Those are quite different - in those cases, the people already knew/liked/loved each other BEFORE the trauma. So it's not like their life is upside down when they meet and start a relationship, like you did with your GF. You met your GF DURING her trauma, and I doubt that she was/is in the right frame of mind to choose a healthy partner. She needed a crutch.

How long have you been dating her?

AGG

HF - Goodguy reminded me of something from my own past. In the time I met my 2nd and 3rd husbands, I was in crisis after big events. I know I greatly admired my 2nd husband for some really good advice he gave me on my situation at that time, and I was enamored of my 3rd husband because he was a white knight at another time of need.

Later I found that they were not the men I thought they were. I had probably projected very wonderful pictures of what I wanted onto them because they were such a wonderful help in my crisis.

There is room for more than one scenario in your case I think. If the new wears off for her and she sees that you are still a warm and decent guy then a relationship is possible. If the new wears off and she thinks she has been misled, then it may end up a rebound relationship. If the new wears off and she sees you as a nice guy but not "the" guy, then again it may break off.

I guess the best advice I can give you is to be a rock. Be a constant in her life - her friend. Encourage her to make her own decisions and give her room to grow.

V.

HF,
Letsee....

I "clouded" his healing because I made him feel so good, he didn't do the work he needed to do. For example: - he didn't learn to rely on himself, his friends, his family, and God for happiness, fulfillment and survival in day-to-day life.

His kids needed him, and they needed to work together to make a new way of life together, and he didn't focus enough on them (too much on me).

I believe this is the main thing - - > since he wasn't whole when we started, I kept "waiting" for him to become different. *We* kept waiting for that last piece to fall into place. Sorta like everyone else is saying... as he began to heal, it still didn't fill in the gaps of what I was needing in the relationship, and what he was needing in his life.

More specifically, he didn't have a good handle on taking care of his house and managing his kids. I kept thinking things would change - he would adjust - its a part of his growth and adjustment without his W - he just needed time to become a whole person and be able to manage that part of his life. It never happened. So, to answer your question about incompatibility... perhaps, yes. Kids (teenagers) was the main deciding issue, but an issue that could have been avoided if he had time to build those muscles on his own.

You asked how he figured out that he dated too soon. There were times during our relationship that he said it... that he probably dated too soon. But we were on the ground running, and tried to make it work the best we could. But in order for him to REALLY REALLY grasp it... it took a hard break-up on my part... of me saying "it's OVER"... it's not working... not doing this anymore... and then some time, grieving, and he had to go to counseling to work through his issues with breaking up with ME, AND the issues that resurfaced from his W ... in order for him to work through and better understand what happened. He knows... he says... he sought me for refuge. I was his lighthouse in a storm. Peace, calm, stability... away from the pain and memories of his W and the trouble his kids were going through. I wanted to help him through this, and I thought I could. But it only put a bandaid on it....

I am so appreciative of all the thought & effort each has given to me on this matter. Another big THANK YOU to each.

AGG ~ I've known her since June. 1 month after her divorce was final. We've seen each other every weekend since June 11.

Clearly this is running kind of like 99% on the side of this being a RR & not having much of a chance to succeed. I "get it."

Also, I'm hearing -- it's very difficult to know what's best to do given the feelings & compatibility we already have.

I'm hearing -- something interesting from Faith1: sounds to me like there was a basic incompatibility centered around kids & discipline as well as house keeping etc. My question becomes, what if you would have surfaced that as an area of concern early on? What if he would have been given opportunity to correct it & then if it didn't you would have broken up? Would that have changed the dynamics at all? Rather than you just waiting for him to "get over" his loss & making an excuse for his behavior given the timing? I mean if you were to meet him now & there were still these issues, wouldn't you have to deal with them & see changes before you could go forward?

So I guess I would ask a couple of questions at this time:

1. If I choose to stay in this and see it through; it seems I would be better off to immediately surface all areas of significant concern as soon as they arise. Wouldn't that offer some sort of protection against just becoming a facilitating RR?

2. If I insist on her going to counseling in order for us to continue, wouldn't that provide some sort of window of opportunity to make this succeed rather than become a RR?

3. If we persist in forcing ourselves to do a very VERY open & honest level of communication all along, won't that be a level of protection against failure as a RR? Also, if there were things that came up that just couldn't be negotiated, then we break it off intentionally rather than suffering through the pain of a long drawn out RR that fails?

AGG ~ You are on target when you say this is gonna be serious WORK! But then again, what worthwhile relationships aren't serious work????

Karona ~ Yep, you've read me like a book. I'm so not a quitter. I have to see things through to feel I gave it my best shot. I.E. if any of you are ever passengers on my jet when the chips are down & stuff is going wrong - be glad for this trait in me!! Hahaha I don't quit!!! I keep working to solve the problem all the way to the end. Got this from my Dad, etc.

High Flight

HF, to answer your last questions:

1. No. This isn't about what you do or what the two of you do together. It is about her not being ready for a relationship. Take all the care you will, but she has to go throught the grieving process and she's already cutting corners being in a relationship. She will not make good sound judgements right now. She will continue to allow you to facilitate her, but this will not necessarily mean that you have any better chance of the relationship making it.

2. You have no right to insist that she do anything. You may suggest it, but the choice is her's to make. It she needs therapy, she must choose to do it for herself, not because you make it a condition for continuing a relationship. If you think this is something you must have, then you must end the relationship. And if she does go into therapy, I can almost gaurantee that one of the first things the therapist is going to tell her is that she need to end the relationship and focus on herself for awhile.

3. Open and honest communication is always preferrable and is one of the keys to a good, healthy relationship. But it's only one of the keys. Another, even more important, is that both parties be emotionally healthy. You know what? At this point in your very short relationship, the only thing that should need negotiating is where you're going to take dinner or what movie you are going to watch. This relationship is in it's infancy and already your life is becoming waaaaaay too complicated. This is far more work than should be required of a relationship so young. My old gray haired mother used to tell us that if a courtship is full of strife and requires a lot of work to keep it going, the marriage is going to require more than you have.

I think you really like this woman and I appreciate that, but I believe your trying to force this to work. The honest truth is that the harder you force this to work, the less likely it is that it will.

Awesome question, High Flight. You know my answer? It's that the right relationships do NOT require serious work. In the right relationship, you are compatible, you are both emotionally healthy and ready, and so you truly can enjoy your lives together. There is no drama. There is no serious work needed, not after three months of dating. Nor should there be!

So in a way, you have answered your own question. The fact that you just started dating and you are dealing with all these issues and problems is a huge red flag that you should not be in this relationship. Relationships between people who are not ready usually feel passionate, awesome, and intense (reread our loving bashing of Lordslady's thread on the "L" word). But there always seems to be a lingering issue that needs to be conquered together before everything is right. It's drama, even though it feels like passion.

It sounds to me (correct me if I am wrong) like you are saying this - "If only she got therapy then all would be well". Do you know how bad it sounds to an outsider to hear that? It is really a bad sign that that is how you feel about things. Why would want to date someone who has many issues to conquer, and who can't do it with you in the picture? Besides, emotional therapy is not the same as getting a tooth pulled or a broken bone reset - emotional therapy is a long, arduous, and extremely difficult and unpredictable process. It's not like getting your car's oil changed. You don't know how long her "therapy" would take, and how she will come out of it. You can't "fix" her.

I have been in a similar situation, dating someone right after my divorce, and she was in the same boat. So I know how it can seem that everything was perfect, we were so compatible, etc etc. But as time went on and we each healed, I realized she was nothing like I thought, because my fog lifted. I can't say for sure, but I suspect that one or both of you is in a similar place.

I don't know your story, but how long have you been divorced?

Anyway, we can toss this around forever, but realize that to most of us impartial outsiders, this is a no brainer. I know you are involved, I know you are attached, I know you feel like she is your soulmate, and so I don't expect or want you to dump this lady just because we told you to do so <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />. But I hope you listen to our words, and keep them in the back of your mind for now.

I strongly dislike the idea of dating someone who is a "diamond in the rough"; I feel that it is a euphemism for drama or trying to change someone.

If it were me, I would cut my losses and move on. BTW, how old are all the kids involved, and have they been brought into this relationship?

AGG

I think there's your answer then HF!!

Give it all you can, and it will work the way it's meant to.

It's good to know there are pilots like you!!

Take care,
Karona

not going to mince words. . .

probability of long term sucess, low, very low. . .
reason . . her lack of healing from two emotional traumas.
reason. . . your social immaturity.

Basically, because you are asking these questions, you shouldn't be considering a long term relationship. . . why? because you don't know enough about how relationships work, if you did, you would know these answers.

If you had lots of dating experience with different kinds of women, you would be able to assess the situation very easily, and confidently. . . and wouldn't be making excuses or asking if the laws of human nature can change, just for you. .. learn your probabilities and you will have your answer.

wiftty

If I met him today, I would run. Housecleaning is one thing, but discipline is another, and being a step-mom to teens, with a Dad that can't handle them is not something I want. As a new single-Dad when I met him, it was something I thought he needed time to adjust to.

Regardless, I don't want you to think that was the only issue. You are going into a relationship with serious questions/issues as well, with the hopes that things will change, improve, heal, and get better. Like someone else said "well, if she'll seek therapy, we'll be OK". Your relationship is lop-sided, and you are the healthy one. Co-dependant/dependant relationships are never healthy. They can survive. But you need to learn about being a codependant. You are trying to take a sick person as she is, and there will be many destructive patterns developing if you pursue this. If she was an alcoholic, you would not pursue a relationship, would you? Hoping she would get help? Hoping she would get better?

If you decide to pursue this, please learn some more... and yes... please ask her to seek outside counseling....

As I said... my relationship did not end in disaster, and we have no regrets. But it did not last. Perhaps, if he had sought proper assistance (counseling), we could have had a lasting relationship. (and yes, to answer your question, I asked him to resolve the issues, gave him chances, and we tried together, and he didn't do what he needed to do, and we couldn't resolve them)

This is key. Very much what I was going to say. Now I don't have to. (Thanks Faith1.)

A quickie reply cause I have a 4:45 AM departure in the morning. I'm listening. I recognize the limits some of you have with your points of view simply because there's absolutely no way to communicate every single fact in detail.

Nevertheless, I'm gaining from this, and I appreciate all who've written - even those I disagree with.

I'll respond more when I get through the next 4 flights or so.

God bless our poor fellow Americans in the Gulf Coast region.

High Flight

Excellent question. I believe it is true for everyone - if for no other reason than we have to sort out the parts of ourselves that were on the "we team" from those that were (and still are) on the "me" team.

Personal observation - if you are interested: I moved out in December, and spent the first 6 months fairly happy. I went for days - no, weeks - without thinking about my former life or my H. I even started feeling like I've lived here forever and no longer remember the routine of my former life.

Fast forward. D-Day is now a year old. Some things have happened in the past 3 months that have totally turned the tables on me. I'm back in the midst of craziness - trying to get the actual D finalized. But, I'm now also feeling pain and grief like I couldn't imagine before. I thought I was hurting before... NOT! And this is not about missing my H - it is about the "me" who was lost for so many years. The "me" I no longer know, the one I compromised during my M. The one who was fooled, and now feels foolish - the one who is afraid to love or trust again. I don't know where she came from - she wasn't around last winter, but now - here she is!

Nobody was more surprised by this than me. For what it's worth.

I had much the same thing. I think sometimes we put off our grief very successfully for fairly long periods of time without realizing that we haven't completely processed it. I've seen it happen more than once with family and friends as well as myself. When it all starts to come bubbling up and out, it strikes us harder because we are unprepared for it - having convinced ourselves that we are really ok.

I've read many many articles and books about psychology and emotions and almost all psychologists and counselors agree on the idea that grief follows a very predictable course, and if it seems not to have done so, it is more likely that you haven't really allowed yourself to go through the natural process. I know that just recently I weathered a small loss crisis in my life with a great deal of calm and was very proud of myself to have dealt with it so well... however, lately I am finding myself on the verge of tears regularly for no reason - like last night when my sister's cat paid me a visit and I stood outside on my porch holding her, petting her and sobbing like a baby for no other reason than the poor thing was outside all alone in the dark (- she's an outdoor cat - she's ALWAYS outside in the dark!). Reaction just a little out of proportion to the situation...

DejaVu, I'm sorry that this is throwing you for a loop... I hated that, after having been physically separated for the better part of 3 years from my ex - and dealing very well after going to Plan B, I was a basket case when the divorce decree came in the mail, and for weeks afterward. Actually, I think that can sometimes be a not so pleasant after effect of Plan B - sure, you eventually lose all your love, but you don't really grieve if you go into it still hoping for reconciliation.

CS