Dear Symphony,

Thanks for your reply.

I hope that you are not correct that I find ways to punish Wife and College Son for their deviations from my wishes. Certainly I admit that those thoughts come up for me, but I feel I do a good job of recognixzing negativity, and avoiding those retaliations.

Over the course of this thread, I have progressed from defining my wife's actions as undercutting, to more specific requests for change. I have now defined some requests of Wife. Avoiding setting up roadblocks in the process for College Son to Particpate in Dish Washing, Laundry and Newspaper sorting/recycling. I have also defined circumstances where Wife has an opportunity to demonstarte more mutual respect, between her and myself, when College Son is less that fully cooperative with chores,or otherwise less than fully respectful.

I have tried to be encouraging for wife to make some changes. Also to look within herself for blocks to the changes. And to see if there are habits or action in which I play into a sequence of less than optimal outcomes.

But defining requestged changes, and attempting to promote the changes, has not resulted in substantial change. More important than actual change, I was looking for W to be able to see the reasoning beind my requests for change, and to realize the uncercutting effects of her impulsive actions, in the household.

I believe I have a better handle on being able to explain her undercutting, and she has a bettter idea of what I am talking about.

The question, for now, is what proportion of efforts do I put into attempting to facilitate change, and what percentage into working around the problems. The third option, as you suggested in your post, is to ignore the potentials for improvement, for College Son and Wife, and work on my own productivity. Both in making the household more pleasant, and in my own projects of endeavors.

Ideas?
2052 Views 11-14-05

Senator,

Do you read what you write? Seriously, do you take a pause from your writings here and read back over them?

"Basically, move my stuff out of the house and live somewhere else. I can do it sneaky and smooth. Not my nature, but maybe just focus on my physical/strategic power over them."

Senator, it's hard to see things when you are in it. This statement would be considered alarming by many. Its starts off well enough. You say you feel disrespected so you have the option of leaving, getting your own place. The thing is you aren't using it as a boundary, you are in your last sentance using it as a tool. A weapon to excert your power over them. The statement "sneaky and smooth" shows trickery. The statement "physical/strategic power over them" shows control and manipulation.

"Therefore, given that the atmospehre is unacceptable to me in the house, as it is, I need to make plans for change, myself. Do you have any suggestions, or offers of any assistance?"

"The third option, as you suggested in your post, is to ignore the potentials for improvement, for College Son and Wife, and work on my own productivity. Both in making the household more pleasant, and in my own projects of endeavors."

These are areas where you could actually see some improvement in your environment. First, by asking your W what roll you play in her feeling oppositional. The key would be for you to actually listen to what she says without reasoning and excusing her thoughts and feelings away but actually taking some time to ponder and see what actions you could take in changing your approach or direction. She very well may say she isn't interested in change (as she already has) and that is something you have to accept. You don't have to like it and you do have options concerning what you will do with that (ie leaving or letting it go) however, you cannot change her feelings nor her thoughts. You can only choose how you react to them.

Second, by focusing on YOUR role you can effect change. You see Senator, in dealing with other thinking, feeling human beings you can only control yourself. Most people who feel that they are being controlled will become oppositional. It's a normal human defense to become defensive when pressured, pushed or attacked. It's normal to go against change when change is being forced on you. To expect change from someone is a losing battle. They have to want it. As much as you would like your W to see things with your eyes it's not going to happen. She has her own working brain and her own set of eyes. She isn't you and never will be.

By focusing on the "negatives" you are missing out on alot of positives. Would you really end your M because of a few misplaced newspapers and dishes and laundry being a bit disorganized? While those things may be important to you, they aren't to many and wouldn't be grounds for D. Maybe those things are your hill to die on and that's ok if that is your choice. The thing is, you can't force those things to be done your way. I can see two workable options.

1) You accept a little disorder

2) You stop expecting change from them and pick up the slack yourself.

Both are things you CAN control. Both have nothing to do with them and can effect change in your environment and bring YOU peace.

College son is a grown man and is at an age where he is capable of being responsible for himself. Why isn't he moving out? Afraid you would lose some control? My guess is you have raised your son in an environment that he has not learned to be responsible and has been under your thumb. You haven't raised a man Senator. He's far to old to be living at home and I gotta say, at that age, living at home is NOT a chick magnet.

"Wife had come home after College Son. When I arrived home, Wife and I were leaving shortly for a meeting. Wife was going to cook College Son some food before leaving. I privately asked her not to cook for son, as he had disrespected me, by parking in front of the house. Not that I can't walk.

I asked Wife, in the future, to ask College Son to move his car, or to offer to move his car for him, if he was justifiably busy. I asked her to take notice of his parking, as a matter of respect. Certainly, if College Son is loading or unloading, that could be reasonable, but that was not the case.

I asked wife to look for ways that she could boost my respect with College Son. I asked her to avoid rewarding disrespect. Fixing Son Dinner, while he is parked in my space, is behaviourly confusing. Wife has smirked and disrespected me too many times, in front of Son. I am asking her to reverse her wrongdoings."

Senator, you asked your W to take care of your business. Your son has been told not to park in your spot and he did. Handle it yourself. You have loads of options. He didn't follow the rules and the consequences should come from you not your W. Take away car priveleges is an option. You are asking for respect from W and S. Create that by handling your own business. Asking W to take care of these things is not respect building. If you have a problem with son handle it YOURSELF.

"W argued about it for a few hours, but after a while, she began to see my points, and feel my reasonable leadership. Now we seem to be on a better course."

I doubt she saw your points. You just wore her down. What choice does she have but give in regardless of her thoughts and feelings. You will drive it home no matter what she thinks and feels. People just give up at some point. You got your way. Happy? Don't be too excited. You are forcing change and thoughts and feelings that she doesn't own. Nothing will come of it. Oh wait, resentment and opposition comes of that. You've already got proof.

"SENATOR'S RANT:
I am interested in getting on with my productivity. I am bound up with be being oppositional to oppositional family members. I feel uncomfortable working on anything around that house. The atmosphere just makes me uptight. I would rather stay late at work, or go to a room in somebody else's house."

"My oppositional nature makes it difficult for me to admit the possibility that many who posted to this thread, being correect, in their pessimistic view about my accoplishing the requested changes I have developed and attempted during this thread."

Now for the contradiction:

"I hope that you are not correct that I find ways to punish Wife and College Son for their deviations from my wishes. Certainly I admit that those thoughts come up for me, but I feel I do a good job of recognixzing negativity, and avoiding those retaliations."

No you don't Senator. You want to believe you aren't being oppositional, controlling and manipulative. There isn't a single person who has replied to your thread that hasn't seen in your own words your oppositional controlling nature. It's there. It's very obvious. There are many who have tried to point it out to you and you've been very respectful in your replies but your replies are full of avoidance. Could that be a sampling of conversations between you and your W? You go on and on about things but aren't at all in touch with what people are actually saying to you. Most of your replies have nothing to do with dialog as they are a monolog. You don't answer questions, you don't stay on topic with what the person has said.

Have you noticed that many reply once and then don't bother? Could that be because you aren't actually replying to them but fulfilling your own needs of getting some point across or just expressing some rambling? Could it be that you are as oppositional as many have pointed out but don't see it yourself?

To be honest, I don't know why I bother to reply. I guess it's some twisted part of me that says if I keep a dialog with you maybe some day you will see the light. I wonder if you are actually for real or if this is some research project that you find amusing. More than anything I wonder why dishes, laundry and newspapers consume your days to the point that you don't deal with the real issues of your GROWN son living at home and the posibility that your W is having an affair. I'm intriged by you Senator. That and I actually feel a little sorry for you.

Symphony

Dear Symphony,

One of your observations I would like to put first, because I need to give it further consideration. You are suggesting that my attempts to control the household are motivating my wife to be oppositional to my wishes. I don't have a ready answer for that idea.

I appreciate any sympathy anyone has to offer. I am approaching this like a research project. I am trying to make it work.

In respect to my job being to ask my son to move his car, when he is inconsiderate about where he parks, presumes an issue has been resolved. How do I talk to Son, without disparaging my wife?

Having increased respect in the house is one of my main desires.

The atmosphere, makes my productivity difficult for me.

I got married to be inspired, not sabotaged.

I have identified a number of ways in which W creates stoppages in the flow of Dishes, Laundry, Newspapers, trash, etc.

I have explained wife's behaviorally confusing signals to College Son, when Son is slacking off on his chores/responsibilities. I have discussed easy ways for W to bring up her issues with Son.

I am interested in complementing W, and enhancing her respect from College Son.

Unfortunately, my explanations/revelations have not produced a change in the habits of W. I do not expect W to change very much. One change is that I am more cogent in my explanations of W's stoppages, and mixed signals. W understands more where I am coming from, when I say she is undercutting me.

But what now?

How do I talk to College Son?

"Your mom frequently makes chores more difficult to help with, because she is unable to control her creative impulses, and she creates difficulties for others to help with the chores. You should expect to find the sink clogged with dishes, the silver soaking bowl missing, and the top of the dishwasher stacked with dishes, which might or might not be clean.

You should expect to find the upstairs hamper jammed with clothes to be washed, with no room to put your clothes in the hamper. You should expect other people's clothes to be left jumbled in the clean clothes stack, so it will be difficult for you to organize your clothes. You should expect there to be cloths on the floor ion from of the clean clothes stack, and you will have to guess whether to wash the clothes or put them in the clean clothes stack.

Yo should not expect o be able to find a trash bag for the kitchen waste basket, as the trash bags will either be out, or have been moved to a locations that will beyond your imagination of logic."

You should also expect your mom to be telling you about how wrong I am in any of several respects. These make-wrong statements will often be about issues that are between her and I, and not concern you."

Just do the best you can with pitching in with the chores. If there is some right or wrong issue you wish to discuss with me, then let me know, and we will go out for Lunch or Dinner.

I would like to build up W. I have not found a way to do it. I will ask W how to go about it.

But for myself, I am concerned with the contradiction of my ideals, and my essential element of records are in my stacking boxes. W sometimes says she hates my boxes. W also put up roadblocks fro my stacks of boxes. She puts her stuff on top of the boxes, then in the aisle beside the boxes. The boxes need to be easily unstacked and stacked back up again for order and access. When W has a bunch of stuff on the floor, in the aisles, then there is no place to unstack the boxes. The key to the stacking boxes, is the top box access. With W putting her stuff haphazardly on tops of the boxes, then someplace has to be found for this stuff she has stacked on top of the boxes, before getting access to that stack.

There are extra empty boxes, and she could use stacking boxes for most of her stuff. But again, W takes a bollixing approach.

W has some high moral talking friends, and W believes they are for real, but W doesn't believe that way, but she goes along with her friends.

We have not even gotten to that yet. We have just been discussing parenting issues.



Ideas?
2071 Views, 11-15-05

Senator,



You and I think very differently. I am more emotionally based yet I do have a thinking side. Fortunetaly that thinking side keeps my emotional side in balance. From what I read in your words you have a very strong thinking side and it is not balanced with emotion. The only feeling you project in your words are that of frustration. Life IS NOT a research project. People don't fit into molds and numbers. People most often fit into personality profiles but even then, there is a mix or crossover. As I said, I am emotionally based but my thinking side has grown over the years and now I run about 50/50. For a person such as yourself, you seem to be a strong thinker but you could also nuture and grow your feeling (emotional) side to a more balanced level. That takes work and it's very challenging but it can be done in time. Something you may want to consider.



Well first, I would suggest changing how you see your son. He is not College aged, nor is he a boy. He's a grown man who is capable and who SHOULD be making his own decisions and acting responsibly. Your roll at his age is not so much father as roomate considering his age and the living arrangements. He doens't need for you to care for him but instead you need him to care for himself. It's your job now to set boundaries with him. The dynamic I see is a son who is stomping on set boundaries (your requests for proper roomate behaviors) and instead of you enforcing boundaries you spend the time trying to change W or discussing issues about son with W. Many times asking her to take care of it. You have control here Senator. You choose how you act and react. Currently, while you and W are arguing and/or discussing sons disrespectful behavior he is getting away with it. Take action and direct it where it needs to be directed.

Your dialog to son is FULL of disrespect towards your W and thus breeds disrespect in your son towards his mother. That disrespect will come full circle in your W and Sons disrepect towards you. You want respect in your home? It starts with you. Your son and your W are two different people who play different rolls and have different responsibilities. Both are responsible to each other and to you because you are a family unit and you share living space. However, none of you are responsible FOR one another. W does not pay for sons disrespect or irresponsibility. Son does not pay for W's.

You have a problem with one of them take it up with that person. Don't ask the other person to handle it or change thier behavior in hopes of an affect on the problem you have with the other. You create a vicious circle and your current sich is evidence of that.

Your current way of handling laundry, dishes etc isn't working. You need to either change your perseption of the sich or change the sich.

Laundry is easily solved. Separate hampers for each. If clothes are left lying on the floor, clean or dirty, throw them in their hamper. Stack it as high as humanly possible. It's not your problem to fix but since you have to live with it you can do something which is to remove the clutter out of your way. Don't give a rip how bad a overflowing hamper looks. It's not yours. Set an exapmple by doing your laundry but leave them to do it thier way in thier time. Seriously, this can work. It's how it has been done in my home and it's taken about 6 months but H has now done his laundry when his hamper was full AND put it away. The only change you have to do is to get over the frustration and remind yourself it is not your responsibility or problem.

Dishes. Who doesn't hate doing dishes? Wash your own and leave the others to thier own mess. Live in a little clutter and don't say a word. In a bit of time, after S and W get sick of you picking up the slack and living in a mess they will do something about it or you will really know what you are up against. Right now everyone is trying to be themselves and resisting rather than working together. Allow them some space to find THIER way to do things and what works.

Research boxes. Organization is really important. Sounds like you are alot better than me and I do know that it's really hard when someone throws a wrench into the "plan". I think I've mentioned this before. Take one of those empty boxes and set it on the side of yours. Ask W to use it. When something of hers is cluttering your space put it in her box. You don't have to organize it. Just set it in there. It's her responsibility and her problem. If the box gets full stack another on top and proceed.

This IS a research project. You are changing your attitude and the way you act and react to things. Give it two months. No nagging or complaining from you. Just go on about your business and if the clutter gets in your way move it to the assigned spot. See what happens.

Again, there is LOADS of disrespect towards your W. Your posts and dialog are FILLED with it. Rethink it. Examine your words. When your W cuts or undermines you it is probably based out of the same frustrations towards you as you have towards her. Think about that. Listen to what she says and disect it and see if there isn't some truth in what she is saying. Often there is. Poor choices of wording and attitude often have an underlying reason.

As for dialog with son:

Son, I would like for you to take better responsibilty regarding household chores and upkeep. Here is a list of how I want things done. (give him the list) I expect that you will follow the house rules and be respectful of your mother and myself. I would like for us all to work together to create a positive living situation.
(questions to son)
Do you think you can do this?
If the rules are broken what kind of consequences should thier be? (suggestions would be limited car privileges, limited cash)

Symphony

Dear Symphony,

Thanks for the phrase, "Throw a wrench in the works"

Previously I was limited to: Bollixing, Roadblocks, Sabotage, Creating Stoppages.


Today, I called my wife as she was getting off work, and she said she was coming home, and I said I was also on my way. When I arrived home, my son's van was parked in one of the two spots. My wife was not yet home. I drove off and came back hours later.

W asked, "Did you get angry that son was parked in your space?"

I replied, "No, I was just giving you an opportunity for Enhancement. That was an opportunity to ask son to give me more respect."

My goal is for W to look for more opportunities for attempting to Enhance respect for me.

This is progress. At least this time, she recognized the opportunity.

W said, "I told College Son that he better move his car. he replied he was just going out, and left shortly after I mentioned it to him."

I replied, "Thanks for mentioning it to him. You could have usee kinder words. Pressure words probably are not needed."


Ideas?
2092 Views 11-16-05

Senator,

So your son parked in your spot AGAIN and instead of walking in the house YOURSELF and taking care of an issue between YOU and SON you left (avoidance) and waited for W to come home and handle YOUR problem.

You made it a tool for her learning instead of a tool for yourself on how to handle and issue. You are a conflict avoider Senator. You are willing to put in the time to change others but not yourself.

Then when she actually did what you asked her to you corrected her on word usuage and her gauge of force! Is she your W or your pawn Senator?

Symphony

Okay, I swore I wouldn't post here again because I think you only want affirmation of how clever, intelligent and right you are....at the risk of being "oppositional"....

When you came home and found your adult son who is freeloading off of you (and, yes, even if he is still in school - we call that professional student - he is freeloading because you are letting him), parked in your spot, why didn't you go in the house and tell him to get off his lazy butt and go move his car? Why was that your wife's responsibility and not yours?
Why did you have to use your pseudointellectualized, manipulative approach to solve a very easy problem? Anyone else would have done as I suggested. Instead, you had to make it your wife's issue - quite frankly, the only reason she probably suggested to your son that he move his car is because she didn't want to have to deal with your "coaching" her to do it. She probably doesn't give two tiddlywinks whether he parks there or not because, quite frankly, I think you are right. They don't respect you - I think they are laughing at you behind your back because they think you're "off the charts" (and I'm not referring to your intelligence, here, I'm referring to your psychological well being). Respect is something that needs to be earned and it is, also, a two way street. By controlling, manipulating and playing mind games, you have not shown them respect and you have also lost theirs.

Oh, and by the way, when Symphony used the phrase "threw a wrench in the works," I don't think she was suggesting another phrase you could use toward your wife and son when they don't do what YOU want them to do.

Until you look inward and see that you may be a HUGE part of the dysfunction in your home and seek professional help for your "issues" nothing is going to improve in your house. To the extent your wife is doing anything you ask, it is most likely to shut you up and not because she agrees with the ideas/approach. Have you done as Symphony suggested and ask your wife and son what it is that YOU are doing that is making life in your home so difficult? Have you REALLY listened to their response?

Oh, and when I suggested professional help for your "issues," I was not referring to coaching or finding some new manipulative approach to force two grown adults to do something they don't want to do. I was referring to psychological/psychiatric help for you....

Respect Increasing Strategy:

Everyone is correct, that ordinarily it is good mental health to directly talk to the individual with whom one has a problem.

I am changing the family dynamics, by deliberately stepping aside, and encouraging my Wife to handle College Son.

As when a substance abuser assists in his own rehabilitation to avoid substance abuse, by assisting in rehabilitating others, I am encouraging my wife to advocate respect from son, to me, and indirectly both of us.

Previously, I assumed the role of managing College Son, and W took the position that I was doing a poor job, and gave me and son disrespect.

So far, my shifts in dynamics seems to be getting wife more into partnering with concerns for College Son.

NLP discusses the motivational dynamics of moving toward or away from things, Also perspectives of attitudes. W is now in the perspective of the driver's seat, instead of being a complaining passenger, not looking at the realities facing the driver.

Ideas?
2109 Views 11-17-05