it interesting how some people can have children that are just perfect and that break no rules... I believe those parents are fooling themselves... Their kids are probably the ones sneaking around doing it behind their backs... You have to come to an agreement and find a way that works for your household... No one is perfect... I actually am lucky that my daughter is 15 and has no major problems - sure she swears like a truckdriver at times but if that is all she does then I can voice my objections and hope that sooner or later she will realize it is not attractive.. I have a friend that has an 18 year old son - he is smart - he has quit school - all he does is get high - doesn't have a job - yet he had the world at his feet - she had to kick him out - so maybe he will hit rock bottom and then she can help him - now he goes around from house to house - still has no job - lets his friends pay for everything - but he hasn't realized that he has to help himself and it is killing my friend... as far as teenagers go - you have to pick your battles and do the best that you can.... Do not get upset about other peoples advice - just thank them and do what you think is best and what works for you ...

LL, I really enjoy seeing you defend yourself. It seems your self-esteem is returning. Whatever happens with this man, I am glad you are realizing what a wonderful person you are.

LL --
I also had a teenager with the ODD/ADD diagnosis.
My heart goes out to you. No one else in the world understands what you're going through, and everyone thinks they have the solutions.

Just so you know -- that child broke my heart over and over again between the ages of 13 - 17. He is now 19 and an absolute joy.

(((HUGS)))

If a 16 year old can break the law with her mother sitting there (smoking outside) and drinking some, won't she come to the belief that if she is difficult, or ADD, or ODD, that she has the right to break the law if it is what she wants or it makes her feel good? All I am saying, is if she can't follow the rules of a household, why does she live in it? Why does Lordslady allow illegal things to happen around her property? And then enabling her to keep doing it, by picking her up? The 16 year old could be in jail for doing some of the things she is doing.

I just think Lordslady is her mom and with that comes responsibilities, no matter how difficult a teenager you have.

adgirl, backoff.

You are assuming that LL's daughter has some reasonably normal regard for her parents decisions, the law, and so on. Some kids don't, and at 16 a parent is hard pressed to enforce any rules. Maybe your state has tough laws that let a parent crack down in a defiant kids, but in many states that can't be done. In my home state, a parent that uses physical force to grab a runaway kids, force her into the car and take her home can be charge with asault if the child decides to press charges! Locking the child in the house is also illegal. And that assumes the child won't trash the room he is locked in to try and get out. Listening in to a child's phone conversation is a violation of their privacy rights! No I am NOT kidding.

You can go to court to get a judge to order the child to go to school, stay at home and so on, but the state will pay for her lawyer to fight you. So you get to hire your own lawyer while she gets a free one.

What I am saying is the a parent can bee 110% responsible and do all the right things and still loose control of a child through no fault of their own.

JE, Did you even read my post? Nothing you are saying has virtually anything to do with what I am saying.
A parent is never 110% responsible. In fact, a 16 year old is responsible to some degree with what she is doing, the choices she is making. My point was, LL has the responsibility to continue to parent. By enabling her by picking her up 310 miles roundtrip, I don't see that as helping anyone. What I am saying is a 16 year old who has no regard for the law, should fall to those consequences instead of having food clothing and shelter but not a parental figure in the household she lives in, and the ability to do what she pleases and the luxury of getting away with it- something adults don't. Adults break the law, they pay. Why should a 16 year old not fall to her own consequences for the choices she makes? At the same time, LL is a mom, who has the parental responsibility (not responsibility for her daughter's choices but for portraying what choices are and are not appropriate) of disciplining her daughter. Allowing her to do things that LL does not approve of, in LL's house, shows her daughter that her daughter is the boss and can run all over her mother. And meanwhile, her mother is ga ga over a guy she has known 3 weeks, when 4 weeks ago she thought she was pregnant with another man's child, and then wants to know if that is love!? And it is ok if he stays over because her daughter understands. I am just saying, it sounds like from what is being said here, there are a lot of boundary issues, emotional issues, and examples of unhealthy relationships. It sounds completely out of control, except maybe it is being controlled now, because everyone is going their separate ways and just playing nice to keep the peace.

Maybe I should toss up my hands and say Whatever Like Cinderella did on this post a long time ago.

[color:"brown"]LL,

My almost 16yo daughter acts the way that your daughter acts. I have punished her, punished her more, taken the cigarettes, punished her, sent to boot camp, punished her, gone looking for her, screamed at her, punished her, and then finally tried working on a mutually respective relationship. I choose my battles, ignore the rest except to tell her what my honest opinion is, and it works much better for both of us.

She is required to let me know where she is at all times and provide names and phone numbers. I meet with any parents whose children she spends time with. If she wants anything from me the exchange is - clean your room and I'll do it.

Now I do understand that there are children out there smoking pot and drinking and carrying on. This is not something I tolerate and she knows I will not hesitate to call the police or send her out of my house for those things. But as far as the rest is concerned - I ask for the bare minimum and at least I get that. When we were embattled she was too angry to give me that.

No one but a parent who has had this sort of "difficult child" could possibly understand the dynamic. Don't let people who have not lived through this personally, tell you how what you are doing by picking your battles is wrong.

I will say this - if my daughter does create a situation for herself I make her get herself out of it. In the case of being 150 miles away - depending on all the circumstances, I might have looked up a bus schedule and the western union office for her... It SHOULD be painful to be in a bind that you stupidly get yourself into - how else will you really learn not to do something stupid?

Anyway, not knowing the full circumstances, I really can't comment.

V. [/color]

Adgirl -- I agree with Justin -- backoff.

You have no idea what dealing with an ODD child is about.
They CRAVE conflict. They THRIVE on making authority figures go ballistic. They will push every button they can find FOR FUN.

You're implying that she should just be turned over to the authorities and LL's should just through her hands up and say "whatever". That is not being a loving parent in my book. LL's is doing a remarkable job with an incredibly difficult situation -- one that you don't fully understand and should stop commenting on.

Lexxy:You're implying that she should just be turned over to the authorities and LL's should just through her hands up and say "whatever".

ME: Not even in the ballpark of what I am suggesting. Never never never. More of what sunnyva39 is saying. I would agree with.

BTW, how does anyone that has implied I don't know what I am saying because I am not a parent, know my family situation, family history, or my profession?
You can say I am not fully aware of Lordslady circumstances- that is fair- -but don't say I don't know from my own experiences.

Adgirl,

Now that I have read you response to me, I reread your earlier mesage and I see where you are coming from. I guess I just needed it spelled out more clearly, because it did seem to me at first that you were going in a different directin.

Sometimes, tough love is what is needed with kids.

I believe there is a book called "Parenting with Love and Logic" that talks about natural consequences and letting children experience them.

I think the books tells a story of a couple with a very rebellious 19 year old son. They are having a dinner party when they get a call from their son saying he was arrested for drunk driving and he wants to be bailed out. The mother is upset and want to end the party and go to her son. The father (Sometimes, Father DOES know best.) Calmly tells her that it is the son's problem, not their's and they should continue with their party and enjoying themselves. The next morning, having let their son spend the his first ever night in jail, the father picks him up.

Yes, we are on the same page now JE. I appreciate you going back to reread. Tough love, but I just think parenting without enabling is so important. It's hard to do I know, but important.

Ok.....rather than argue with you. Tell me what you know about ODD, lets discuss.