Fooled...can you give me some idea of the kind of things that her family has told you...I'm not trying to pry, but as I said before, many times there are some behaviors that are associated with bipolar disorder that even the best mental health professionals don't recognize unless they have lived it. In fact, it sounds like your wife's cousin may very well fit that profile, but I'll address that a bit later. Has her family given you any idea of the first time any of her symptoms presented? Also, do any of them have any information regarding the mental health of her parents? Many times this disorder is inherited through the mother, btw (my dad's mother was bipolar).


Many times traumatic events in the life of someone who has a predisposition to bipolar disorder can trigger their first episode. My father's first episode came on in reaction to his own father's diagnosis with Alzheimers. It has been explained to me that there are some people who have the "bipolar gene", but never "cycle"...they, it seems, were/are lucky enough to never have anything traumatic enough in their lives to "pull" the "bipolar trigger". Perhaps that is what your wife's cousin means by everyone being somewhat bipolar...devil's advocate or not, I must tell you that I have a tough time understanding his rationale when making that particular statement...


Can you give me some examples of "rebellious" & "battled"? Is she ALWAYS like this in the face of conflict or is it sometimes more pronounced? Are there any "key" phrases or hand/body gestures that she uses? Is her speech ever rapid or seemingly forced? Does conflict ever push her to the point that she feels unable to deal with it verbally and therefore feels the need to write letters or have others write letters to her? Does she fixate (almost obsessively) on certain things or events at different periods of her life? Does she go from this rebellious type behavior into periods of deeply religious expression? Does she get very excited about big ideas that she comes up with? Is she very creative or does she have a very gregarious "sales" type of personality?


Fooled, I understand that this man is your friend, and I don't wish to isolate you by questioning someone that you highly regard, but I have genuine concern with his take on your situation, so I am compelled to address it. First, when you live with someone who has a mental illness, you already find yourself questioning whether or not it is you and are you going crazy...some of the things that go on in households dealing with these type issues really cause you to have a need for others to validate what's going on, because the person that is affected sure as heck won't. Does that sound familiar? The members of her immediate family seem to understand this on some level, though they may not even know why. Remember, they have LIVED WITH HER, and I would be willing to bet that her cousin NEVER has...that makes his opinion not as valid in my view...I promise you that people who have lived with the bipolar are a much better measure of that persons behavior than even the most educated of mental health professionals out there...the family develops a "sixth sense" that is keener than any other. In my reading, counseling (with a counselor who's late H was and daughter is bipolar), and personal experience, I have come to understand that there is SOOOOO... much that the mental health community does not "get" in regards to this illness. It is quite a cunning disorder, and sometimes hard to recognize and certainly to understand unless you have "walked the walk". As the highest functioning of the mentally ill, bipolars can be the most crafty and manipulating people on the face of the earth...enough to "fool" even the most experienced professionals...psyciatrists DEFINITELY included!!!

What does he say the "real problem" is? What exactly does he say that you are doing "wrong"? His telling you what you are doing "wrong" really concerns me, as it somehow implies that you can control your W's behavior. It, as I'm sure you know, is impossible to control the behavior of anyone else, but that is ESPECIALLY true regarding a person affected with bipolar disorder...THEY can't even control themselves...how could you be expected to?

His take on meds also makes me a bit nervous...sounds a bit "Tom Cruisesque"...



My mom struggled with this for so long. My father became so abusive and controlling that there became no other way. The counselor that I go to is a Christian counselor, and she and I have discussed mental illness and how it relates to what the Bible refers to as demon possession. In Matthew 5, after Jesus heals the demon possessed man that was living in a tomb, He then tells him to go home to his family...this speaks to someone not being able to live with one who is demon possessed. Obviously, in your case if you do decide to divorce, adultery is a biblical "out"...only God knows what is between you and Him. I also do not think that God wants you to allow yourself to be destroyed by another.



What type of behavior was your W exhibiting in order for the doctor to make the bipolar diagnosis? Also, I have yet to meet an unmedicated bipolar who "admits" to an episode of mania or hypomania...interesting, however, that they are more ok with copping to the depression (a very uncomfortable condition, as opposed to the high of mania) and will more readily take the drugs to treat that...anxiety drugs are also accepted, if not sought out, by them...Btw, many times people with bipolar disorder have substance abuse problems, this is referred to in the mental health community as a "dual diagnosis"...bipolars try to "self medicate" it is hypothesized.



Read up on "rapid cycling" and see if it sounds familiar to you. The above desciption certainly could be categorized in this way.



Pretty dead on textbook reaction. They flip one way and then the next regarding their diagnosis. My dad will call himself bipolar and then 5 minutes later berate any doctor or person who has ever even mentioned the disorder in the same breath with his name...You cannot apply logic to the illogical. Bipolars process information differently than the rest of society, even when not in a cycle. What you have to keep in mind is that a mentally ill person is ALWAYS mentally ill, even when they are not in an "episode" and even when medicated...you cannot cure mental illness, you can only treat it.


Transference...I can't tell you how many times my dad used this...He told my mom she was "nuts" so much that she began to wonder herself at times...he would call my mom's friends and family and tell them how very worried he was about her...he even called the police saying that she was suicidal(so not true)...some of his behaviors often were too bizarre to even repeat to other people, because they almost did make you sound like the crazy one...the behaviors were so off the wall, that at times they took on a very fictional or even cartoonish tone.


Pretty common...my dad was involuntarily commited last year for doing the same thing with Xanax...ran his car into the side of KFC and my mom's house, fell down, cut his head open, and was begging for more Xanax(he had taken eight 2mg pills in less than 24 hrs.), which is when my mom called the ambulance. Btw, if my dad sounds at any time like he is "worse" than your W, two things could explain that...(1) There are several different types of bipolars...categories, if you will-some with more mania, some with more depression, and so on...my dad's manic episodes last for around 6 months at a time...to me that seems to be the worst kind, but I suppose it's all relative...AND (2)The episodes get more severe with age, my dad is now 60 and has been cycling since he was 35(pretty late onset, btw).


Yes, they can cause depression and they are also a common "drug of choice" for an abuser...remember the "dual diagnosis"...




Of course your staying with her is an option...this is where counseling is of the utmost importance, without it, living with someone affected by bipolar disorder can be damaging to beyond repair. This is were you will learn to draw the boundaries that I mentioned in my earlier post. You will learn that your wife's illness may explain her behavior, but it DOES NOT excuse it! Your boundaries are yours specifically and the counselor will help you to define them as they apply in situations that you face in your life. Boundaries protect you from feeling responsible for your W's choices. Some boundaries may be emotional ones where others will be practical solutions for dealing with the circumstances created by your W's mental illness.


I believe that before marital issues can be addressed, the Bipolar Disorder must be taken care of. For years, my father blamed marital issues for the problems that were constantly plaguing his life...he saw these as marital problems because my mom (like any non mentally ill person would) questioned his irrational actions and behaviors..."challenging" a bipolar's rationale always leads to their tirades and blaming of others...my parents marriage would have been wonderful had it not been for his untreated illness. In times when he was not cycling, I could not cite a better example of marital bliss than that shared by my parents. Failure of BOTH my mother and father to deal with his illness led to more pain for my entire family than anyone could imagine. My mom was always ready to sweep everything under the rug once a manic episode was behind us. She wanted so desperately to enjoy a "normal" family life, that rocking the boat during "happy" times wasn't an option...fuzzy boundaries. The times that he was not in an episode would have been ideal for her to have put into place a plan for what would happen the next time a cycle began, regardless of my dad's choices regarding medication...the plan should have been for her to protect HERSELF and my brother and I. Later in my adult years and based on my getting counseling, I have told her, as I am now going to tell you, It is fine for you to choose to live with an unmedicated mentally ill person, but with that choice come consequences...you MUST have plans in place to deal with those in a way that works for YOU...plans that allow YOU to help YOU no matter what the person with the illness does. To give you examples applicable to you, I would need more examples of the types of behaviors that your W exhibits. As far as the A behavior is concerned, if that is a symptom of your W's illness and she continues to refuse medication and treatment, can you deal with that? I understand you wanting to "stick it out" as you would with a physical illness, and while that is commendable, it may not be practical for you...that is what you must determine in counseling...what are your boundaries where this is concerned? Will this be too much damage for you to endure?


My mom finally had to choose to save herself...her physical and mental well being finally had to be put on the forefront. My father was and remains devasted by the decision, but it wasn't until then that he would even consider taking and staying on meds. Even a court order did not keep him on track the way that this has. It makes you wonder what would have happened if she had done this 26 years ago...would my dad have gotten help and saved ALL of us the damage, grief and suffering that we have endured? He very nearly destroyed all of us, but it is the damage done to himself that remains his biggest cross to bare...he's 60, looks 75, has made and lost several fortunes and remains in financial ruin today, has huge IRS problems that he will never overcome, has had more heart attacks and bypasses to name (all stress related according to doctors), multiple DUI's and other arrests and the list goes on and on...I want you to understand that my father is not some low class skid row bum...this man was at one time a "pillar of the community"...He was the vice president of a bank at the age of 35 with no college education...owned a successful car business in addition to that...belonged to every prestigious club in town...coached little league...was in church every Sunday and was the embodiment of every other thing that you can think of in terms of "success". Without treatment, mental illness obliterates the lives of those in it's grips, as well as the lives of any in it's wake. It is one of the cruelest and most life altering fates that I have ever witnessed...I urge you to be as proactive where this is concerned as possible...My heart goes out to you and your situation, and I will help you in any way that I can...


Mrs. Wondering

I BELIEVE THIS IS WHAT SHE HAS AND WHAT HAS CHANGED ME SO BAD OVER THE PAST 6 YEARS.

Ok, I appreciate your advise on the bipolar thing soo much and want to address all your concerns and questions. But right now I've got something so much more pressing!

Someone says she's not going to stop until she destroys me. In many ways, she already has. I have nothing compared to six years ago and I look as if I've aged 12 years. More medical problems, ect. But my this person's instincts on most of this have been right on the money.

She comes across as the most sweet, fun-loving girl to everyone. That's why we've had trouble in counseling, she's so believable!

SHE LIVES IN A FANTACY WORLD OF HER OWN IMAGINATION, I SWEAR! I honestly think she believe the lies she says! I've often asked the question, If she BELIEVES it, is SHE LYING?

HELP!!!

She just called. talked about going out on boat today but Bro was so mad at her for no reason at all. She really thinks he needs to get a grip on his issues. HELLO, she flat out LIED THU HER TEETH when we discussed last night. She says it was her and 3 other girls who went out, and no one else. GF_A drove, and they stayed at her apartment which is right around the corner from my house, but no where near where her car actually stayed all night last night, which was OM3's house. I see now why she says she drove there, simple change of plans, instead of meeting at GF_B's houses. It would have been to easy for me to drive by and check GF_B's house I know right where it is. But even in a huge apertment complex just around the corner and not knowing which apartment it is, I could have eaisly missed it doing a drive by! Very good WS! The problem is though that I've got photo's of where she and her car spent the night. It's amazing to think that she can so BOLDY lie. I could barely keep quiet, but I did.

It's all so clear now. Except, what do I do!!! She was real intersted if I spoke withBro last night and if so, what about? I'm firmly convinced she's "way gone with reality". I've known this for some time, but to try and point it out to her in ways that are indisputable to a rational person is a waste of time. I might as well be talking to my keyboard. AS FAR AS R, WHAT DO I DO??? I WANT SO BAD TO CONFRONT HER WITH WHAT I KNOW, BUT THEN SHE"LL SIMPLY FOCUS THE BLAME BACK ON ME AND HOW SHE CAN"T BE MARRIED TO ME ANYMORE, BUT AT THIS POINT, I DON"T KNOW. Mom's so scared, and I am too that I'm going to let her litterally kill me. Not with physical abuse, but mental and emotional trama!

WHAT DO I DO???

Fooled...

I just saw your last post...I was posting to you when you put that through...Oh Man I Am So Sorry! I know that you must be hurting so much right now...I am going to wait and address the stuff you mentioned in this last post later...after you've answered the questions in my last one to you...I just wanted you to know that someone is reading your posts and thinking of you...I'll say a prayer that you will be given clarity to do what God wants you to do in this situation...but remember, God helps those who help themselves, please find a good counselor...

Mrs. Wondering

P.S. If you would like to contact me off the boards, Mr. Wondering and I have an email acct. set up for communicating with our marriage builder friends...
the_wonderings@yahoo.com ...drop me a note at any time you feel like you may need extra support or have a question or situation too specific to put on the boards...sometimes we do forget to check it though...so you might have to prompt us to do so in your thread on the board...as in, "hey wonderings, check your email!!!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> the_wonderings@yahoo.com

Fooled,

What a knack we have for posting at the same time, huh?

What to do? Gosh, I hate to throw this back in your lap, but what do YOU think you should do??? Go back and re-read your own thread as if it were someone else's and tell me what advice you would give?

Aside from that, you would be wise to make an appt. with Steve Harley (Click on "Counseling Center" at the top of the page to find out how)...he will be able to advise you regarding the best way to handle your current crisis...be sure to tell him of the bipolar diagnosis...

Lean on your mom and other people close in your life for support...Get on your knees and pray, if you can't collect your thoughts enough to do that (I've been there), then just read scripture...just open the Bible to any place at all and begin reading...you will be amazed at the peace that this will give you...this is advice that I got from my Christian counselor, and it does work miracles...

Thinking of you...

Mrs. Wondering

Dear Wonderings,

Thanks so much for your continued support. The situation seems to do nothing but get worse. Good advice though, go back and re-read threads as if it was someone else. MAN, when you take the emotion out of it the choice is simple. Run fast, run far, and never look back!

I think I felt preasure earlier after talking to her, to make a quick decission. She really seemed to want to do something today, as though everythings fine.

I realized, this needs to quit being about her at the moment and be about me. I haven't eaten or slept much in the past 3 days. I don't think I have a clear enough head right now to know what to do. So guess what, she's going to have to wait and find out, although she has no idea right now what I'm even deciding. SHE WILL NO LONGER BE IN CONTROL OF ME, I WILL. IF SHE CALLS BACK, WHICH SHE HASN'T DONE YET, I DON'T ANSWER! I'm taking a hot shower and going to bed until tomorrow. Will she get concerned, no. I think the only reason she called around 1:00pm today was to see what I knew. She knows if I've caught her doing somthing, I can't wait 10 minutes to expose it to her. This site and what I've learned has changed that and so many other things. She may have to wait even longer than tomorrow. I'm on my schedule now! I think I need to read some more and fomulate a stratagy by where she either agrees to some type of Policy of Joint Agreement, which is non negotiable in any way and incudes a verifyable NC rule to which she's held accountable. She needs to realize that it's not IF she gets help, but WHEN she gets it! If she goes ape, I tell her sorry, at some point in your life you will realize how truely ill you are and then have to seek help. Fortunalty, you have a devoted husband that still cares for you, but he cannot force you to do what's right. But will I still be there when your ready? I don't know. But I do know it's just a matter of time before she totaly self destructs. I've got to make her realize that I'm on the road to recovery already, by being here. She's got a lot further to go than me and hasn't even started yet.

She can work with me by starting the day I decide to tell her, or she can take her chances that I'll still be willing WHEN she comes back. If she chooses to continue the same path, I expose like you've never seen. Before her furior, I'll let her know that because of her decission to disredard me, I must cut all contact with her, phone, email, text, ect. When she's ready to get help for her issues and truly work on our marriage, hopefully for her, I'll still be willing, but who knows?

I'm starting to doze off at the keyboard, so good night and thanks again so much. I don't know how I'd of made it without you guys. Just as the flight attendant tells you in the airplane, if traveling with a child, put YOUR oxygen mask on first, then your childs. It may not work the other way around!!!! It does feel good to be in control!

Fooled~

Can you afford to call the Harleys? I REALLY think that you need to do this and could benefit immensely from it...what do you think?

Mrs. Wondering

fooled, I'm so sorry to read what you're going through. I've read through your thread and strongly agree with the Wonderings. I worked for years as a psychiatric nurse and the information they've given you about bipolar disorder is 100% accurate. I have nothing to add to the advice they've given except to say, if you haven't already done so, I'd copy it out and reread it frequently!

The only other piece of advice I'd add is based on how much I relate to your story from my own personal experience. My WH is an addict/alcoholic who, I believe has many bipolar traits. He hasn't been diagnosed, in fact rages at the notion that he has any problem at all, but his sister has been diagnosed bipolar but refuses to acknowledge the diagnosis, and also has substance abuse issues. His mother, who died last week of Alzheimer's also had some bipolar traits.

My WH is very charismatic with infectious enthusiasm that draws people to him. But living with him was like being caught in a tornado of lies, multiple addictions, multiple affairs, and mood swings. I too was fooled often and felt like a fool.

The advice I have has to do with you. Why have you chosen first an alcoholic and then a (probably) bipolar woman to marry? I ask because I had to do a lot of serious self-examination myself in order to begin healing, including IC and regular attendance at Al-Anon because of WH's alcoholism/addiction. I'm not telling you to divorce your wife. I'm suggesting you get some personal counselling/coaching to look at your own attraction to seriously disturbed women, just like I had to look at my own attraction to seriously disturbed men (WH wasn't the first alcoholic in my life) and to learn what your boundaries are.

My H has been gone for almost 5 years. I tried to recover our marriage for about 1 1/2 years before ending contact. During that time, we attended a marriage workshop - not Retrouvaille, though - while we were separated and he was lying to me that he'd ended relationship with MOW when in fact they were living together! Clearly the weekend did not save our marriage!

Before I ended contact, my WH loved me one minute and hated me the next and lied to me constantly... He threw me and the kids out and moved MOW in, then threw a "kegger" party for a group of teens (he was 47 years old!) and had a non-stop party for several weeks until I filed for divorce and got a restraining order allowing me and the kids back into the house... He broke into the house 4 times, kicked in the door, threw tomatoes all over the kitchen, tore a door off it's hinges, threw stuff everywhere, etc... he threatened suicide and was taken in for psychiatric evaluation but convinced the professionals he was ok... he rolled his car with a blood alcohol of 0.28 and was airlifted to a trauma center where he was strapped on a guerney in the ER for 5 days because his behavior was too erratic to admit him to a regular medical bed...

Since I completely ended contact, he's lost his driver's license and his professional license... his son, my DSS, committed suicide (also a victim of the disease?)... he slashed his wrists and was hospitalized for 3 days... he hasn't worked in 5 years while I've supported him by running our business (which used to mean so much to him) alone... his life is a constant "party" according to his neighbors with kids about his son's age, including MOW... he broke down crying in front of my lawyer and me, telling me he still loves me... he took me to court, then sat in his car ini the parking lot during the hearing, and when I came out "someone" had "keyed" the whole left side of my car...

Get the picture? Don't you think to yourself, "Why the heck did you stay with him so long?" I don't believe in divorce either and WH is an intelligent and charismatic man with a chameleon-like ability to be everything you want him to be, whoever you are. But, even Steve Harley recommended divorce after speaking to and listening to my WH scream obscene verbal abuse at me in the background during one of our calls. On other calls, of course, he was his reasonable, charming self, only concerned about all the ways I hadn't met his EN's that MOW was meeting so well.

I'm a breast cancer survivor and I, too, felt the affects of continued contact on my health. As I said, I'm supporting him (court ordered) so I'm also feeling the financial effects (though his version is I "stole" everything from him).

Bottom line, get help for YOURSELF. In Al-Anon, we use the analogy of the stewardess' instructions to put the oxygen mask on yourself first before trying to help anyone else. I think that analogy applies in your situation as well.

Good Morning!

Wow, what a day yesterday!

I've got so much I want to say and follow up to from yesterday but have a couple of business matters to handle, so it's going to be later this afternoon before I can elaborate.

Thanks so much Wonderings, and everyone else for all your support in my time of crisis. Good nights sleep = fresh head and outlook!

Spoke with W late last night and brought up OM3. Was very carefull to handle it delicate, with NO ANGER whatsoever! All positive. That's what she says she cant stand is my reaction!! We'll as it turns out, that seems to be just another one of her twisted Fantacies I now know and reffer to as "DLand"! Her name begins with D.

I feel like I was hit with a ton of bricks last night in regards to "reality". It all makes so much sense to me now and I cant wait to tell more! It's obvious that DLand is not a good place for my WS to be, although I doubt she'll ever check out. Classic, textbook BP. I also read a while back about "Narccistic Personality Disorder (sp)", which I believe describes her about as well.

Needless to say, she's taken none of this "Retro" weekend or anything else regarding our marriage counseling seriously, referring to the fact all contact with OM must be cut of prior to attending with, "well, you just asked me if I wanted to go, and I said yes?" Lying, deception, and self-centered, self-interest behavoir is all I really believe she's capable of, and likely ever will be until checking out of DLand! "Nothing wrong with her, it's everyone else who's crazy, and I'm on the
top of the list"! - The first road sign you see when entering DLand!

I can't wait to get back and write some more, but I've got a couple pressing issues I've got to handle first!

Thanks again so much for you help! I don't feel that I'm going crazy anymore!

"I'll be back" - Arnold S!

Later this afternoon!

Fooled

Fooled~

So glad you are getting some clarity here...

I wanted to tell you something that my counselor explained to me that provided me with much needed insight regarding the way that people that have Bipolar Disorder view the world and those in it...

First, they are like children when it comes to impulse control...they only see things that are right here and now, as in...only what's right in front of their face at the time...they don't think ahead, so, say that they see a fur coat that they want for example, they look in their wallet, and there is the money and they immediately take it out and buy the coat without regard for any other financial responsibility that they may have...they don't even begin to think, "Wait, now this is the money that I am suppose to use for my mortgage, my car, groceries, bills, etc..."....NOOOOO...they DO NOT think ahead at all...ABOUT ANYTHING...like a two year old that eats candy before dinner...it's just how they operate. Here's what may help you to understand her...it's hard to hear and grasp, but Oh so true...YOU DO NOT EXIST TO HER UNLESS YOU ARE RIGHT IN FRONT OF HER OR IF SHE DECIDES FOR WHATEVER REASON THAT SHE WANTS YOU TO DO SOMETHING FOR HER!...please read that, and internalize it, it will help you so much...it's not that she does this on purpose, it's just how her brain works...the world is only real to her when she chooses, and then that reality is one of her own creation...knowing that about my dad really helped me to understand that he wasn't intentionally trying to hurt all of us...I hope that it may offer you some comfort...

Look forward to hearing from you later today...glad that you got some much needed rest, keep taking care of you!

Mrs. Wondering

Hey Mrs. Wondering,

Thanks for that recent input. I think I had come to pretty much the same conclusion on most of it, but your input certainly helps confirm it!

I was told a while back that sometimes children that go through a traumatic event (WS loosing her mother to breast cancer after a long battle at age 11), can actually cause them to remain emotionally “stuck” in that age. Or, perhaps that’s what triggered her Bipolar state. WS acting like a child is certainly been the biggest problem I’ve faced. It’s so ironic because I went by to see Mom today and we discussed the same thing about WS only being able to focus on “right now”. It’s so true! She in no way deals with anything except the present. It’s only right now and how that benefits her at the time. Any decisions we’ve made concerning the future, and most events that are in the past have no meaning to her, unless it’s something she blames me for of course. We’ve made so many commitments to each other about things we would do to help our R, but her commitments are literally forgotten within hours. If I remind her of them she’ll deny having made them! It makes me CRAZY!

I don’t know if that makes me feel better or worse that she only thinks of me when I’m right in front of her or if she wants something, but it sure seems true! I had several red flags prior to getting married that really concerned me. Mainly the inconsiderate acts she could do to anyone without any regards! It’s like she didn’t even know! Most people when felt let down by someone won’t think a whole lot about it, but when it’s your spouse that’s a whole different deal.

One of the biggest things I should have paid more attention to was before we were married, one of her best friends since childhood, had a fiancé who jumped off a 6 story parking garage committing suicide. Obviously, her friend was devastated. She asked that WS just be with her the day of the funeral and be with her during it. My WS said, “of course”. The day of the funeral, I reminded her she would be late if she didn’t hurry, and her response to me was “I don’t feel like going”. I pleaded with her to be with her friend at this time of crisis, but she didn’t. She left a voice mail saying she was sick. They never spoke again and it never seemed to bother her.

I should have paid so much more attention to that.

There's much more I want to say, but I’ve got to leave for a few minutes.

Thanks again so much for all your support.

Oh, BTW, I sent my mother a link to this thread and she’s been reading it. She thinks it’s great support. I’ve encouraged her to keep reading, but I don’t think she’ll ever leave a post. Not to comfortable with technology you see. She also told me today that WS once asked her if there was any mental illness that ran in OUR family, because I had been acting mad, which I’m sure I was. My mom said, well no, could it be something your doing? WS said, oh no!

I never said anything because I didn’t think it was relevant, but WS has a bachelor’s degree in Psychology. That and a good vo-tech associate’s degree will get you a good job. Since she doesn’t have the vo-tech, that’s why she’s worked in call centers in the telecommunications industry. No offense to any grads with a BS/BA in Psycology. You really have to get a masters before you can do anything in that field.

More soon!

Dear LetStry,

Thanks for responding. All this support has been more help to me that anyone could ever know.

Why the attraction to emotionally disturbed women?

In the case of first W, it was really a poor choice on my part to get married. I knew of all her issues, but did it anyway. Pressure from her and her parents pushed me some. I was not very religious back then, so I didn’t take the vows thing so seriously. Shows what our culture’s teaching us. She spiraled out of control even worse after our D and so did the guy she ran off with. Several physical assult arrests and DUI’s. She used to attack me physically, and that was very hard to deal with. When you’re a guy, you can’t even defend yourself or you’ll likely get arrested. All I could do was get in the car and leave. I’ve recently heard that she’s been in recovery several years, has re-married, and is doing great. I don’t know how credible the source, but I hope that’s the case.

In the case of current WS, I never had any idea she was emotionally disturbed, prior to our marriage. Keep in mind, what I’ve known in the past about Psychology would fit on a pencil eraser. Every thing I’ve ever learned has come from trying to seek help or figure out my current WS. Her hormones are so “out of whack” it’s crazy! We’ve been to 4 endocrinologist’s, 2 reproductive endocrinologist’s, and a crooked invetrofurtilization (sp?) doctor. No one could figure it out. Her cortisal levels are very low, which is your hormone used to deal with stress. (I’m not saying this as if you don’t know that, but rather to “show off” my new intelligence!) Her testosterone levels are about 4-5 times higher than normal. That one really bothers her because it’s causing her hair to thin out quite a bit. She’s very vain and almost obsessed with her looks. With 40 right around the corner, she’s going to have a harder and harder time running around with all her late 20’s crowd, wearing the mid-drift clothes, and low waist jeans. She still pulls it off pretty good, but it’s getting more difficult. Her 17 hydroxy progesterone levels are weird, and many other things. They really can’t figure it out. OH, ONE BIG THING, she also has “polysitic ovarian syndrome”. I think that’s the correct phrase. I’ve read a lot about the relationship to that and depression or bipolar. I knew that the chemical imbalance fueled the mental imbalance and vice versa. I always thought that if we could get her hormone levels right, her mental state would improve a lot! It never happened. She’s very impatient. If anything’s too difficult, she won’t do it. The first 3 docs were for infertility. As I’ve mentioned before, she’s wanted so desperately to have kids, but has been told now that it’s likely impossible. That’s probably a real good thing. It devastated her, after the last failed invetro, and our marriage really went down hill after that. The 4 other docs, were all in an effort to get her emotionally more stable, by fixing her hormones. I went to most every one of her appointments with her because I so desperately wanted to see her better. She wouldn’t stay on the same treatments long enough to see if they really helped.

When she’s sweet, she’s sweet as can be. She can turn evil on a dime. When we dated (almost a year before getting married), I never saw any mental instability in her. She seemed so normal. Looking back, I can see a lot of signs that should have caused concern, but I didn’t know what to look for then. She loved how I “took care” of her, and asked if I always would, I said yes, I love taking care of you. Of course, you can’t really take care of someone her age. She ultimately has to take care of herself, or not.

Anyway, I can assure you my attraction to them is not because they’re emotionally disturbed. Unless it’s some sub-conscious thing. What do you think that says about me?

I’ve heard great things about Al-anon. Our pastor at our church suggested it for me when he learned of her/our sit. Incredibly, his wife has some very severe issues almost identical to my WS. He confided that to me because of what I was going through. Are sits were very similar. His wife has an addiction to klonopin, as I believe my WS does. The congregation all knew his wife was ill, and couldn’t attend a lot, but no one really knew why. He’s said Al-anon has been such a big help for him. As I understand, it’s support for spouses / relatives with chemical dependency, right. Since I really don’t hold out much hope with my WS, is there any reason to go?

More to come.

Fooled.

The reason to go to Al-Anon is for yourself. I haven't had contact with my WH for over 3 years and I've probably gotten more out of Al-Anon during that time than I did when I was dealing with his chaos daily.

I don't mean to imply there's something wrong with you or that you like the chaos. I hate when people say about someone with an abusive (verbally or physically) spouse that they must enjoy it if they don't leave or they would never put up with it. As you know, it's much more complicated once you're in the relationship and you love the good in the person not the craziness, chaos, and abuse.

But, sometimes we don't have the right radar to detect chaos, usually because of childhood experience. We aren't good at establishing and maintaining appropriate boundaries. We need to feel needed, or at least feel comfortable in the caretaker role. We tend to look for love from people who aren't able to give it, or have difficulty giving it.

This may not apply to you. It may just be coincidence. I was a psych nurse when I met my WH (he was also a psych nurse) so I can't use the excuse of not knowing enough. Living with an alcoholic, addict, or mentally ill person is extremely stressful and sometimes the things that seem reasonable - and would be reasonable if dealing with someone with say, diabetes, cancer, or heart disease - can actually make matters worse. Sometimes it's just a situation in which doing what feels right is wrong and doing the right thing feels wrong. It's similar to dealing with infidelity. That's where Al-Anon can be helpful.

Fooled~

Some really stellar advice from LetSTry, you'd be wise to listen to her...those of us who have lived this stuff really have to stick together.

Until my H, every single person that I dated was very dysfunctional...my brother is now in the process of a D after only two years of marriage based on his choice of an equally dysfunctional W...As I understand it, this is pretty standard stuff for folks that grew up with dysfunctionality of some sort...it is by God's grace alone that I married someone from a very stable background...Lord knows based on what I've done to my H I really don't deserve him...it is that same grace from above that has given me a chance to right what I have done wrong. Luz, I am not trying to imply that you came from an unstable home...however, I do think that, given your history, you may quite possibly benefit from exploring what it is about your personality that causes you to choose people that "need saving".

I think that Al-Anon is a wonderful program. I believe that I was, indeed, benefited by even the short time that I spent in Alateen during my youth. Al-Anon, combined with individual counseling, could definitely provide you with the kind of support that you need in your life right now.

Fooled...how are you today? What's going on? You remain in my thoughts and prayers...

Mrs. Wondering

Fooled,
Based on your posts here about your situation, you will probably get a better feedback, reaction and use of your money counseling with the Harley's instead of going to Retrouvaille ...

An analogy of a Poker Player….

Any poker players reading may understand the following analogy. I’m sure you’ll get it, even if your not.

Prior to meeting my WS, I’d been sitting at the poker table for so long, and being dealt bad hand after bad hand. Then, when we met and fell in love, I felt as though I’d been dealt pocket aces, the best two cards to have in Texas Holdem Poker, so I bet a lot! Money, time, emotion, feelings, ect.

Then came the flop. Oh no, it was nine, ten, jack. I decided not to bet (check) because this reduced my chances of winning significantly. However, another player bet a bunch. He likely had a straight! -A good poker player would have folded right here- But I looked back down at my hand and thought, “This is still a great hand, I could still win with this hand, I believed in my hand”. So I called his bet. *More money, some pain, isolation of friends, ect*.

Then came the turn, it was a king. I looked down and realized I was on a straight draw, and I would have the high straight, all I needed was a queen. I saw renewed hope. Realizing I need one important card still, I didn’t bet (checked). But once again, I was raised by another player. -A good poker player would never call this raise because you’re “betting on the come”. That means you need one specific card out of a possible 13 cards to win. The odds are just too great- But it was a small raise so I decided to take my chances, I called the bet. *More money, more pain, loss of opportunity, and some health*. Well the next player raised the initial bet so I had to match it (call) to stay in. I looked down at my chips and thought, wow, I’ve got a lot invested in this pot, and I hate to fold and loose it all. If I get a queen, I’ll have the nuts (best, unbeatable hand). Another ace would give me a good hand as well, so I called his raise, hoping to get lucky. *More money, betrayal by friends, enduring infidelity, ect. DID I GET THE QUEEN?

Then comes the turn, Oh no, THERE WAS ANOTHER KING. NOW TOO MANY KINGS WERE IN THE PICTURE. This made my hand virtually worthless. Anyone holding a king would beat me, and any one with a queen would have a straight and beat me. I looked at my chips and realized I had over half my stack in this pot. I couldn’t believe how much I’d had invested into what turned out to be this really bad hand. But I did it on the unlikely hopes/chances I’D GET THE QUEEN, BUT I DIDN’T. I was desperate. I knew I was in good position, I was the last one to bet, but my hand was still awful. I thought to my self, if everyone else checks, I could bluff and steal this pot with a decent size bet, hoping no one would call and I’d win. EVEN THOUGH I NEW I DIDN’T HAVE THE QUEEN I NEEDED, WHAT I DID HAVE COULD HAVE BEEN WORSE, AND I WAS WILLING TO TRY AND WIN WITH IT. Sure enough everyone else checked. I bet most all of what I had left hoping everyone else would fold. *More money, a lot of health, more isolation of friends, more betrayal, more infidelity, and even some bad habits.* Everyone folded except for the guy on my right, he not only called, he also raised me by what I had left, which wasn’t much. Was he bluffing hoping I would fold? I realized I had got myself into the worst situation any poker player could be in. If I didn’t call his bet and go all in with what little I had left, I would certainly loose all I had invested. The choices I had were this- bet what little I had left, knowing my chances of winning with this “less than marginal hand” were almost nil. Or, I could fold to play another hand, but I would play that next hand having almost nothing left. I would have to win so many more hands to make up what I’d lost, it almost seemed impossible. The thought of starting over from scratch, this late in the game and with what little I had left, was a very depressing thought. What do I do?

This is the position I’ve found myself in for so long. I just kept getting deeper and deeper into it, and now I’ve got virtually nothing left. Most all my friends are gone, my health is worse, I’ve lost so many opportunities, sold my house I loved prior to marriage which was over half paid for, and I’m very near broke with POS car, and marginal credit.

I did all this because I believed in my hand. It looked so promising at first. I believed it when she used to tell me, it didn’t matter where we lived, even a tent on the river would be fine as long as we’re together. Well, after buying and selling 3 houses in five years, moving 5 times, all because they weren’t right to her, I don’t think she meant that either.

Well, just as I’m not a professional poker player, I’m not a relationship professional either. It would have been easy to avoid either one of these scenarios if I had been.

I hope this analogy helps anyone reading to understand how I feel, and the thought of folding with so much invested.

I’ve had this analogy in my head for so long, and I’ve been wanting to write it, so I did?

I’ll write more later on. Thanks again for everyone’s support.

Fooled99

Hey Wonderings,

I just read your post after posting the one above. I hope it's not too silly. It really helps me to relate to my sit.

I'm doing well today. Some good business developments look very promising and lucrative.

Yes, I believe Retro would be a waste of money and that money would be better spent trying to help myself. I'm going to look into it and Dr. Harley’s help

I'm wish I had more time to respond. I'm hoping to get some advice on where best to turn now to help myself recover. I'll write more about that later. It's been a very busy, but good day today! But because of how much everyone here has helped me, I wanted to drop a quick update. I couldn't put a price on how much this forum has helped me and I'll be eternally grateful for it. My hope is that someday I can help someone else here in the same way I've been helped. Pass it on!!!

Thanks again, I'll be sure to write more later.

Fooled.

WS called me late last tonight. I didn’t answer the phone (avoiding all contact). I did check her message about 45 minutes later and heard her crying almost hysterically, talking in an unintelligible manner. I felt I had to call back.

She seemed like she was going to do something desperate. She’s been staying at Bro and Sis’s house since we separated, and said they were being mean to her. Well. I know from past experience, when you don’t validate her irrational behavior, your being mean. I’ve been mean for a long time under the same guise.

I called her back and she was still crying so hard I could barely understand her. She said she was sitting in the driveway in her car with nowhere to go, and didn’t want to go on anymore. When she first called she wanted to know if she could come over to our house and spend the night, but now she didn’t want to. I asked what was wrong. She had seemed fine the day before. Once again her response was “everything”. I said, “If you want to tell me then I’ll listen, but “everything” means nothing to me”.

Long story short, this went on for a couple hours. I told her she needed to get help and I would take her to the Crisis Center. At first she wanted to go, but as usual changed her mind in the next 10 minutes. She called later and said she was at the Church we attend and got married, right around the corner from Bro and Sis’s house. She was crying because no one was there. I said “there’s never anyone there at 12:30AM”. She checked to see if the doors were unlocked, I don’t know why?

Later, she called me from Bro and Sis’s telling me not to worry, she was in bed and going to sleep. But the way she said it implies sleep or perhaps suicide. I asked how many Klonopins she’d taken. She kept saying I don’t know. I finally figured from what she had said it was about eight, which doesn’t concern me a lot, I’ve seen her take more than that. They are the small ones, .5mgs. I take them when I fly because it scares me to death, but I only fly about twice a year. I’ve had as many as 5 and just get drowsy and usually sleep, which I’ve never done before on an airplane. I kept her on the phone for quite some time to make sure she stayed awake which she did. I told her if she didn’t do this I’d call an ambulance. She didn’t want that as it’s happened before. Sis called before we even met when she was concerned of the same thing. She spent two nights in hospital that time.

After she calmed down, she text messaged asked if I would visit her if she checked herself into the hospital. I said I wasn’t sure, it depended on the situation. I’d made a promise to take care of myself as well. She said that she wouldn’t be going then. I told her she needed to do this regardless of me, but I would help however I could. I also told her that I’ve been told, and I agree, I should have no contact with her as long as her affairs continue because it’s killing me. That was our last conversation.

I know I may have sounded harsh, but her talk of suicide has gone on for years, and that's all it's been, talk. I take her more seriously than anyone in her family, but they've heard it much longer than me. I know without a doubt there is an element of "getting attention" to her threats. It does get my attention!

What's to make of her behavior?

Fooled

Hey Wonderings & LetStry,

My WS says she really wants to get help for her BP disorder. Of course, that’s subject to change at any time.

She asked if I knew where she could get help. I said I thought so, but really have no idea.

Anyone have any advice on how to find a good Psychiatrist? What to look for? What questions to ask, ect. I’m saying Psychiatrist because they’re the only ones who can prescribe the meds she needs. I don’t want to involve her Cousin Psychiatrist. If anyone cares to send me a personal message, I’ll tell where I live.

I’m addressing this to the Wonderings because of their long battle with this same disorder, and LetStry, because of being a psyc nurse, but anyone else with advice would be appreciated. I know how crucial the Therapist can be. An incompetent one can do more harm than good.

Any advice would be appreciated.

Thanks,

Fooled.

Fooled~

Please contact me www.the_wonderings@yahoo.com and let me know where you live...my dad is currently part of a medical study with an amazing psychiatrist...even if he's not in your area, he is an expert in the field and might have a good reference...I'm going to try and call my dad and get the doctor's number in just a bit...

I also have other stuff to write to you...I haven't forgotten about you...I've just been busy...I'm going to try and post to you sometime today...

Hang in there...

Mrs. Wondering

Well I’ve got to tell you that I did come from a dysfunctional family, NO FAULT OF MY MOM. My father decided to leave us for OM, yes you heard right! This was when I was about 12 years old. I’ve only discussed this with about 4 or 5 people in my whole life.

He was insistent on letting his choices of life be known openly. This was difficult for me because I never new the reason they divorced. He had contact through visitation with us. We stayed with him on the weekends, and his lifestyle. A lot of my friends made fun of him and probably me behind my back. I was the oldest son with a brother 1 year younger, and a sister 4 years older. For my Sis, I don’t think this was a big issue, but for me it was somewhat devastating and very embarrassing. Male thing you see.

Perhaps I should have been told the truth from the beginning, I don’t know. It was my Moms desire that we weren’t told, and that caused me to have to figure it out myself. Although I suspected, that didn’t happen until I was about 19 years old. I tried to shield my younger brother from the ridiculement of friends by making excuses for the way my Father was. I IN NO WAY BLAME MY MOM FOR THE DIFFICULT DECISSION SHE HAD TO MAKE. I think under the same circumstances, I would have done the exact same thing. She was trying to make the best of a horrible situation.

I haven’t had contact with him in 20 years. My Sis had contact up until her first child was born and he insisted on not being indiscrete regarding his lifestyle when visiting. Her oldest is a son. My Sis and her husband drew the line there. They said, no way. So Sis hasn’t had contact with him for over 16 years.

My younger brother is the only one who still has contact. I hope to think it’s because of my efforts to take the brunt of the humiliation, but who knows?

I’ve been told by counselors and another Pastor that I need to confront these issues with him. I don’t know. He’s getting very old, and now lives 1500 miles away. I saw him at my brother’s wedding about 3 years ago, but we did not speak. Sis was horrified he would approach her and the kids would ask about him. I told her I’d make it very, very clear to him not to approach them if she would like.

In the end it all seemed to work out ok.

My Sis and her husband are VERY successful. They’re both attorneys although she only practiced for about 1 ½ years, and then quit to have kids.

My brother has built a very successful business that I’m so proud of him for doing. They both enjoy very good lifestyles. Now I feel like the failure.

I hope this better explains my dysfunctional upbringing. Oh, btw, Mom says when they attended counseling prior to divorce; counselor told her he had severe Narcissistic Personally Disorder. Much like my WS, everything was always about him!

Oh, and another thing about that.

My mom and WS, used to talk a lot as they would spend time together. Mom used to tell WS about her WS (my father). She said how outraged he would get sometimes. I suppose I do have an angry streak in me, but it only comes out when I’m really pushed. A good friend of mine said once that “you’re the nicest guy in the world until you’re forced into a corner, then you come out fighting.”

Anyway, upon hearing this info from my mom, and knowing the relationship between my father and me, WS couldn’t wait to use that to her advantage. Anytime we got into a heated argument, she would call me by my father’s first name. She’s never even met him.

I rarely get angry except when it’s emotional. The only thing that I’m real emotional about is WS. In business situations I deal with conflict all the time. I’ve always had a cool head and never lost my temper, not even once. When I see other’s doing it I remind them how unproductive it is. The only thing I really get angry at WS about is her disregard for our marriage, ie: affairs. I know I should take my own advice as far as that’s concerned too, but it’s difficult.

I am somewhat to very hard of hearing. Too many rock concerts when I was younger I suppose. This causes me to talk loud. Also, when I was young, they couldn’t hear me in class, so I was forced to stand in another room and speak load enough to where I could be heard. It worked! Those too things combined cause me to talk very loud sometimes, and I don’t even realize it. People sometimes mistake that for yelling, which it’s not. But I can see their confusion. WS says she can’t stand my yelling, but most of the time, I’m not. In a passionate discussion I can see how someone would make that mistake. She says, it’s abusive to yell. I remind her that our Pastor “yells” at us every Sunday! Pastors always raise their tone to make a dramatic effect. I don’t consider it abuse.


Fooled.