Thanks Daisy. We have been separated for 4 months too. I think your husband and mine left around the same time (mine left the first week of May). I said 9 1/2 months, because that is how long H has been talking about divorce (even though he flipped several times and wanted to work on our M - he never really made the committment to it). However I slice it, it's been surely LONG enough for me.

Tomorrow evening I get to see DS3, which is a great thing.

Have you contacted a lawyer yet? Are you going to?

Milkshake,
No I am not contacting a lawyer now. My family and friends say I should but I am not ready. From the outside looking in it is easy to say "get a lawyer, NOW", but as you know it is not so easy when you are involved in it.

Unless H changes drastically, I am not holding my breath, I will be the one who will have to start the divorce process next year. Really, he just is not the type of person to get that done. It was one of the things that bothered me and I guess he saw me as a nag... whatever...

I will probably contact the lawyer when I am ready (don't see that happening any time soon).

I do feel like you and I have the same "timing". H was quite detached at times since early January, maybe even before that. 2x before he left he said "maybe we should seperate". I really wish I had listened more to that because I could have said lets get some MC, read some books, see what we can do. Instead I just felt hurt, and cried and we talked the way we always did and then he would change his mind, but things never changed for long.

But on the other hand, H does not believe R or M need work!!! It should just work on its own if the two people are compatible. Do you believe that? I mean, am I wrong in thinking that a M needs work even if you love each other?

Hang in there...
Daisy

Daisy,


No, even though I am no expert on R or M, I know it requires a tremendous amount of work. I only wish I knew that long time ago. I kind of felt similar to what your husband is saying - that as long as we love each other, even if we fight a lot, we will get back together and solve our issues in a natural way. I am now learning that is not true.

I have spoken to so many different couples, and am really learning this - that even though it may appear so, even those couples who seem to have no problems whatsoever are constantly working on their relationships. There is no such thing as "works on its own". Everyone, I repeat, EVERYONE has told me that marriage requires a lot of work. And I do believe it strongly now.

My husband has said the same thing about "compatibility". He said we are not compatible. Whatever - we are not pieces of software being tried on different computer! We are married, and just b/c we fought a lot during the course of 15 years (!!) don't just say "oh we are not compatible" and write it off! Especially when we clearly started to fight a lot more after our child was born - to me, it was obvious that we were very stressed out by having our first and did not care for each other for the past three years. So we learn from the experience and try to improve it, right? But H just wants to "move on with his life" to change everything completely. That is just running away!

I am just venting here - I won't say any of these to him, as we all know that WS's cannot be reasoned. Sigh...

My goodness, you have your heater on?? Just the thought makes me sweat....

Take care Daisy.

Exactly!

We had issues. I think the trouble was it was the 1st real R for me and 1st R for H since some highschool relationships. So I think we did not have much experience. At least I did not. I kept a lot to myself and H did as well. On top of it he has cronic depression so that has its own problems. I think the depression was getting bad since he said to me that nothing comes first but his health. I could not tell when he was feeling down because of me/us or because of his depression. He expected me to know what he was thinking!!! I am not a mind reader.

Anyway, I wish we could try again, communicate more, talk to each other more. But I guess it will not happen. Now, I feel as if I really should not discuss my deapest feelings with H.

Oh, I wish it was warmer here. I got the heater going otherwise it is just too cold here. I have had the heater on even in August on some days. And winter is still not here.

Thanks for writing to me...appreciate it.
Daisy

I just replied to your post but this is another similarity btw your and my cases. Although both H and I had dated before we started dating, we never really had any "serious" long-term relationships. I thought I had serious boyfriends before H, but looking back, it was like a puppy love thing. So H was my first long-term partner. It was same for H as well.

So there is also H's wanting to "taste" another women, whether it is b/c of his addiction, or simply b/c he never really experienced other women, the desire is there. H admits this and said to me that he has a very strong urge to sleep with another woman.

He feels that as long as we are together, he would have to "miss out" the opportunities if they arise. So he wants to be "free". That is a part of the reason H wants a divorce. Then he feels bad about it, b/c it really sounds so selfish, so he thinks "wait, if we are deeply in love, I should not be wanting another woman, so it must be me not in love with Milk anymore". H told me this theory. Also about being freaked out about having a second child - H said "if I truly loved you, I should not have hesitated for a second to have another child". This is another reason H thinks he has fallen out of love with me. Then I kept pushing (I know, it was pre MB days - I did everything WRONG) H, so he got annoyed and started to blame everything on me and now he feels he really wants to get rid of me.

I feel like I have finished a master course in psycology over the past 9 1/2 months <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> It sure is a lot of work to try to work out your marriage! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I don't believe this. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Having children should not be taken lightly. I think many people talk about it. It is a bid deal and no 2 people will feel exactly the same always. What he is saying just does not feel right.

I think H did get a freaked out about the whole children issue. In the last few months before he left he was talking about that maybe we should not have children because of his depression and the mental problems running in his family (both mother's and father's side). I was understanding. I think as he was feeling worse mentally he had these thoughts more and more. As I saw what he was going through I was not sure I wanted to have children that might have the same problems. I did not want to impose that on them. I wanted children, but I wanted them with him. It hurt to know that I might not have them, but I accepted it to be with him. But I think he did not really believe me. Or, since he thinks that one should not sacrafice anything in a M, maybe he thought I was sacraficing too much. Who knows.

One thing is for sure. Marriages take work. It does not come easy. I really feel H will have same problems in the next R he is in. I don't want that for him, but if he does not change his thinking he will. All my friends think he will regret leaving me. He may, but he will not come back.

He is a real mess right now. I feel as if I am in a better place then he is. I see him and the things he is doing are just so odd. But he says he is happy, who am I to argue. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Daisy

I agree, that was basically my response to H when he made the comment. Two people can be in madly in love with each other, but still they will consider IF and WHEN they should have children, as it is a big decision.

I have not asked if H is happy - a few weeks after H left, he sent me an email saying that he is also sad about the situation we are in, but at the same time he feels happy, happiness he hasn't felt in years. He said he is jogging and trying to be healthy. That time he said he is really afraid of saying "okay, let's get back together", and said he wanted us to remain friends.

It's been months since he made the comment. In recent months he just kept saying "I don't feel any connection with you. I don't have fun with you. I am already 37, I want to move on with my life".

On a slightly positive note, H called this morning again while he was driving to DS3's daycare. H just called to let me hear DS3's voice. I was happy for a small gesture like this, but trying not to get my hope up. This is the part that really sucks...., you want to enjoy any slightest positive events in your R if you still have it, yet you always have to tighten your belt and remind yourself to not get too excited.

You don't think H is playing a game here right? I hope not. At the same time, even in the past, whenever H had DS3, typically he called to let me hear DS3's voice, so this is nothing new - why am I getting so excited? I guess b/c we had the nasty fight on Saturday, even a simple phone call seems like an improvement.

But I've got to stop reacting to every little thing like this. As long as H says he wants to reconcile, I have to assume this is going to end in D. I know, I understand this in my head...., it is another story to really understand in my heart.

just praying for a miracle while trying to be strong and to have zero expectations...

I am learning that if one is in midlife crisis, it can take on average 2-5 years before he comes out of the fog. If that is going to happen.

I think H is an SA, suffering from depression, and in MLC. What a powerful combination....

A lot of people have suggested that I should just divorce H. It seems like that is how people on this board feel as well.

Continuing to live separately like we have been in the past 4 1/2 months will not help. If we are going to end up divorcing, then I would like to give a last resort shot at it. After all, I have nothing to lose, right?

So, I am thinking of agreeing to divorce. But instead of just calling him and ask him "okay, let's start the divorce procedure", I would like to tell him that I am settin him free. Then I will follow through. We will start talking about terms. I will no longer try to tell him I do not want a divorce. I know this is hard, and am not so sure if I could be that strong, but that is my idea right now.

But I know myself - I will not be able to tell him everything I want to say b/c I will get emotional - so I wrote this letter. Again, the basic message is H is a free man now. I just wrote it, and am not sure when I am going to give it to him, but first I wanted to ask seasoned people what you feel about the idea of telling H that he is free. And secondly, if that is a good idea, what do you think of my letter?

-----------------------
Dearest Ketchup,

This is a toughest letter I have ever written.

I have truly loved you more than anything and believed in our strong love. I have been through most agonizing moments I ever experienced in life since you said you would like to end our marriage. My love for you is so deep that I simply could not imagine my life without you.

We were the first serious partner for each other and we learned and experienced so many “first” things together. We grew up together in a sense, and I loved that we could talk about how “kids” we were when we first met. One thing I have always been proud of about our relationship was it is pure. Like you said many times in the past, it was a puppy love and we were just innocently and purely in love. We enjoyed the same food, traveling, culture, dogs, jokes, many things in life, and we were just comfortable with each other. We also have accomplished a lot together, supporting each other and I am very proud of that. You and I have come a long way and become soul mates. Ketchup, you and I had some very wonderful times together.

As you have pointed out, yes, we did fight a lot, and our marriage was by no means perfect. I am particularly very sorry for not understanding your emotional needs and what you were going through. I always thought by fighting we were letting out our emotions and it was healthy. I am sorry we were not on the same page on this. If I could go back and change some of the hurtful arguments or comments, I would Ketchup. I am sorry I cannot do that. But I have learned a lot and truly feel that now I am equipped with more wisdom that I needed in handling those confrontational situations in the past.

Finding out about your marijuana addiction and sex addiction was extremely hard. I could not comprehend at first, as you remember. Finding your love letter to XXX many years ago and again finding your letter to YYY last fall tortured me. And you made a comment that every time you were changing your jobs, you were always in “love” with someone else and that is how you were handling your stress in the hindsight. These comments just haunted me and I had many sleepless nights. I did not know what else to trust.

However, I have forgiven you. We cannot change the past. I would like to focus on what we can do from this point on.

I realized that I have been trying to hold you against your will. You made the decision – you want out of the marriage. You believe you will be happier alone, and I have to let you go. It’s been extremely painful for me and DS3, I have to admit, but we are going to make it. We have survived thus far and we will survive again. You are free to go.

Ketchup, you were my first true love and you will always have a special place in my heart. I will never forget the memories that we shared. I will pray for you and know that you will overcome your addictions and find peace.

Love,
Milk

any suggestions will be appreciated..!!

PLEASE DONT SEND THAT EMAIL...
(I'll add more shortly!)

There is nothing that he doesnt know in your message.

You're expecting it to reach his heart. His heart is hidden somewhere very deep. This isnt an issue of EN's or even an OP... he's got serious problems that cannot be addressed by a love letter.

It will fall on deaf ears, and you'll be very upset when he either doesnt respond, or responds poorly. You're setting yourself up, here. You were right, you have to stop reacting to every little thing. I know it's hard.

You've got to focus on something else, now and again. Worrying about him isnt helping. If anything, I'd start looking very busy and interested in other things when he's around. Dont look like you're pining away for him. He thinks you are, and doesnt find it attractive.

Please be careful and take care - Dru

I agree with Dru, he can't "hear" it right now.

If it were me, now, and not when I was feeling much like you it would be.

I love you.
I married you for life.
I can't hold you.
If it has to be goodbye, well then goodbye.

T

Thank you Dru and Confused. I am trying to keep myself busy regardless, but I really do not know how to "not think about him and our situation constantly" and "not analyze every little thing he says and does". I have to fight it and so far am not doing a very good job.

So what is is that makes a difference btw those cases where WS says he does not love his wife anymore and wants a divorce but a letter like this (like a Plan B letter) might be able to bring him back? Is it b/c my H is already living by himself for so long that this strategy won't work for me? Or is it b/c he does not have (assuming) OP? Or is it b/c it looks like he is going through a MLC with SA and depression?

I was reading a bit of sv1's posts yesterday but her thread is like a year long, so obviously I could not get through it. But I was thinking if her case is similar to mine.

Steve Harley says to people if your spouse fell in love with you, he/she can again be in love with you, but in my case it really looks like H has fallen out of love with me and I do not know if he will ever be able to be in love with me again, since he seems to have this "urge" to start his new life before he gets too old.

I know I said myself that I have to have zero expecations, but I really do not know what I am doing and what I should expect out of this.

H called to talk to DS3 and I did not even say a word to him. I just gave the phone to my son before I pressed "talk" button. H did not even ask for me (he never does) and talked to DS3 for while and hung up.

I am just so lonely. Even if I try very hard to portrait H as a most horrible person in the world, I don't think I can do that, as I do remember good things about him. How can he really do this to me? And justify everything he is doing without a bit of regret or guilt? How does he do that? I don't understand.

{{{{Milkshake}}}}


I asked the same questions before, there are no answers. I think it might help you to look at the book "rebuilding, when your relationship ends". Just look at it in a bookstore...and see if it could help...
It is good for me.

H and I have been talking lately, no R talk, just general stuff. It would be so easy to get my hopes up, but I try not to. I say try, because it is hard for me too. I am in a better place then I was just a month ago, but there are still days when I seem to make couple of steps back.

Anyway, I know you feel lonely, but milk, you really need to do something for yourself, to get stronger. It will take time. You are there for your son, but are you there for yourself? Do you go out and do something? Go see a movie? Think about starting a new hobby. I started jewellry making... and I go hiking. Get out there, even if that means just sitting at Starbucks driking coffee and reading a book or magazine...You should get out and do something, try to get your life back...Do it when your H has your son. Do something only for you.

I wish there was something I could say to make you feel better, but I cannot. I really don't understand why your H left...Some of the things you say H said sound like "fog" talk, but if there is no A, it is difficult to judge what it is exactly. I am in the same boat so I understand...

Do you have your son this weekend? Do you think you are handeling the situation better then four months ago, or is it about the same?

Daisy

Milkshake,

U r getting your H's id mixed up with the WS id. Your WS can and is doing the most horrible things to you right now and not feeling any regret. Your H on the other hand w/b mortified.

Understand now? Ok, if you do what do you think you should do?

L.

Thanks Daisy and Orchid.

Daisy, you asked me if I am in a better place than 4 months ago. That is an excelleng question, and I wish I could say "absolutely!" without a moment of hesitation, but I can't. If I look back 9 months ago, I was crying every single minute. I really did not think I could live without him. Now at least I do not cry every day, so maybe I am making a baby step forward. But I do not feel any stronger by any means. I guess I don't cry as often (although I still do, especially when I do not have DS3 around), simply b/c I know crying will not bring H back. Even to truly understand this obvious fact took me 9 months. I can't imagine how many more months or years I need to get over the fact H does not love me anymore and my dear son will have to grow up without his father in the same house. I don't think I can ever get over that.

Orchid, I know you have been on this board long enough to have seen many different cases. What do you think I should do at this point? It appears people seem to think I should just get divorced. I am trying to imagine how I would feel after I do that. On one hand, I may feel relieved just a bit, b/c there would be no ambiguity and I will be forced to move on. But I KNOW, that I would feel tremendously lonely and sad and scared and betrayed and failed.... I know I should not file for divorce in the hope of getting a sense of closure. I have to be ready for it. But then again, I don't think I will ever be ready. In the mean time, I am so scared that H will become even meaner and really will not care about me at all. Kind of the fight we had the other day, and H could simply say to me "you will never be able to leave this country with DS3 even on vacation!". That is what he said when he was mad. I know he said that b/c he was mad, and as of now, he still does not want to be a jerk like that. But before he was saying that he would give me an option of returning to my home country with DS3 if I want to, as H himself came from Europe and understands how hard it is to be away from your culture and family and friends. But now he says he would permit me to go outside of this country only if we are on vacation, but he does not want me to live outside of this country.

Things can change, as his heart gets more detached from me. I am afraid of that as well.

Also, if we get divorced now and suppose he will not meet this dream woman and his life will not be as much fun as he thought it would be, he may feel bad and come back? Maybe? But if we hang in this limbo stage, he may not feel the need to come back to me, as we are being simply a pain in the neck to him?

I don't know why I still want him back. I wish I could hate him.

Milkshake,

Not crying every day can be a good sign. You say you don't cry because that will not bring your H back. I think that is a good realization. It is a small step, but I think it is a step nevertheless. I know you don't want it to end and you are having a hard time seeing a life without him. Your H is saying a lot of mean things, and saying he does not love you anymore must be hard. My H never said that so I don't know how I would feel if he did, but you know, no matter if they still love you or not, it is hard. For me, I know he still loves me. It is hard to know that I love him, he loves me, but he does not want to be my H. I feel like he wants to be my boyfriend. It hurts to know he does not want to live with me, but still wants me around ON HIS CLOCK! When he gets enough of me he pushes me away and then comes back when he misses me again. It is a push-pull relationship with him that is quite painful. It is easy to have hope just to be crushed again. I felt better when he was not in my life for 2 weeks when he was in CA.

Anyway, I know you will pull through. Now you are saying you don't think you can ever be ready for divorce and moving on. You will one day. The pain and some of the betrayal may not leave you completely but you will move on with your life (if you cannot fix this). We always have some hope that things will work out and we will be able to fix the M and that is ok...I am noticing I don't hold on to that hope as much. I am not in control of everything. If I was, we would be in MC right now. But I am not, so I am just taking care of me and trying to enjoy the little things...

By the way, if you don't mind me asking where are you from in Europe. I am from czech republic...

Daisy

Thanks Daisy. When I feel H has a lot of personal issues and mental issues/weakness, I can feel I might be better off w/o him and I will be able to get through this. But when I remember how sweet he was, then I get really weak immediately...

I am from Japan and my husband is from Italy. Being in a foreign country where you do not have any family members is very tough. H has his parents, sisters and brother. Only one of his sisters is still in Italy, so it is easier for him. Also he went to college here, whereas I went most of my schooling (except for my grad school, but it's different - you don't really go there to make "friends") in Japan, so all of my family and close friends are there. That's tough.

By the way, this coming Sunday is our 12th anniversary. Should I send him a card?