Regarding the inappropriate relationship between my H and the 17 yo babysitter....

Counselor says while it is an extremely inappropriate relationship and should stop immediately, it is possible it is not a romantic relationship but one that meets some other need (in a warped way) such as father/daughter. And if my H is willing to end the relationship completely that I should be willing forgive,to move forward and we rebuild trust together.

What do you think? What if I'm wrong and it wasn't romantic although it may have been or could have ended up that way? I was on the black and white road, that is IS an affair and it WAS romantic or it was going to BECOME romantic and that what was going to happen, regardless....

am I nuts to let it go if my H lets me know that he's also willing to drop it (regardless of the type of relationship) and move forward? its very scary to me.

just how exactly do you plan on erasing it from your conciousness? if you just pretend it didnt happen i think your setting yourself up for real problems...just my humble opinion.

i also think your counselor is splitting hairs on what exactly an affair is or isnt. that also scares me....

I don't know if he actually said if it was or wasn't an affair..he said it may be a romantic relationship or it may not be, it doesn't matter either way its inappropriate, an obstruction to the marriage relationship, and did not stop and now has caused the same type of issues as an A. He was most concerned with my actions and reactions and my inability to see beyond my black and white road of definates: He also asked me what I would do if it wouldn't stop and I said he would have to leave. And if it did stop we would have to back up to the beginning of the alphabet and relearn A, B, C skip D, and make it to E, F, and G.

He brought up the self-fulfilled prophecy. What if it wasn't romantic at all and I'm accusing him of cheating on me with a minor?

So, I guess....does it matter either way? Romantic or not?

Oh, I'm not going to erease it from my conciousness, obviously the relationship filled some need of his and so that is what I want to concentrate on...what can I do to fill the need appropriately.

Ok...to put it in fewer words. What if what I'm believing is based totally on irrational fears and a total fabrication of my imagination?

I know the relationship is inappropriate no matter what type it is, and I know what harm it has caused and why and what has to happen to rebuild trust. Is that enough to worry about? Especially if it is over and he chooses to move on?

Didn't your husband spend lots of time talking to her behind your back? Father/daughter relationship - ha. I would get another counselor.

It sounds like your counselor doesn't know the first thing about affairs. If your husband is involved in any way with another female -- sexually, emotionally, or both -- and investing time, energy and attention in her that should be going to the marriage, then it's cheating.

Black and white? You bet. I've been accused of seeing things in black and white too. Sorry, either someone is committed to their marriage 100% or they are not. And if they are not, they are begging for trouble and should not be surprised when it shows up.

Your counselor is also trying to blame YOU for the problems in the marriage. How nice for your husband. I say bollocks to that. Get another counselor!
Mulan

For what it's worth, Steve Harley says that it's enough that it was an issue between you and your spouse. It bothered you, a lot. Whether you want to call it an affair, or a friendship, or a chicken pot pie it's immaterial. It bothered YOU, and your WH was indifferent to your feelings. According to Harley, THAT is an issue. If there was lying, that is an issue, too. That is firmer ground than who is imagining what.

You can move forward from there, without reference to who put whose hand where.

Lets see MMMmmmmmmmmmmm

young almost woman
half my age
treated as an adult for the first time
someone to pay attention to her as an adult
creation of a intimate/ hidden relationship
overwhelmed by the attention
etc
etc
etc

mmmmm lets see if I can run that one past my wife ...

Father/daughter ..yeah sure <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

At the least he was beginning to create a EA so I dont think you are going crazy at all.

I suspect he's trying to down play the issue thinking it will hurt less.

A M Martins post has it right, call it what you like it has still created the issues in your M that need attention now.
Tell the MC that to...the lies etc have caused you to feel xyz, your H has to work with you on repairing that.

For what it's worth. I have been put thru the same thing...except not by the MC but by WH. He claims that I have "overexagerated the situation". He claims that it is sad that I have gone thru all this and put him thru all this for absolutely nothing...."nothing happened"! At times he actually makes me wonder if I have misinterpreted all the signs and red flags by him and others.

But I still go back to the facts and KNOW that it has caused mucho pain and lots of destruction in our M. Until I left for a month, he was no way willing to give an inch with this "friendship." Said I was "NOT GOING TO CONTROL HIM NOR WOULD HE ALLOW ME TO CONTROL HIS LIFE!" He was willing to partial NC upon my return by not bowling "this year" on the same league as OW, but guess who's # I found on his list of contacts under an alias? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

All this cr-- tells me no I AM NOT CRAZY NOR AM I LIVING AN OBSESSIVE FANTACY as he would like me to believe. Yes, maybe it had not yet come to a PA and maybe in some people's eyes I have been overreacting but I KNOW WHAT I KNOW. I know the total disregard for my feelings. I know the lying and secrecy. I know that I have been HURT TO THE BOTTOM OF MY SOUL!! I call that being unfaithful to one's spouse. Romantic or not!

Blessings,
Tarehurts

I don't mean to sound like an idiot...really...

So...here's the facts:
1. inappropriate relationship against my wishes
2. Lying and deceit
3. deeper level of lying and deceit

here's also what I know:
1. Emotional affair with romantic love: definately bad and should not be tolerated
2. Inappropriate relationship without any type 'love': definately bad and should not be tolerated

Here's what I don't know:
1. Was it romantic? Was it a one sided romantic on his part? or
2. Was it not?

Now...Say it was a romantic relationship, I am doing the right thing.

Say it was not a romantic relationship, but still wrong and unfaithful.

Am I causing myself harm by believing it was "all that and more" and accusing him of having a PA with a minor? I really don't know that at all.

What I know is bad enough and its not OK..but will I make it worse by going down that road? Especially if he takes action to correct it and we start to rebuild?

what road???? you believe he felt something and to him it was nothing? is that what we are stuck on here? (its early here so im a bit confused..lol) does it really matter? is that what the counselor is trying to say. maybe he is trying to nicely tell you...is it more important for you to be right or married type of thing?

and if it was romantic will that be the breaking point for you to give up or not?

Well my exWS started out trying to help a young woman...who was a recovering alcoholic..at his AA meetings. She had such a "rough start in life". He said "This young lady talked about how she never knew where she was going to live as a child...was shunted from one place to another...etc. I've never met someone who had so little." My exWS was 47 and the young woman was 21...the same age as his oldest child.

I do believe that it started out innocently enough. My exWS often helped individuals out that were new to Recovery. But it didn't stay that way. She would start calling our house and asking for my ex. I didn't say too much initially figuring it was AA related...not my business. I finally said "AA talks about how men are suppose to counsel men and women are to counsel women. You know that. Why are you the one helping her?" He said that he was helping her deal with her alcoholic fiance. I suggested she attend Al-anon like the rest of us with addicted family members.

A few months down the road...my ex announces, out of the blue, that he has rented a house and is moving out. He was moving her in with him. It "wasn't a sexual thing". He had just "promised to help her with a roof over her head."

He did agree to go into marriage counseling and asked to move back home with me within a month's time. We continued with counseling. At one point our MC suggested that I approach our relationship from a point of "greater trust". She suggested that I work on seeing that there could be alternate, legitimate reasons for my ex's time away from home. (Supposedly he had taken on a second job. He was gone all night. No extra income ever came in from that job!)

Things got worse and worse between us as he spent more time away from home. He denied he was having an affair. Several months later I confirmed that he was having an affair. The OW was the 21 year old. She was 7 months pregnant with his child. I looked back and figured out that she must have gotten pregnant about the time our MC suggested I start trusting my spouse more! My ex noted that this was the time when their relationship turned physical/sexual.

In looking back, I was upset that I didn't trust my gut instincts rather than listen to our MC's suggestion to work on trusting my exWS more. But, I was trying to be open to new thoughts and ideas. Even our MC seemed to be taken by surprise when the affair was confirmed. Obviously my exWS made the choice to turn a "helping relationship"..emotional support..into a sexual affair. The OW was apparently eager for it to go in that direction.

In looking back, my exWS talks about how he just allowed himself to get sucked further and further into this young woman's problems. He then started feeling guilty when he tried to set limits with her. This would be typical of his personality. The OW got more and more seductive towards him. And it became a real ego boost for him.

If nothing else, your spouse should have respect for your thoughts and feelings. Can he at least understand, acknowledge, how you could see things this way? Can he at least see how things could have turned sexual..even if a remote possibility? I would have never thought that my exWS would have ever had an affair. He never thought he would have an affair. It happens...even if things start out innocently enough.

My exWS and the OW now have a 3 year old son with Down Syndrome. For something that "would never happen", there is a whole lot of pain and a lifetime of responsibility. Feel free to share this story with your spouse...although he'll probably think it would never happen with him.

I have no answers for you, but just wanted to support you in your concerns about where this relationship could lead. In my opinion, you are NOT making a big deal out of nothing. There are a lot of little "somethings" that leave a lot of room for doubt. Your feelings should be a big SOMETHING for your spouse, if for no other reason than he loves you and is committed to your marriage.

It is an EA at the very least which is more dangerous than a PA.

If he can't let go of his KISA need, then it is dangerous. He is playing with fire and if it is with a minor, he has just broken the law.

L.

Orchid, I think I know why an EA is more dangerous than a PA, but can you share with me why?

Also, what is a KISA?

I laid out all my concerns from big to little in a letter on Wednesday when he left for a trip. I'm getting nervous waiting for his return. I wonder what he will think of my perspective?

Orchid: EA is more intense and can be hung onto even without physical contact. In fact with limited or no physical contact the EA strengthens because of the fantasy aspect of the A. Think of it similar to courting. Until you actually live together, you always assume it w/b better than it turns out t/b. Take that thought and multiple it by 100 for the EA. At the WS disposal are all the benefits of his family lifestyle. The WS takes over the spouses' body, mind and heart, then proceedes to use the spouses' things as if it were their own. In some cases it even spills over into the WS using the family's things (necessary and luxury items) for the benefit of the A. That is fueled by the EA.



Orchid: 'Knight in shining armor' syndrome.



Orchid: What did you lay out? Your boundaries? Plan B? Your letter s/b for what makes you feel safe. Feeling nervous is normal. As you fight for the need to feel safe vs. trying to save or fix your M (which you can't with a WS on the loose), then you w/b in better control and less anxious or nervous. Why? Because you wont' need to care how the WS will react, you are doing it for your needs not the WS' need.

L.

Basically, the letter's first half was what me and the counselor went over (WH is not yet going to MC with me) and what I am working on and dealing with personally, specifically. I am doing a LOT of personal work and its hard work.

The second half was laying out all my concerns about what would happen if the A continued, my confusion over his kind treatment of me since renewed contact one day 2 sundays ago, and letting him know if he wants me to move on (he actually wants me to drop it--impossible) that I will need for us to move on together. That means stop the R and send a NC letter and stick to it.

So, we shall see what happens. I know there are 3 choices.

1. acknowledge the A is over and we turn from it together
and hopefully begin reconciliation
2. will not drop the A and keeps contact
3. does not do anything at all <---------------this is what I don't know I will do about. and 2 and 3 can look awfully similar. I supposed that they are exactly the same.

I did not lay out boundaries except that the relationship was absolutely unacceptable and must stop immediately, and in order for me to move forward he needs to tell me if its over.

Privately the counselor and I agreed (my idea) that if it continued he must leave. I think that would be a no-brainer for any wayward idiot, that if they cheat on their spouse after being asked to stop they are risking their marriage.

I can always write more letters affirming my goals of self improvement that will also better the relationship, etc. etc. etc. I suppose it won't hurt to affirm that over and over.

I know I do vacillate between the two needs you mentioned. I hate feeling scared and needy, but on the other hand I'm working on my own stuff and also working on setting boundaries. I feel healthier and stronger than ever. But the new me is much younger and less sure than the old me, which did everything wrong and was scared and needy. Its a battle for sure. Actually I know that I'm working on seperating me from he and getting the lines redrawn. he may not like it and thats not my problem but I know its going to hurt like ****** if he doesn't go the way I hope.

And I now know setting boundaries is actually letting go of the outcome of whatever he happens to decide to do. Previously, I would try to control the outcome of what would happen by not setting a boundary. (*somebody should smack me for that*) thats hard work.

oh and besides telling me it is over he has to prove it and be honest and open as well.

the OW contacted me again. She sent me a lame message 'thanks for not texting me' my reply was 'leave me and my husband alone' and her reply is 'tell your husband to go f*** himself' and my reply to that was 'why, just what is your prob?'

no reply.

I wonder if she tried to also contact my H, he's out of cell reach until Sunday. (this is know is a fact) I think, if she is becoming agressive then she will need to feel the burn a bit, because if you play with fire you're going to get burned. If she wants to play with the big girls then she's going to have to deal with it like a big girl would.

It sounds like this OW needs adult guidance. Putting aside your personal grievance -- is there anyone you can contact, kindly, on her behalf? A parent, a school counselor, someone? Looks like she's a kid, and going to need help.

Maybe I'm wrong ... just a thought. She's acting like a kid.