Hi Milk,

Yes, IF you two had an agreement that included 'Right of Refusal', THEN I could see why he'd be worried. But you dont, so he can go pound sand. Again, is he set up to care for a 3yo?

And no, just because he's learning some legal terms doesnt mean he's going to get everything he wants (silly girl <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> ). That's why you have a lawyer. Again, I'd be VERY SPECIFIC with the lawyer about your H's addictions, and about exactly what kind of visitation YOU WANT. Lay out your wants 100% to the lawyer, then expect to compromise a little. But dont hold out in the beginning, because 1) you're not being honest, and 2) you may have to compromise.


It's good that other people see what he is doing, and are validating you. I knew your H was off his rocker - I can see it from here, others much closer agree. You are the unfortunate victim of a man with low character. He hid it well, but he's 'out' now. It's happened to alot of people, people here who's WS's turned into completely different people. I dont know why, but it apparently happens. It happened to me, too, and I always considered myself a crackerjack (shoot me, ok?).

And about 'What will it Take', I'll tell you - my mother is still blaming all of her problems on her parents who were both mentally ill, AND have been dead for 15 years. I mean like her problems today, like her plants dying. She expects me to have compassion for her (she was a terrible mother) because she was 'mentally ill', but she'll tell any stranger that she meets that her mother hated her.

Some people never grow up. You sound very grown up, you should be very proud of yourself. You are an easy scapegoat for him, he may blame you forever. Accept this, cry, get it out of your system, then stop worrying about it. There really isnt anything you can do.

Remember, picture a 15yo girl w/pms freaking out. Would you take her seriously if she screamed she hated you? I understand that happens fairly often <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. Roll your eyes, think "He's insane", and stop worrying about it. Seems many people, even his parents know he's wrong to blame you. He's made 100 bad choices, and one of them is blaming you. Dont worry about this anymore than the other 99 bad choices he's making, OK??

It's all horrible but you will survive. I'd be very upset, too. You have every right to be, and you shouldnt worry that you are. You will be happy again. Ever read Peachy's post about her horrible exH, Jethro, and the OW, she calls Family Values (who got preggers by Jethro while married to Peachy)? If you read what that woman went through, you're jaw would drop. I watched it here, over the last several years. Her H is already divorcing FV, the woman he left her for. He's still miserable, and probably still blaming Peachy (my guess). Peachy, however, is enjoying her life and her DS. She's happy again, he's still miserable. You will be happy again.

Two books I love: How to Stubbornly Refuse to Make Yourself Miserable about Anything, Yes Anything, by Albert Ellis, and How to Stop Worrying and Start Living, by Dale Carnegie. They help me calm myself when I get too worked up. You might give them a try. Please take care - Dru

Thanks Dru.

H has DS3 every other weekend for two nights, so I guess his place is set up reasonably for a 3yo. I have never been to his place so I can't say for sure, but I know H has bought some toys and books for DS3.

I just received an email from H.

"MILK

I didn’t know you were gone to New York. You know I mentioned to you in the past and will mention it to you again now I want to take care of DS3 more often than what has occurred.

Especially when you go to New York I can look after him.

H"

From the tone of this email, I could tell he is pretty upset. I have been trying to deposit love units, and thought I might have a bit by caring for him when he was sick, giving him some space, not talking about our relationship, and showing up with DS3 unannounced on his birthday. But each time, something else that is considered negative to H happens and that completely wiped off tiny deposits made.

While I was typing this, my phone rang twice and I know it is from H. Should I respond to his email? What should I say?

How should I handle this?

I sent back an email to H. Will see how it goes...

I got a response from H. He is furious.

"MILK - listen - don't cut me out of any decision for DS3 - I am his dad and I have a right to take care of him too. Please ask me next time you go to New York if I can take care of him or if you would like my mom and dad to take care of him occasionally that's fine but ask me first. I am his daddy!!!"

But...., then why he is not even paying for his doctor's bills?

I simply replied to H's email by saying

"I am sorry you felt that way. I will ask next time".

There is a whole a lot more I wanted to tell him but I decided not to.

This is what we get.... after 15 years together???

H sent a short email - "Thanks".

So was my response good? Basically as long as I am giving him whatever he wants, he is happy! But I do not want to divorce, yet he wants it.... which means if I divorce him, he will be super happy!!!!????

Milkshake,
I don't have kids so I really don't want to bud in here but some things stand out.

It sounds like he is worried about not being in his sons life. I am sure you can understand that.

But he is there ON HIS TERMS ONLY. That is what it sounds like to me. Sure he offers to take care of him, but what about financial support. I don't know the details of your arrangement. It sounds to me like you are still AFRAID that what you do will turn him away from you. Milk, he left you. YOu and I don't know if he is coming back, but the fact is:
He left.
He is not supporting you financially (not much, 20% you said?)
He comes and goes as he pleases.
He calls your son and DEMANDS you to be there ready to pick up the phone! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />!
If you don't pick up he gets angry.

He has a right to see his son (I do believe that).

But you need to put your foot down. I think you are still reacting in fear. YOu are afraid to push him farther away, but in the process you do what he wants, and get strung along the way he wants...

I really don't know if you should have given him your son for that day or not.

My suggestion:
Next doctors bill comes along send this email to H:
"H
I took DS3 to the doctors yesterday. The bill is xx$. I would appreciate you sending me a check for half.

Milk"

He likes that he has control. He is mad. What about you? How do you feel?

I have to be honest with you Milk. I hate that my H left. But on the other hand, I feel that if we do not have the right to leave a R if we are not happy then we are slaves to that R. So, I do feel H had the right to leave. BUT he did not have the right to treat me like crup the last 4 months just because I still wanted to work on it. He did not have the right to use me (financially, emotionally, etc). He has a right to leave, BUT face the consequances of your actions!
The same with your H. He had a right to leave (I am sorry, I know it hurts <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />) BUT he has to face the consequances of his actions. We are in pain and the way we act in pain makes it easy for them to be "happy without us". In your case your H is not taking responsability ONLY when it is convinient for him. WHy is he not there to drop off your son at school? WHY??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> Send him an email. Demand he drops him of at least 2x a week. What are you scared off?

I read something the other day. It said the worse think you can do during a divorce process is be NICE in hopes that the other person sees what a nice person you are being and comes back. It will not work. Take a stand. That does not mean you are vengeful. It means you a being smart. You should not be taking care of your son by yourself.

Ok, so you are not getting D yet, but you (I mean the 2 of you) are not working on the M either. So, stand up to him. Don't be mean, just be fair. Demand fairness from him.

BTW, as I said I don't have kids, so you can tell me if I am way off, I am just trying to be helpful...

DAisy

I think that was great! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Dont worry about anything, get your lawyer going so all this can get clearly written out, so there's no debate. This will prevent future conflicts.

Yes, this is all you are going to get, apparently. I'm sorry. I cant imagine anything you could do to deposit LU's with an addict. Look how upset he is. Please dont try, he's draining YOUR LB by leaps and bounds. You'll hate him in a month at this rate. Anyway you can have him go through your in-laws?

Everytime you deal or hear from him, even 2nd hand, it drags you down. You'll do better when you can keep this in the front of your mind and look at him like that crazy teen. They like to use Alien here, but your H is acting like a angry teen... needs a spanking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You are doing great. Keep busy, keep distant from him, think about activities that help build your future life. Please take care - Dru

First, thanks for your support Daisy and Dru.

H and I had a big argument today. I know, argument does not yield anything and should be avoided at any cost. But it happened. I asked H to mow our lawn when he comes to pick up DS3, as it's been two weeks since last time he did it. He promised he would come and take care of the yard when he moved out. H wasn't all that happy and said would do it next week, but I have a plan next week so asked him if he could just do the shaded area where the grass it taller. He said okay. Then he asked me if he could do his laundry at my place. I said okay.

Then after I hang up the phone, I got mad. What is it, he is trying to save $1 or $2 to do his laundry? He is that cheap now?? He may think this is an exchange deal for his labor, but he hasn't even paid for some of his own expenses!

So I called back and asked him to bring his checkbook so that he could cut me a check for his personal expenses for the past two months (1/2 of our mutual cell phone bills, his internet service charges for two months, his rental video membership fee) that I have already paid for.

Then (of course) he got mad. He said he does not have money and I am trying to squeeze every single penny out of him! I told him "if that was the case, I certainly would not have been here paying mortgage and DS3's daycare expenses and other costs all by myself for the past 5 months!"

But he was too upset to listen. He threatened me "I will take this to a court, and I will make sure you can never leave this country!"

I was too mad to think logically or remember LB concepts... I said "you are threatening me. If you think I am going to just sit here and believe whatever you are telling me, you are wrong. And if you think you can do whatever it takes to make me miserable without facing any consequences, you are wrong!"

So our argument escalated. Then he said something like "and REDCAT (my friend who is like a God father to DS3) pissed me off too, when he said he does not like blonde at the party". What does he mean by "too"? What does it have to do with me???

H "My mom is blonde and my biological mother was blonde too, he'd better watch out what he says in public"
ME "I don't think your mom was offended. She said she really likes him".
H "See, you always argue back! Stop it!"
ME "But why didn't you tell HIM directly - why are you yelling me about it?"
H "Because he is your friend!"

My goodness.... so now that's also my fault? I have no control over my friends' comments!

Then he yelled "oh sh**! I forgot my checkbook, great!"
ME "you can go back, you haven't gone that far, it's okay"
H "NO! It pisses me off, b/c I already left my apartment! See, MILK, you always do this to me. You distract me and make me forget things!"

Oh my..., now this is apparently my fault too...

Then he said "no, it's my fault, I know". But it did not sound like he was being apologitic. I think he was just telling himself. My guess is that he does this often in front of his therapist and maybe his counselor might be telling him to stop blaming ME all the time... I am not sure.

Then he said something about me being resentful and not being forgiving. So I broke down..., I know I should not have shown weakness, but could not help it. I cried and said "that is not true. I HAVE forgiven you. Otherwise I wouldn't be here. If you think I want you back and live the way we did before, that is not true. I don't want you to be miserable. I want you to be happy. I want us to be happy. I know I have made some mistakes in the past. If I could go back and change things, I would, but I can't. I did forgive you for what you did. You are the one who is not forgiving me".

He did not respond to that and said "well, anyway, I will be there shortly". So I did not pursue and said "okay, I will see you".

H showed up later, cut the grass, came in and took shower. Then he did his laundry. While he was waiting for his laundry to be done, he was sitting in the family room and playing with DS3. Then DS3 started to look really tired. So I suggested "if you want, I can cook while DS3 is asleep and by the time it's done he can wake up and we can have dinner. Then all you have to do is to give him a bath at your place tonight"

H hesitated for a second but said "okay, that's fine". And he also said "while DS3 is sleeping, I am going to take a nap too". Then two of them took a nap for a while.

I cooked several dishes, and when it was almost done, H came over and asked "smells good - did you put in garlic?", and I realized I have forgotten about it. I was out of garlic. Then H said "okay, I will go get some", and went out. He came back and we finished cooking, and ate together. It was strange to see us all at the table. DS3 was certainly very happy, and kept holding both mine and H's hands. Seeing him beling so happy in between us truly broke my heart.

H said thanks for the dinner, and left at about 9:20. H asked me if I have replaced the filter for the furnace. I said no, and H went down to the basement to replace it. H told me especially during the winter time, I would need to replace it fairly often. So that means he is definitely planning on not being around during the winter time - the thought made me sad.

But I must say it was kind of nice to have dinner together after so many months. Especially after we had such ugly argument about divorce and how we would fight in court - it was nice that we ended the day on a friendly term.

Hi Milkshake,

Don't beat yourself up because of the argument. You know you need to try harder next time. Try not to engage in these conversations. He is trying to blame you and you know very well it is not your fault. He left he needs to face the consequances.

I would not worry about him "taking you to court". What does he think he will do there? He left, he hardtly pays you anything, he does not take care of your son the way you do, he comes as he pleases. You have agreed to let him see his son, you are the reasonable one!!! Again, you know you can go to get a lawyer when the time comes and protect yourself. Don't listen to his BS.

I think you might want to consider doing a 180. I don't know if plan A would really work for you here, because it sounds like being nice might just lead to you feeling used. I know it is hard to do, but he may notice. And if he does not, it may help you move on...

I would seriosly consider not letting him do his laudry there. It is not about money, trust me. It is simply about comfort. It is easy to ask you and just do it there. But that is just another way that he is NOT facing consequances.

But if you want him to do his laundry there, then leave the house. Leave a note, saying you are at the park. Don't just sit there and wait for him to get there...
Really, you need to have your own life. I know he is coming over to pick up your son, but if he is doing the laudry and cutting the grass then you DON'T need to sit there waiting. You can leave a note that you will be back soon...

I think it is good to have some dinner times together. Even if your M cannot be fixed, it is good for your son to see his parents together. You don't want him to grow up knowing his parents hate each other...

I spoke to a friend the other day and told her about my concerns regarding talking to H now. She said, do what feels comfortable, but keep on moving with your life. If you want to talk to him do, just don't get your hopes up. So I have been talking to him. He was calling me and yesterday I called him for the first time in 10 days. We had a brief talk. As soon as the conversations dragged, I said "well I got to get back to my movie". Before I would just start to talk just to keep him on the line. Now, I don't want to. If he has nothing to say I will not keep the conversation going just because...
2 minutes later he calls, and asks me if I would like to go see a movie with him. I said ok. I planned to see the movie anyway. I really have no hope for my marriage to work out (ok, I have very very very little hope). I am moving on, but it is still nice to have some contact. But my IC told me contact is fine, as long as it does not interfere with your ability to move on as you want. I agree. If I find that seeing him and talking to him again draggs me back to the yoyo stage, I will stop all contact. I just cannot go back to that again...

Anyway, what I am saying is, it is good to have some contact as long as it is not hurting you...

Hugs.
Daisy

Thanks Daisy, and I am happy to hear that your H asked you out! I know you do not want to keep your hope up, but how do you do that? Isn't it hard to not expect anything but keep acting pleasant and moving on?

I am discovering more and more about myself - that I am REALLY weak! How could that be? I never thought I was dependent on H emotionally.... Even just to pretend like am moving on, is hard!

Thanks Daisy for sharing your experience. I need constant reminder, as I get scared really easily....

I wanted to call H to check on DS3 but managed not to. Not that it is going to help rebuild our marriage, but I really need to learn how to be tough.

Although, I get confused many times, as I have always been the tough one in our R. The ole MILK would have said "no, do your own laundry at your place, you do not live here anymore!". Then H would probably think "see, she is a bi***, that is why I am leaving her". Then again I have been acting like a pushover for the past 9 1/2 months, since H said he wants out, so I am not sure if I should be doing 180 from the way I have been acting for the past 9 1/2 months, or 180 from the way I used to act before all of these crazy things happened? Not sure.

Although I have noticed if I am being firm, but not in a nasty/mean way, I tend to get the result I want, so I will try to continue doing so. When I am being all emotional and clingy, H gets annoyed. When I get mad and become confrontational, H gets mad. So I need to be sort of in between. That is pretty hard!!!

Thank you for being there for me. Your support means a lot.

H just called but I let the machine answer.

H is in a good mood, I could tell, b/c he spent the day with DS3.

H said "hi MILK, this is Ketchup and DS3. I took him to swimming at XXX's (his buddy from college), and we had dinner there too. Now we are going back to my apartment, I will give him a bath and brush his teeth. DS3, say hi to Mama. - <DS3: Hi Mama>, DS3, say I love you Mama - <DS3: love you Mama>, DS3, say I will see you tomorrow Mama - <DS3: see you tomorrow Mama>. DS3 is pretty tired, but he wants to see a movie so I will let him watch a movie a bit but will go to bed early. Okay, take care MILK".

Considering the ugly argument we had yesterday, this was a very pleasant message.

I know, it does not mean anything and I cannot get my hope up high. Also, who knows, H may be playing a game so that I won't get nasty about D and he can get what he wants. I really do not know what to believe at this point. I want to believe H would not play such game, but he was the last person to leave his family too, so I am really not confident about my gut feeling anymore....

Still, if H truly hates me, he would not have left me such message, right? Guess that is already a bonus for me at this point...

hey milk

haven't posted here in awhile

are things a little better?

Hi Eav,

Well things have been rocky. I am not sure if you have been following, but H contacted a mediator but nothing has happened so far, maybe b/c I told him I would not split the cost as H is the one who wants a divorce and also I have so many expenses and cannot simply afford to pay half.

Then DS3's birthdya party came. During that week, for some reason H called almost everyday for DS3. Then at the party, H felt DS3 might be replacing him with other guy and H is now trying really hard to keep reminding DS3 that he is DS3's daddy.

Then last Wednesday H got really mad as I asked my in-laws to watch DS3 instead of H. Since H works, I thought it would be nice for DS3 to be able to stay home with his grandpa and grandma, but H was really mad. On Friday I received a very mad email from H and simply replied to that by saying "I am sorry you felt that way. I will ask you next time". Then he said "Thanks". This might be similar to your H's story I remember - that one time when you told him that your neighbor will watch one of your dogs - your husband got offended.

Anyway then yesterday before H was coming over, we were talking on the phone and we got in a huge nasty argument. H was basically threatening me by saying "you can never leave this country ever again!". I lost control myself as well and argued back. It was pretty ugly. Then I tried to back off, we sort of finished yelling at each other, and H came over. We ended up having a dinner together at my place, as DS3 fell asleep while H was doing his laundry at my place.

H replaced my furnace's filter, maybe in an attempt to be civil. Or maybe H felt bad b/c he is so determined to do D and realized that I am still hanging in there. Who knows.

But then like I mentioned, H just called to let me know how DS3 was doing. It was nice.

I am supposed to get back to my lawyer this week. I will see how things develop, but really do not think anything would change at this point unfortunately - even though H leaves me a rather loving message like the one he just left - I don't think it means anything. H said yesterday when we were arguing "I never left DS3. I only left YOU". How lovely. So that is the mindset he has. H let me know how DS3 is doing, as he is my son too but does not want to actually raise him with ME!

Still, I am trying to see the positive - at least he is trying to be civil, which is good I guess... When I said to him yesterday "you want me to be miserable" he said "no MILK, I don't want you to be miserable". I really hope he means that!

Hey Milkshake,

Ask the Ws what he means by that statement. Then remind him that you and your son are a single package deal. After all he came from your womb. Yea...that's more WS babble. Think just because the umbelical cord is cut, the child c/b separated from the parent. Only in the A world is that possible.

Mine said simlar. Our son was 6 at the time. I told the WS, we are a family.....son & I go together. So much for the OW telling him son w/b ok w/o him. Now that piece of reality hit him threw the fog and he told the OW, nothing was going to come between him and his son. LOL!!! Now that's from the mouth a conflict avoiding father who didn't interact much with his own son. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

L.

Hi Orchid, nice to hear from you. You are so right, DS3 and I are a package deal. But I know what H may say back to that - he would say "DS3 is my son too". True, but he left. Then he would say "no, I only left YOU"..., well this is not going anywhere, is it???

How funny, when people are in this situation, we argue like 2-year-olds. "It's mine!" "No it's mine!"....

How dare for the OW to say your son will be okay without his father!! I would smack her!!! ...so..., did your husband come back to you when he felt he might be losing his son?

Orchid: D/d Nov 2000. That comment came sometime in Feb 2001. The last and real recovery didn't start until August 2003.

Scary ain't it? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> But survivable. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

L.

oh... i am really not sure if i have the strength to wait that long.... it's been 9 1/2 months and it has been long enough, tearing my heart apart every day....

Milk,
I so relate. I have been seperated for 4 months and I really cannot handle the pain anymore. I feel as if moving on is the best survival strategy. But then on a day like today I realize just how much I am still emotionally conected and just how much I am hurting.

We had such a nice day, then he had to mess it up for me. Now I am down again.

I cannot imagine waiting for H for 3 years to figure out what he wants. It would be like putting my life on hold. But who really knows what will happen for you and me.

Enjoy your time with DS3.

Daisy