SH,

You cannot change anyone but yourself.

Perhaps you should change your perception of their behavior. Or your perspective.

Dear LIT,

Thanks for your salient post.

The important corrolary to the fact that one person cannot change another, is that we should first look for ways in which we can change ourselves, to solve the perception of our problem.

I remain open to ideas for changing myself, to make the situation better.

You can ask someone to make a change. You can describe in detail the specifics of the change you are suggesting. You can outline easy steps to gradually implement the change with ease. You can offer visions of motivational rewards available from your suggested change. You can provide follow-up support for gradual behavior changes. You can provide extra incentives for incremental changes in behavior.

Habits, in some ways are the most difficult mannerisms to change. In other ways, habits are sitting targets for change.

There are very few threads mentioning NLP on this board. One aspect of NLP is self-improvement. Changing your own habit.

Another aspect of NLP is coaching others to change their habits. I told my wife this morning that I want to be her habit-changing coach for her to get to work earlier, so that she will not be as late as often. W seemed to accept my coaching role, and her accepting my coaching. Further, I dropped some $200 on NLP DVD's that I don't have POJA on. I need to work on getting some POJA on spending some money on habit changing coaching skills.

My habit changing coaching skills are not close to maximized. I intend to work on my habit improving coaching skills. Will you join me?

Ideas?

Senator,

As I have said, my response to you is based on what I see in your posts. I see control and manipulation. You continue to deny that and I don't see that I can be of much help to you at this point.

I would like to leave you with a few things to chew on.

1. Your new title now addresses what kind of help and information you are looking for. It is not about learning the skills of NLP to change yourself (which from my understanding NLP is learning better skills for self change and motivation of others towards change), it is about learning NLP to change your spouse. Again, people change when they want to change. Using techniques to change them IS manipulation.

I do think you would get alot further in your stated goal if you learned NLP to change yourself and used that to better understand those around you thus improving communication with them.

2. You're at MB so I would hope you have read and tried to understand the principles here. If you haven't read everything here or haven't read it in awhile I will give you a few links to look into (in no particular order).

Best,
Symphony

Instincts and habits

POJA


How to overcome annoying habits

Control

Control 2

Lovebusters

Disrespectful judgements

Four guidelines for successful negotiation

I also recommend the book, "Getting to YES" Fisher, Ury and Patton

Dear Symphony,

I will re-read the MB References for which you have posted Links. Thank you for the reference to a negotiating book.

This morning I offered to be a habit changing coach for my wife's getting to work more on time. She accepted. She is habitually late 5 minutes, silly as it may sound.

The terms you use, Manipulation and Control carry the conotation of dishonesty, coersion, Evil intent, and trickery. The definiton of Manipulation is quite broad. I am examining the ethical implications of how far I should go in applying behavior change principles to my wife. So if you would care to delineate how you feel I am being evil, sinister or dishonest in attempting to persuade my wife and college son to improve their bad habits, I would be intersted in your analysis.

Some organiztions are classified as Cults, because they utilize excessively devious methods of entrapment.

I am not conscious of a desire to ensnare my wife. If she wants out, I asked her, "How am I blocking you from accepting better opportunities?" That is my reality. If she has something better, I will step aside. But if we are going to live together for the rest of my life, then I want her to change some of her bad habits.

Some women may be offeneded by the notion of a husband saying, "Either you make progress on your bad habits, or I am out of here." I have not spoken those words to W, but that is the look I give her. I am using Tough Love, not Unconditional Love.

A further question, is, if I have to tighten the screws to get W to improve, should I trust her to not fall back, when I am in a weaker position? Should I trust her, even if she changes now?

I had not thought of NLP before I started this thread. So in Ranting and Responding to questions, NLP came up for me. I have looked for other NLP posts and threads. They are scarse. I have mentioned NLP in responses on other Forums, outside MB. I have read other MB threads where suggestions were made for NLP by other members. I, myself, have not posted a response to any MB thread recommending NLP. I am not currently thinking of posting NLP as an option for consideration on other MB threads. I understand and acknowledge your cautions about posting NLP ideas on the MB forum threads.

However, I feel that NLP fits into MB Principles, Particularly the Love Buster of Annoying Habits. NLP goes beyond the MB strategies for reduction of Annoying Habits. Do you see a conflict between NLP and MB Principles? Do you see NLP conflicting with MB? How?

I try to apply MB principles whenever I have an opportunity, as long as there is even a minimal chance of success.

You seem averse to understanding NLP concepts. Is there a reason you are blocking out NLP?

Ideas?

Suppose you are right handed. Your wife says to you that unless you change the annoying habit of writing with your right hand, she will leave. You tell her that you've written with your right hand since childhood and do not fully understand how that is annoying to her to the point of leaving. She informs you that you have two God given hands and both have the capability of writing.

In order to appease her, you write with your left hand and it is a struggle. Then you find yourself going back to your right hand when she's not around as it is easier and comes naturally to you.

Soon you come to resent her for requesting such a change after all it's your life. Why should you change for her? Why can't she just become accustomed to seeing you write with your right hand just as you have done for the many years of marriage?

Eventually she'll catch you writing with you right hand because your frustration will lead you to not be able to care any longer. Then both of you will be unhappy and back to square one.

Wouldn't it have been easier in the beginning to accept the differences in each others personalities instead of forcing one to conform against their will? Growth comes from learning to accept the other. That compromise has come to come from within-not forced on another.

Score keeping is another deadly activity for a marriage. Leave your poor wife and sone alone and look within. I feel sorry for them and truly wonder why they still share their lives with someone who is so horribly critical. As my father always said, "when you point your finger at another, three are pointed back at you." Examine yourself Senator and give your poor family a break for if you don't they come to resent you more than you can imagine. You'll find life alone will become more annoying than any bad habit either of them have.

Dear JPH,

Thank you for a model of a similar analogy, being left-handed.

Your advice to practice Unconditional Love is clearly stated.

Your Warning that appplying NLP carries the possibility of increasing Resentment, with the possible Outcome of Losing my Wife and Alienating my College son, as posible consequesncees of increased resentment.

I wish there was a Resentement Meter, that could measure actual resentments, so I could back off before reaching a point of no return.

You seem like a brave Soul. Are you willing to sort out NLP principles between Black and White?

Will you agree that discussing desired outcomes, and activites to reach the outcomes is on the White Side?

Thanks also for refraining from Make-Wrong remarks about me personally, such as "Pathetic," "Seriously Brain Damaged" or "Clueless."

Ideas?

throw the NLP principles between Black and White in the garbage.

Improve yourself. Be a loving husband and father. Be supportive of your families desires and dreams. Be an example of a man who can think on his own, set a good example, and quit talking as if you were a computer...only parrotting what you think makes you seem intellectually superior.

Be a supportive companion of your wife. Learn what's in her heart. Be company to her instead of not coming home because she annoys you. I'm sure just as many things about you annoy her as well.

Make your home a safe place, a place where everyone can be themselves and accepted as such. Enjoy your differences. If we were all the same how boring the world would be. Understand that you are not a god whose desires and demands are supreme and must be met at the cost of the happiness of your wife and son. That arrogance is cruel.

Since you enjoy research...try narcissism...

Dear JPH,

Thanks for your feedback.

Actually, your posts exemplify what I find objectionable in my wife. Your posts are from a make-wrong perspective. I have posted in the thread title that I am interested in developing habit improving coaching skills, based upon NLP or other resources. Your posts negate my intention.

Tell me about your significant other. Do you use the make-wrong approach to SO? I have read a few of your other posts, and you use the same make-wrong approach. I think that is a pervasive habit/approch for you.

Why don't you have your SO post on this thread, and I can work with your SO on deveoping habit coaching techniques, to change your and my Wife's make-wrong habits?

What about it?

Senator,





Huh? I haven't said a thing about NLP but you certainly have drawn some conclusions. I have read briefly about NLP when you mentioned it here at MB. From what I have read it looks like a very interesting concept and is based on Coaching and that is a concept I completely agree with. The aversion I have would be you using NLP to change your family rather than to try to understand them as individuals. Sorry, but that is the impression I am getting and based on other replies to you that seems to be the impression you are giving.

Again Senator you have put words in my mouth. I never implied that you were evil, sinister or dishonest in your approach. Read below the definitions of the words control and manipulation as per the Merrian-Webster dictionary.

CONTROL:
1 a archaic : to check, test, or verify by evidence or experiments b : to incorporate suitable controls in <a controlled experiment>

2 a : to exercise restraining or directing influence over : REGULATE b : to have power over : RULE c : to reduce the incidence or severity of especially to innocuous levels

REGULATE:

1 a : to govern or direct according to rule b (1) : to bring under the control of law or constituted authority (2) : to make regulations for or concerning

2 : to bring order, method, or uniformity to <regulate one's habits>
3 : to fix or adjust the time, amount, degree, or rate of

MANIPULATE:

1 : to treat or operate with the hands or by mechanical means especially in a skillful manner
2 a : to manage or utilize skillfully b : to control or play upon by artful, unfair, or insidious means especially to one's own advantage
3 : to change by artful or unfair means so as to serve one's purpose

According to those definitions I do see control and manipulation on your part in dealing with your family. Again I will stress the quickest example I have of you using NLP as a means to change someone. I want to ask you if you have told your Coach that you are working with what your goal for learning NLP is?

I do think your use of tough love is inappropriate. Tough love is usually used in situations of problem children (usually teenagers) and issues of substance abuse. It's not meant to deal with "annoying habits".

Read below a discription of Tough Love:

* Tough love is saying no when the yes would be much easier, but would make the child or other person more of a dependant.

* Tough Love is non-manipulative and unconditional

* Tough Love offers empathy, but not sympathy

* Tough Love is non-supportive of victim stories

* Tough Love offers support and courage, but not help

* Tough love encourages strength not weakness

* Tough love doesn't worry that you might make a mistake

* In fact, tough love encourages free choice and the learning that comes from making mistakes.

* Tough love opts for your growth in consciousness

* Tough love says, "If you eat crackers in bed; sleep you must sleep with the crumbs."

* Tough love knows that you must learn how to lose before you can win.

* Tough love knows that security is in letting go, not in hanging on.

* Tough Love is the courage to say "No" when "Yes" would spoil the child

* Tough love knows that help freely given can create dependency

* Tough Love demands responsible behavior

* Tough Love doesn't do for them what they can do for themselves

* Tough Love expects cooperation and courteous behavior

* Tough Love respects their rights and command the respect of others



If we are going to live together the rest of OUR lives perhaps? You can tell you W if something annoys you. You can offer suggestions for change. You can offer encouragement for change. If the spouse does not accept change then we have choices. Is this annoyance a deal breaker? Is it something we can accept? If we can't accept it then we have the choice to leave. We cannot force change. We cannot threaten to bring about change. It serves no purpose but to create an atmosphere of control and resentment.



Valid questions and really no solid answers. There are no guarantees. It takes effort and sometimes a person falls back. It's still up to that individual to get back in the game and forge ahead. You have no control over another individual. You can't plan the outcome. If you are tightening the screws and forcing change then are the changes going to be real? I don't think so. It's a forced change not one where the individual made changes based on free will and the willingness and want to change. Those are the changes that usually stick and progression can be made.
You can force a kid to eat spinach but you can't force them to like it. In the end, you have created a complete aversion to spinach and the child will never touch it again. People tend to dig in thier heals, right or wrong, when they feel controlled.

Symphony

I'm going to address some of your issues in your first post and suggest some ideas/alternatives.



Sit down with W and talk. POJA an agreement that any purchases over $X need to be agreed upon by both of you.
W has a budget that she needs to stick to for other purchases outside your original agreement.

Consequence: If a purchase is made without joint agreement it will be returned.




Talk to your W. Express your concerns about wasted entertainment space in the LV.

1) See if you can rearrange some things in LV to make it accomadating to guests. It may cost more money at this time but it will solve an issue that seems to be draining your love for each other. You can't put a price on that.

2) Find a reasonable office space to rent for your research projects.

3) Buy a larger home.

4) Son moves and you have an extra room.



Very easy solution. Hire a service to come in and do basic cleaning every week or two. Set a cooking schedule.

(is the underlying issue here that W is not meeting your needs for DS and RC?)





Senator, by many peoples standards you would be concidered a neat freak. That is not a put down. That is the way you like to do things and in your world it makes sense. Many people are not like you and have thier own way of doing things. What looks like kaos to you is organized kaos to them. You do have a couple of options. Separate completely your laundry from thiers. If they leave a mess it is THIER mess and you don't need to deal with it.

I struggle with laundry issues in my home too. We have ample storage for clothes, dirty and clean. I stopped doing my H's laundry when he wouldn't help and I didn't feel appreciated. I let his laundry pile up and the most I would do is pile it in hampers. When it wouldn't neatly fit in our assigned area in the bedroom I moved it to the livingroom. Sure, I didn't appreciate it being there but it wasn't my responsibility. Eventually he ran out of clothes and did his laundry. Then the laundry sat on the couch for almost 2 months. H would have to move it off the couch every day and put it on the bed and then move it back each night to the couch so we could go to bed. I didn't complain. It wasn't my problem. Eventually the clothes moved to a chair so H didn't have to keep moving them from the couch. I didn't like them in the chair but it wasn't my problem to deal with. What H was avoiding was putting away his winter clothes as I had always done for him to make room for summer clothes. This process took months. One day, when H wanted to use the chair for the massager he put all his clothes away.

I stopped cleaning up after him. I cleaned the house and cleaned up after myself. If H commented the house was messy then I would point out that the messes were not mine. After some time I decided I couldn't deal with the messes so when I cleaned the house I would stack all his things in one chair so that the rest of the house was orderly. Putting those things away were his responsibility.

We still have the issues of him not putting his things away and him not doing his laundry in a timely fashion. The only real difference is it is not my responsibility, I have let him take responsibility and consequences for his actions or inaction and I am no longer bothered. I don't get mad and I am not annoyed. I changed. It was effective FOR ME.



Again, this is you taking responsibility for someone else's actions. Have your apple boxes. It sounds like a good system. If W disagrees with using apple boxes then she doens't have to. You use the apple boxes and let her know that you will create a box just for her. She can put her papers in the box and if she doesn't you will move her things off your apple boxes and put them in her box. You do not have to do this in a neat fashion. Just chuck em on in. If she doesn't like it, she needs to do something about it.

OR as another option, ask your W what she thinks would be a good way of doing things for her. See if you can't come up with a plan that works for both of you.

At this point regarding cleaning and organizing you are asking them to do things your way and it is not a joint agreement or one that will work for everyone. Be careful not to be disrespectful of you W for being different from you. There is no place for that.



W sounds like a normal mom who likes taking care of her son and even though it isn't necessary she may enjoy that.

I do understand your concern for your son to learn responsibility. If you and W can sit down and agree on some rules of conduct for him living in your home and also some consequences for breaking those rules it might be easier for you to enforce them. I don't agree with S having to take laundry to the laundry mat but you could instead inforce rules that he needs to keep his dirty and clean laundry in order or you will start charging him to use the machines. If he is taking to the laundry you are still having to deal with dirty clothes (which might become more if it's inconvenient to wash them) and clean clothes that don't get put away because of the loss of time and the amount of clothes done at one time.

Find rules and consequences agreed on by both of you that are realistic and meet everyone's needs.

(as a side note: Could it be possible that you miss your W doing the things for you that she seems so willing to do for your son?)



That's a tough one and I wonder if there is a power struggle in your home or if it's a way for your W to remain in control of her thoughts, opinions and beliefs. There is no reason for two people to not get along no matter what beliefs they hold. I do believe alot of this has to do with respect. Respect for another person to believe and perceive things differently than we do. My H is an Athiest and I believe in God. Those are about as opposing as one can get. We don't argue. Some of our best conversations have been about our beliefs. We both hold a genuine respect for the other.



Gotta be honest here, any damage to your son has already been done. He's a grown up now and can make his own choices. If you feel he is being damaged then it is time for HIM to move. He's an adult and will benefit greatly in learning how to be that. The best you can do at this point is to set a good example, be courageous and humble enough to right any wrongs you have done and allow him to learn for himself who he is and what he can be. AND you can be there for him when he asks you for advice and support.



I would need more specific examples of critism to address this. I will say that someone can't make you shoulder the load or blame unless you let them.



By creating a crisis I can only assume that you will take some sort of action that cannot be ignored and changes will have to be made or there will be consequences? It sounds very dramatic. I think it may just be a case of stating boundaries and then enforcing them. I caution you to think through any action very thoroughly and be fully prepared to back it up. Also, if people receive a "laundry list" of faults they are less likely to do anything about it. It can become too overwhelming. Taking one issue at a time, addressing it, discussing solutions and goals and then creating an atmosphere where effort can be made without judgement will get things alot further along.



This is very disrespectful talk towards your W.



You are giving your W the control and placing blame. You can be married and still visit with your friends and feel good about yourself. You can't blame her if you choose not to work on those things within and for yourself.




Again, complete disrespect. With this kind of disrespect do you really think your W would be enthusiastsic about meeting your needs? Do you think you can feel this way about her and it not come through in your actions and words?

Your issues as I see them are mostly every day issues that most families deal with. Your situation is not special or especially difficult. The strength of a person is not measured by what happens to us in life but how we deal with it. If we complain, wallow, become resentful or become disrespectful then we show weakness. If we clutch to the negative aspects of life and people we will surely always lose. If we can accept people as flawed and accept that they will work on those flaws in thier own time and in thier own way we create a peace for ourselves. We are not responsible for the actions of another. We are responsible to ourselves and our actions and reactions. We can create positive change within ourselves and thus create a positive environment. We can decide if we can accept or if we need to move on.

Thoughts?

Symphony

Senator,
I realize I have already posted alot today but wanted to add something in hindsight.

I wonder if you aren't spending so much time analysing the issues and ways you can fix them that you are missing the simplicity of it all.

You sound very intelligent. I wonder if it isn't difficult for you to deal with things on a simple level or an emotional level. It would appear to me that things need to be in order, charted and graphed, almost scientific in nature.

Only you aren't dealing with numbers and theories and facts. You are dealing with ever changing people with thoughts and emotions.

Thoughts?

I would also be interested to know what your needs are.

Symphony

Dear Symphony,

Would you care to share any of your struggles with habit control, or habit improving coaching?

As I mentioned, I have POJA with my wife to be her coach for her to improve her habit for being on time to work.

SUCCESSFUL OUTCOME VISON:
I suggested that W imagine that:

FEELINGS

You are walking into work, on time, and everyone at work is giving you nods of resepect. You are getting your work organized, going over your calendar, with all the day's responsiblies freshly in mind, together with diversion options, if something runs over, who you can call to shuffle responsibilities.


Words:
Answers for others:

"You are EARLY TODAY!!!!

1. I'm trying to get ahead for TODAY.

2. It is a good feeling to be EARLY.

3. Changing habits should be easy.

4. I feel better when I am Early.

5. I wanted some extra time to plan out the shifting workload. Seems to change Every Day.

6, Thanks for noticing.

7. Thanks for supporting my efforts to improve.


ACTION:
Set your alarm a little ahead. try to leave at 25 after instead of 35 after.





RESULTS:
Today, my wife was 10 min late. I did not program much of the vision since the day before yesterday.

Coach needs more diligence.
660

I disagree. Your W needs more diligence. You have created the atmosphere and given her the positive outcomes of such a change. You have given her some workable solutions. You have offered your support. The rest is up to her.

What I think Coach needs is more patience. Your W is making a big change. It is a silly thing to think that leaving for work 5 minutes earlier would be so tough BUT for her it is. If it wasn't she wouldn't have the problem. Now, she has the desire to make the change, she has some options towards resolving the issue and she may miss a few times before she hits but she will get there. She may create a pattern of success but may at some point fall back. That is when she will need encouragement (not judgement) to get back in there.

I used to have the same problem. Always 5 minutes late. Best intentions didn't help. I tried to get up 5 minutes early, tried to leave 5 minutes earlier but it didn't work. I realized I needed to change that and in time found a solution by trial and error. I get up 2 hours before I need to be somewhere! I have time to relax with a cup of tea and breakfast if I choose, maybe check email or watch the morning news. I consider travel time and leave myself 1 full hour to get ready. Then I am not stressed and have time for those little things to come up. If I do find I am running late then I make that time up in some pretty fast walking.

5 minutes turned into 2 hours and for me that turned into an effective solution. W needs to find her effective solution. Not you, her. She's an adult. Now, should she decide that being 5 minutes late is acceptable for her and she will deal with the consequences of that then that is her choice and is for her to make. Again, she is an adult. A person doesn't HAVE to do anything but there will be consequences. She will have to deal with those consequences not you. It doesn't mean your coaching is poor. It means she has made a choice. You can do nothing but respect that.

Any other thoughts on yesterday postings from me?

Symphony

Dear Symphony,


W and I have a limit of $50 for purchases without POJA. W routnely ignores the limit, without apology. W does not offer restitution or community service or other restitution as attonement.


Basically, you are stating anti-coaching opinions and anti-Tough Love opinions. I am applying Tough Love Principles and NLP Caoching principles. I use coaching, and have two active coaches now, myself. I have coached others on the Internet, who have asked for advice. I have been involved in self-help groups and classes, where helping each other was encouraged, coached and appreciated.

This thread has kicked up some feelings for you. You shared your strategy for your self-improvement for getting to work on time. I have not read up on your posts. I remember reading some of your posts, and I generally had a positive opinion of your posts.

Because I have presented ideas of Tough Love and NLP coaching, it is fair, in my opinion, for you to express precuationary views about any disadvantages you might see as possible.

I agree that Coaching and Tough Love do not fit in with my ideal of Love that I had as a teenager and even as a young man. My expereinces have taught me the value of receiveing coaching. Also, the value of passing on coaching to others, because in the process I learn deeper myself.

Since you have some strong feelings, and I feel you are trying to be polite to me, and you have offered to not post anymore, if I asked you, I suggest that you give me a rant of your feelings about Tough Love and Coaching. An unrestricted Rant. Slam me as hard as comes up for you. Then try to put together your truely accurate cautionary principles for other readers. Tough Love and NLP can be used to excess, and be abusive.

I feel that I am using Tough Love and NLP coaching within reasonable restraints. I have posted my actions on this board for review. I read other's feelings, and continue to re-examine my approaches.

You may have some ideals which I am failing to meet. You may have had some experiences of which I remind you about, that could be more fully flushed out. My style of posting my seem obnoxious to you. Or some combination. You may wish to elaborate on expereinces or yours or others, and how they relate to this thread.

Today, I admitted to my wife that I was using an unfair coaching technique. I told W that I felt like a failure as her habit coach, for getting to work on time, and I asked her to be on time so that I would feel that I was a better coach. I admitted that that was not pure habit coaching, and was actually playing on her sympathies. But your message, that it is not MY job to get her to work on time, was also there, but unspoken.

Last night, W was watching the VHS tapes she likes. We have two TV's in the bedroom, at the foot of the bed, and one earphone headset. I hooked up my NLP DVD to the second TV, and hooked up the earphones, and watched my NLP lectures. So the lecturer was waving his hands, drwing diagrams and showing charts. W commented with some interest on the DVD, althoough not a high enough level to turn off her VHS tape. But my watching NLP carried the message, that I was putting in EFFORT to help her change her habits. Perhaps that is a guilt trip, but I felt it showed sincerity. I think W saw it as LOVE and Devotion to her.

Sock it to me, I am ready.

Blessings

Hi Senator,



Sounds like you need to create a POJA that is based on both of you coming to an enthusiastic agreement and that has agreed upon consequences.



Your thread hasn't kicked up strong feelings for me and I have posted to you exactly how I feel about things and have said exactly what I have wanted to say. No rant, no sockin it to ya. I merely find you and your views and objectives intriguing. I sense a lack of emotion in your posts which I have stated and I feel you are using tough love and coaching strategies in a way that looks to me as having some implications of control and manipulation. I get the impression that you are using these techniques as a means to change others.



Actually, I have never known anyone like you.

I have no issue with tough love or coaching. I actually think they are both great ways to reach people. I fully support the use of both approaches. I do think there is a danger of them being used inappropriately and thus causing more damage.

So far the reviews from other posters here have been about the same. Control issues on your part. I highly suggest you look into that. If that is the perception here it may very well be an issue in your personal life that might need to be addressed.


I'm glad you saw that as an unreasonable request. I remember reading that you had also at one point talked about your research space and you telling your W she didn't love you because she didn't want you to have your space (as I said, I am remembering, I don't have time tonight to go back and read the post). Those types of replies are chock full of a good old fashion guilt trip. Putting guilt trips on people is a form of trying to control them. If you don't do this, I will be forced to do this. If you don't let me have this you don't love me. If you don't do things my way I will be forced to feel bad about myself. Sounds kinda yucky doesn't it Senator?



Why don't you ask your W what she feels? Then you wouldn't have to guess. If she felt it was a loving gesture then you would know. Just ask her. Let her tell you how she feels without reacting. That is how you get an honest reply. It may not be what you want to hear but it will be the truth.

Symphony

Senator,

I have read your thread from its outset. Symphony is being very kind to you. I have refrained from posting to you because I cannot do so in a kind way - not because anything you say are "triggers" for me, but because I have difficulty with your attitude toward your wife and son - your rants on here make them sound like idiots that you look down upon with contempt. I do agree with the others, though, that you have control issues. Before trying to "fix" your wife and son, spend some time looking inward. I am wondering to myself whether your wife's and son's behaviors are the result of the way you have treated them over the years - in other words, have they become apathetic to you and your ideas because of the way you treat them.

Don't bother answering me...

BB

Senator,

I have a little more time today to address some of the other points in your last post.



Could you give me some examples of the contradiction in my ideas for approach VS how you would approach the issues with tough love or NLP techniques?



Can you explain the reasons you feel a tough love approach and NLP coaching is necessary in your situation?

Can you list the goals you have in using these techniques?

Can you state the restraints you have set for yourself within using the techniques to be sure that you are not using them in excess or in an abusive manner?

Symphony

Dear Symphony and Brit's Brat,

CONTROL ISSUES:
W wants 9/10 of the house, and I want 1/3. So that is a control conflict. Control manipulation is one way to resolve control issues. Negotiation, I will give you this, and you give me that, is another approach. To me, W is making a Selfish Demand. To you readers, I am a control freak.

TOUGH LOVE CRISIS GUIDELINES:
Tough Love techniqes can be used for too small an issue, and Crises can be created that are excessive, or beyond reasonably manageable. The deliberately created crisis should fit the importance of the problem.

I have been in counseling with W, and the counselors agree that I have not been excessive, for the situation at hand. I am following the guidelines I set up under counseling .

Currently I am not implimenting any crisis.

My goal in manufacturing a crisis is to create a big picture vision from a micro-focus outlook. W occasionally gets stuck on one issue, like it is the only issue that matters to her.


NLP GUIDELINES:

There are various levels of POJA. One is an agreement that a habit is undesirable. Being on time to work.

A second is that certain goals can be achieved by habit change. Better power at work. More respect from co-workers. Less chance of undesirable assignments, etc.

Another Level of agreement, that specific actions are desirable to achieve an improvement in a particular habit. Leaving at 21 minures before the hour, insted of 16 minutes before the hour, to be on time. certain is that

NLP can be applied without POJA, and I have drwn the line at obaining conscious agreements.

Yeterday, W was 5 Min late for work, and left at 16 min before the hour.

My DVD points out that we need to identify the key factor, and the way to address the key factor, appropriately. We may need to embrace time, in some sense, rather than fight time as an enemy.

CHANGING ATTITUDES:

NLP can assist in identifying attitudes that form a basis of a behAvior. NLP can help to mold or change the kEy attitude,

In the habit of Stuttering, there is sometimes an anxiety about taking time, in silence, to search for the best word for a thought. NLP can assist in changing the attitude from Anxiety, to embracing the time when better words are being searchd by the mind, as silence.

For being late, I myself am rearely actually late to work, but I could be earlier, and have a more pleasant change of shift. Today I decided to embrace listening to my co-workers criticism and come in early. The NLP idea, is that there ia an underpinning anxiety, that drives a habit. The anxiety is in denial, but is in a feeding loop. Perhaps I am anxious about what co-workers may say about my past or future performance, so I avoid their comments, by coming in as close to on-time as possible.

Today, I worked on changing my feeling of anzxiety, about co-workers comments, to a feeling of an enjoyable challenge, to be relished. I was earlier to work today.

MY LOVE BUSTER:

I committed an angry outburst aganst W when she contradicted me about an issue related to being on time. I let an impule of anger be expressed. This is not a recommended part of NLP. Badgering the habit changer is not mentioned in anything I have found out about NLP.

But I also pointed out to W that she participated in the process, in another way she has agreed should be changed, in that she addressed my ideas in a make-wrong manner.

She seemed to understand her part in the sequence. W uses verbal abuse as a negotiating ploy. I try to avoid speaking in ager, and I am most usually successful.

Blessings

Senator,



In regard to the specific issue you presented, no, I don't believe you are. In regard to the general way you speak of your W and S and the way you speak of changing them, you come off as controlling. In the way you talk of tough love and NLP as a way to change the "annoying habits" of others, I believe you sound controlling and at times munipulative.



CRISIS:

1 a : the turning point for better or worse in an acute disease or fever b : a paroxysmal attack of pain, distress, or disordered function c : an emotionally significant event or radical change of status in a person's life <a midlife crisis>
2 : the decisive moment (as in a literary plot)
3 a : an unstable or crucial time or state of affairs in which a decisive change is impending; especially : one with the distinct possibility of a highly undesirable outcome <a financial crisis> b : a situation that has reached a critical phase <the environmental crisis>

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Improper use of funds can lead to a crisis.
Questioning divorce or separation is a time of crisis.
Consistant argument over the devision of space in the house can quickly lead to a crisis.

These are issues which should be prioritized and addressed.

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W gnoring household duties for social activities is not a crisis.
You having to search for items that are inproperly placed is not a crisis.
W not using apple boxes is not a crisis.
Wand S not tending to clean/dirty laundry is not a crisis.
Making the LV into a showroom is not a crisis.

The above are inconveniences.

W going to work 5 minutes late is not a crisis. (it doesn't even directly affect you)
W pampering college aged son is not a crisis!

Senator, here's my honest imput from our conversations on this post.

1. You have avoided answering direct questions from me.

2. You are trying to change petty habits and personality flaws in your W and S to avoid dealing with the big issues.

3. The big issues are that you are in a M where your needs aren't getting met, your share no recreational activity with your W, you don't feel respected or loved.

4. You are grasping to control the uncontrollable in an effort to have some kind of control where you feel there is none.

5. You consistantly demean and disrespect your W in your posts out of resentment. Resentment that has come from years of the marriage failing and being ignored by both parties. One thing you have to realize is the M didn't turn this way overnight and you are just as responsible for allowing it to deteriorate to the point it has.

6. You are sabotaging real change within your M by using strategies that are inappropriate and ineffective instead of focusing on the real issues and finding real workable solutions.

7. You are spending so much time and energy finding ways to change others that you don't see that the solutions come from within you. Changing communication, focusing on the real issues, setting boundaries, communicating needs and feelings openly and honestly.

8. You are not realizing that focusing on one issue is the best way to resolve it and then carrying that new found energy of success into dealing with the next issue.

9. You make excuses for your behavior (DJ's, angry outbursts, guilt trips) by in fact blaming your poor behavior on them and what they made you do. You are 100% responsible for every word and action that comes from you.

I have two questions that I would like answered.

1. Am I wrong about any of the above statements? (If yes, please specify and explain)

2. Have you seen any progress with your W and S using NLP and Tough Love? (I mean real progress, real change, real resolution)

Symphony

P.S. I said you were a neat-freak, not a control-freak <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />