^^^Bump for Jeeping^^^

THank you,

I will read this to gain insite. I am @ work now.

I appreciate your concern and thoughtfulness.

Thank you

bump for Ashley

^^bumpity bump^^

^^^Bump for new eyes^^^ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Ok, I have no idea how I missed seeing this thread, but I sure am glad I ^^bumped^^ into it! Thanks guys!

One thing I've come to realize is that strong does NOT equal arrogant. I'd always thought it did, somehow. In all reality, strength in its most powerful form is humble. Godly strength is made perfect in weakness--God gives us just what we need, when and ONLY when we need it. I saw this manifested in my own life on D-day. There was no way on earth that I would have been able to survive those first few days and weeks under my "own" strength. If I hadn't seen *something* coming a week or two before D-day and started praying for strength, I'd have been a much bigger mess when FWH finally dropped the bomb. I was able (and have been able ever since then) to sit there and listen to him discuss his feelings for and his interactions with another woman. That fact alone shocks the life out of me. That I was able to put aside the fear long enough to do waht I knew HAD to be done is evidence that God HEAPED that strength on me when I needed it. FWH has also told me that my strength proved to him I was able to look at things objectively. Without that strength I don't think we'd be in recovery today. We'd be in court.

This should be a daily bump! Suzet, bless your pea picking heart for typing out and posting this very helpful article. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Mel and here is another bump! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks Suzet, I needed this.

FL

Okay,
I'll play devils advocate at the risk of being stoned in the village square:

Firstly, I need most of this. What you've posted. The way it's written.

BUT! Huge but!
Isn't there always?

As BSs we've been beaten down.
No amount of "I'm a good person, and people like me gosh darn it." Or sitting around telling ourselves that we can break bricks with our heads is going to change the fact we've been dealt a blow that sent us reeling.

I'm not looking for sympathy. However, from the outside looking in, even from a recovered BS's perspective looking back: telling a person who is in the midst of the pain, fear, self-doubt, self-loathing, or mistrust to buck up, be strong. Be the proverbial "man". That doesn't work.

Sorry, but every BS is a vitim. That's a fact.
It's different than standing up to a bully in the play ground.
I'm a man, I would never presume to know the pain and fear a woman who has been raped goes through. Nor do I understand the recovery associated with that crime.
Yet, sadly that is how I feel. My soul was raped by my wife. Left raw. Salt poured onto me for months on end.

And someone wants to tell me to be strong. Or Get over it.
Or spout -ism's at me:

There is a grieving, healing, and forgiviness process that must occur with all BS. OR we can try to sweep it under the carpet (and take it from me that doens't work).
Re-building our character cannot happen until those things happen first.

In my opinion, bumping a thread daily, and patting yourself on the back for being strong "today", while looking back over your shoulder at your past only serves as a constant reminder and further hurt to those BS who are crying inside today.
Telling them to be strong, is no different than what they are getting from their callous WSs' at home who say: "Won't you get over it already.!?"

pokedad, so do you think the answer is to indulge our fears at a time when strength is most needed and allow ourselves to be twice victimized? One does not have to be "healed" in order to overcome their fears and operate from a position of strength. Being "beaten down" does not mean out of the game. Of course we are beaten down, but that does not mean we are powerless in the face of our fears.

We don't have to ever choose to lay down and die, contributing to our "victimhood" just because we are traumatized. If we do so, then we are no longer victims, but volunteers. No one is sweeping the wounds under the carpet, but rather, emphasizing that one does not have to be a victim TWICE, once by the WS and then a second time by our own hand.

Encouraging BS' to conquer their fears is not hurting them or telling them to "get over it." Telling a BS he is too "beaten down" to defend himself is an insult is very very harmful, IMO; and just an excuse for inaction.

ahhhhhh, [lightbulb moment!] I think I understand why you are offended now. You think the purpose of posting the article was a message to BS' telling them to shut up and get over it, don't you?

I don't think it is saying that at all, nor do I believe that was Suzet's point. The reason I think this article is valuable to BS' is because it takes great courage to battle an affair. It takes courage to expose, courage to endure Plan A, even greater courage to go into Plan B. But it is all necessary in order to save one's marriage. So, an article that addresses fear is very valuable in that sense.

However, if I thought the article was posted for the reasons you cited, ie: telling the BS to "get over it," I would not only be offended, as you are, but I would be ANGRY. I just don't think it is saying that and I agree that would be a terrible message.

Oh go ahead blame the BS for their own pain! Bravo!
That is straight from the WS school of healing!

The BS has already been vitimized!


this reminds me of song lyrics by Sineid O'Conner:

"...And if there ever is gonna be healing
There has to be remembering
And then grieving
So that there then can be forgiving
There has to be knowledge and understanding..."

I'm not a therapist, I don't know what fixes us inside after being hurt.
I heard statements like:
I'm not going to be a victim again.
I'm not going to let myself be vunerable again.

Those are lines you would expect from a person who was physically harmed. But, they were written by a person here!

I don't think that is healing. Part-and-parcel to healing (within the affair context) is trusting again. Which of course is a fine line if we follow the MB guidlines: trust leads to betrayal. If you don't trust someone they can't betray you (again).

I'm not talking about wallowing in you pain (which I've done plenty of). Not talking about making a myrter of yourself.
The BS must be able to grieve. Safely. With the support of the WS (or alone if the marriage ends). Telling them to buck up before they can do this is wrong.
The WS doesn't want this to happen. Either they don't care, or they are eaten up with remorse. Whatever the case, they don't want to be involved.
SO!!! They say get over it.

People looking back don't want others to suffer as they did. In which case they say: You're a great person. You are strong. You didn't deserve this.
All polite (but well meaning) ways to say, GET OVER IT!

Even you Melody, in a blunt well meaning way said it.
Hey, you don't want to be a victim twice.

Indifinite grieving isn't healthy. But, it must happen. It must happen in a manner that is acceptable to the BS. On their terms.

It's easy to forget the pain. No one wants to dwell on it. Just like a death of a loved one. You look at the lion share of the BS that visit this site. For the first 6 months they have so much on their plate, there is little time for grieving. By they time they can finally take their guard down, everyone is telling them to get over it. It's in the past.

pokedad, did you read my second post to you? You realize I am a BS, don't you?

Yes and Yes

Let me put it to you this way, as a parent, I don't want my children to suffer. So, I try to steer them from places where they might run into pain and suffering. I don't want them to fall down. I don't EVER want them to have a broken heart. I hope they can benifit from my wisdom.
Right? Most parents are this way.

BUT, in many cases we go a bit far. We do have to let them fall. We do have to let them fall in love, knowing they might get their heart broken.
All part of growing up, right?

Follow me so far?

Part of getting over an affair, as the BS, is grieving.
I think that gets glazed over all too often. It gets lumped in with antecdotes from recovered BS, who don't want people to suffer as they did.
Also from WS's who are just sick of the belly aching!

SO yes, regardless of intent, I'm miffed when I get told stop acting like a vitim. Be strong. You need to change this or that.
For the rest of my life, I will remember this. I hope to get beyond it. Heal. But that takes time.
As the BS so much is asked of us. We must trust again, nurture a WS, Love again, be strong, don't fear.....the list goes on and on..
yet with the exception of a few compasionate people in places like this message board....we are left to the wolves.

The same person who said they wouldn't be vunerable again also said....being the BS is a tough job.

And while you are working on yourself, your marriage, your job, your family....each day you want to cry.
So yeah, be strong is good advice....but, most BS's need to take time for themselves to heal.

pokedad, but who is saying that a BS should not grieve? Who is saying that it does not take time to heal?? No one has ever suggested that.

The purpose of posting the article is to encourage the BS to DEFEND themselves from harm. To encourage someone to stand up to EVIL is in no way telling them to "get over it" or that they can't grieve. I just can't fathom how you got such a message because it is saying nothing of the sort.

Dear Pokedad,

First I want to say I’m a FWW and I’m sorry if this article hurt and/or offended you in any way. The intention/message of the article was not to say to BS's to “get over it”. Nor did the article say you are NOT suppose to grief and heal. Of course grieving and healing is an important process to go through and takes time. If you have read some of my other posts about forgiveness, you will see that I feel very strong about the grieving and healing process after a traumatic event and that I gets upset with ANY suggestion which implies a BS “must get over it”.

If you read the start of my first post you will see I have posted the following:

"My hope is that new BS’s on these boards who feel unwilling, unsure and/or afraid to apply effective MB principles (like exposure) to help bust up their WS’s A’s, will find this thread helpful and will give them the necessary courage to apply and take these steps."

And further on in another post (to Pep) I’ve posted the following:

"My wish is that this post will be helpful to many people (especially newcomers) around here and give them the courage to do what they need to do... You know, I can just imagine how difficult (and even frightened) it must sometimes be for BS's to take certain steps (like exposure for example).

I think it’s very normal and human to initially feel afraid of the possible consequences and reaction of the WS’s should these steps be taken… even while the BS consciously knows and realize that the M have the best chance of survival (and often the only chance of survival) should these steps be taken.

In general, I think the thing to fear most in life is FEAR itself – and this applies to all areas in life... And sometimes even the fear of fear (if this make sense) becomes a problem... I have struggled (and sometimes still struggle) with this myself."

Pokedad, maybe you think because I’m a FWW what will I know? Or maybe you think I’m not in a position to post articles like this to BS’s because I’ve not experienced the pain of a BS myself and how dare I try to tell BS's what to do? Well, it’s true, I have not walked in a BS’s shoes, so I will NEVER know and understand the pain and devastation of a BS...even after all this time I’ve spent on these forums and the posts I have read. But I have known and experienced some other severe kind of betrayal and trauma in my life... Therefore I KNOW how it feels to grief and how long it takes to heal…I KNOW how it feels to be a victim…to experience fear and feelings of unworthiness etc.

Yes, although I’m not a BS, I think I can relate to some of the feelings you as a BS have gone through because I have struggled with related feelings. The message in that article (and the whole book) was helpful to me and helped to put some things and my own worthiness in perception for me again, and I just wanted to forward the same “blessing” I’ve received from it, to others too.

PD

Are you claiming permission to be paralysed bt fear and grief for BS ?

Absolutely we bs have that !!

Its just that such is not typically a response that rebuilds marriages or self esteem.

I was devastated by Squid's afair. Paralysed for WEEKS from doing anything effective. Pathetic in my instict to settle from crumbs from Squid rather than have her end her affair.

One day the penny dropped within me that a grovelling , mewling and puking BS is not an attractive one. OM was strutting around giving * ME * marriage advice FFS !!!!

So when Mel & Wat beat up on me to expose to his GF ( together 14 years, kids) the INDIGANTION welled up in me.

I wanted OM to bear the consequences of what he had done. If he and Squid ended up together then so be it, but my snivelling wouldn't prevent that. I had faced up to stuff all my life and I would again now.

So I exposed to OMS GF. Then I puked in the bushes with fear and relief.

And there was a faint, barely perceptable itch in my right hand as the situation whip passed from the infidels to the BS.

In that moment , PD, I became a Knight, and left my 'serf' personality behind.

NOTHING helped me recover from this HUGE insult more than my getting mad and doing the brave, righteous thing.

Trouble is PD, self pity and grief requires a sympathetic audience to be effecive or useful IMO. And the OP could give a shiny sh*t about the BS and the WS is just sickened by the patheticness of the BS, and it reinforces their rewrite of history which portrays the BS in a negative light.

So grieve, be sad but be COURAGEOUS too. By responding bravely , a BS takes the steps that have been proven time and time again to help end affairs and kickoff recovery WHILE ALSO displaying admirable traits that the FWS may come to respect again after the fog dissipates.

I rose up , stood erect and spat righteously in the eye of the affair. You want a fight, demon of infidelity? well YOU'RE ON !.

OM cringed and cowed. BEGGED me to leave him alone. OM GF thanked me earnestly for giving her the choice in life OM denied her.

Squid HATED my actions at the time, but has since told me that I was 'heroic' back then.

I ws so low, PD that I filled myself with wine and ADs and drove my car into a tree. I was a foot away from not walking away from that wreck.

Did absolutely NOTHING to help my life.

I have moved from strength to strength since then all because I have NOT let my fear or grief dictate my actions.

And PD, I am not an extraodinary man. These boards are LITTERED with BS who decided " enough!" and fought the affair with righteous anger.

Suzet's post academically reinforces the point that braver is almost always the right thing to exercise in response to a crisis. I do not know of many ( any?) successful recoveries where the BS has let grief overwhelm them for long.

Finally, PD you have the RIGHT to rspond in any way you think fit. But long may Mel advise the warrior's route to crushed BS as a way to restore their self confidence and end the affair.

^Bump^

Bump