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Mr. Wondering...
That is awesome (of course, you are an attorney). Luz, this is the kind of thing I am talking about. Documenting everything. You could rewrite what he said here in yoru own words, in order to not make it look like or feel like it came from a lawyer, but instead from you. She will be less suspicious that way.
Make sure NOTHING you say or write can be used against you. Couch your words. Take time to think them thru before saying or writing them. Think about them first, and what a person outside of the situation might think. See if her perspective that she will give the judge will ring true to him (even if it isnt true). Be very careful.
Men already start off i nthe hole with custody. there is a bias toward women. Because of that, I have found attorneys to not work as hard for women because they see it as open and shut. In today's world, that is not true!! but you will have to do your homework. You will have to set things up. You will have to anticipate actions and reactions. You need to hand your lawyer the perfect case. One where he has to use a dolly to carry all of the evidence in.
Ask Mr. Wondering...would an attorney rather have a woman who has just her word to go off of (and a woman who has committed adultery and done some other unsavory things)? Or would an attorney want to have a father that has been fully engaged in the family, upstanding, who has done his homework and plopped a ton of evidence in his lap that documents how good the husband has been, and how bad the wife has been?
Luz, you may still save your marriage. Odds are that you will (most affairs do not lead to divorce). But, as Steve Harley told me, the best draw for your wife to wake up and work on the marriage would be for me to have the children. Besides the fact that I have been the stable parent for the past 4 years.
So fight hard and smart. Get her to admit things, to talk about things. To write things down. have a recorder in your pocket during all interactions. Recorded conversations cannot be used in most states EXCEPT to show that a person has committed perjury.
One thing mentioned earlier...when you do these things...when you are vague about your life, and she is left thinking that you are doing things that you really arent...then in court, her attorney will look like a fool as he asks questions that have no answers...because they never happened. Never lie. Just answer your wife about these things in a way that is truthful, but leaves her mind to wander into what is possible.
look, if she could commit adultery, she darn sure thinks you can. So, if yo uare aloof...if she isnt quite sure where you are on a particular evening, then what is she gonna think? And when she confronts you, instead of sayin "No honey, I am not out with any women having an affair," instead you should say something like "I got out for a little while and blew off some steam." And leave it at that. Truthful, but vague. Let her imagination run wild.
My wife even this week brought up a time when in the affair she thought I was seeing someone. I wasnt, but she did not know that and I did not try to dispel it. I just sat and listened to her accuse me.
You see, while in the fog, it is hard for your wife to see anything clearly. Outside of the fog, you can see everything clearly. So, when you go to court, as with my wife's attorney, and you make her attorney do all of this work for naught, her attorney will do as mine did and stammer and lose focus...and lose his case. And believe me, attorneys do not like to look bad in front of the judge.
So, start getting intel. Start amassing evidence...no piece is to small. Do things that will set your wife up to either admit to things she has done or lie. That way, she either tells the truth in court (which will be bad for her) or she will lie (which will be worse for her). Either way, you win.
One more thing. Do not tell her what you have or what you are doing. "I will take all of the evidence that I have collected against you and will win." Nope, dont do this. Let her and her attorney think that they have a typical wife who doesnt need to go the extra mile to get their case together. Then, the day of the custody hearing...as in my case...the wife's attorney will walk in with a briefcase with several documents in it. And your attorney will walk in with three boxes of evidence...and an open-and-shut case.
Get the kids in the house with you if she has left. She is free to go... the kids are not. Do not ever say that you are for them being with her. The judge will say then "well, if she is that bad, why did you agree for them to stay with her?" Never agree with them leaving the family home except for visits. They are to stay in their home, in their beds, at their school. Defend this. Check with your lawyer on the ramifications on if your wife decides that she is going to move them anyway...then how you can hold onto them until the hearing. You dont want to be seen as keeping them from their mother (I gave my wife access and let them go spend the night every moment that she had). But I did draw boundaries (they could not spend the night on school nights).
Protect those kids. Your wife is not capable of that right now. This is priority number one right now!
In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Why do you believe you should have custody of your children? - Because I love them more than anything else in my world and I put them ahead of all my own personal wants and needs (unlike W who chooses her career). I know she loves her children very much but she loves her career just as much. I sacrificed my very successful career 6 years ago (took $25K pay cut too) just to be with her and the our first child more. She is not able to make the same sacrifice.
- Because I have been their primary care giver over the last 3 or 4 years. I am so glad to be the primary care giver and my W's career has allowed/helped me to be.
- Because she is (subconsciously) not able to and/or not willing to take care of the children full-time (and keep her career too).
- Because her selfishness (career and affair) proves that her wants and needs come before anything else, even above what's best for the children. I cannot trust who she has become and cannot trust her decision making abilties.
- Because, legistically, it is more feasible. Again her career. She works 14-15 shifts 3 days a week and still picks up extra days at her old job. She works over an hour away, I work 10 mins. away from the children. Her job regularaly takes her out of state for days and even a week at a time.... mine does not.
I can go on... and will go into greater detail a little later. Okay, these are good. And a start. but you must document all of this. show day-to-day journals showing every hour that the kids are up and what they did and who was involved. Document, get evidence. Once I get my affidative done, I'll post it here for your and others review. The tricky part of this is stating my reasoning without coming off like I am just revengful. Okay. Sounds good. remember, leave no stone unturned. And if you believe you should have custody, how far are you willing to go in order to get that? As far as I have too to do whats best for my children. Simple enough. And that should be your focus!! Do whatever it takes. unlike some of the BSs here without kids, you have several little ones that are depending on you not to fail. So dont. Look them in the eye everyday and tell yourself that you are fighting for their family and even for their mom. This whole thing will change their lives if your marriage fails, if they are allowed to go off with your fogged-out wife. Do not let that happen. Make their home safe and what they have always known. Let your wife know that you do not want this, but that she is free to leave anytime. But the kids stay with the family. If she wants to leave the family, then fine. But you are for protecting the kids and protecting the family. It is an awful lonely place for a WS who leaves the family unit and has to look in at the family continuing on without her. Continuing on with Christmas as usual (happened with me). Coming over and seeing the kids eating at the family table...or running around the house as if everythign is normal. It is as if they have moved on without her. They havent...they miss her. The family needs her. But to her, it is as if she has been almost forgotten. A very lonely place and one where she will most likely have to go to hit bottom...and want to come back to where she is supposed to be. keep up the good work. We are here for you in the good fight. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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In hindsight you may consider adding another paragraph to document the affair and infidelity. Lastly, whether or not we ever reconcile I think you will agree that our children should not be exposed to Dr. Can't-keep-his-old-wrinkly-hands-off-my-wife while we remain married. I appreciate that you have not done this to date and hope you can honor that wish until our issues have been resolved. It would be confusing to the little ones and may jeopardize any relatioship you would ever hope to achieve with OM or the relationship between OM and our children. Finally, it is with deep regret that I request that if you intend to continue to date/see OM please try to arrange your schedule with me so I can cover for you more effectively in front of the children. Your dissappearances and unaccounted for time has been so difficult to explain to them. If she has exposed the children to the OM then definitely document that. Also, are far as covering for her, you can decide later if you really want to lie to your children about this situation. The letter is just a disguised attempt to document her activities. In drafting it remember her priorities are herself first and then the children so angle everything like its in her best interest. Also - in case she doesn't respond, you want as much in this email as possible so you get it all documented in one attempt. If you keep doing it without getting any response then your intentions will become more obvious. I'm guessing also that the more you put in the more chance she'll be compelled to respond and her response will more likely miss the point of dispelling your factual details. She will more likely respond with anger and give you better ammo. Good Luck - Mr. Wondering
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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Was the OM in your situation in the medical field or a MD? No. She met him at the gym. How did they meet? Do they work together? Same hospital? Yes, he regularly sees his patients in my W's clinic. Supposedly, he had just broken up with his GF and turned to my W for advice. And she turned to him for advice about the troubles we have been having. Well, that was the story which has proven to be wrong. OM and GF only split up for a little over a month and this wasn't until several months after OM and my W started talking. She has a different full-time job now but still sees him there once a week. She has been telling me she was going to quit her old job for the last 4-5 months and still has it to this day. Dont worry about trusting her. The point of exposure to her is not to get her on your side. It is to get her to get on OM's butt. And to take the secrecy out of the affair (affairs thrive in secrecy). So dont worry about trusting her. Look at Gramn's thread. He gave info to the OMW and got nothing in return. He still gives her info when needed, and expects nothing from her. But, he got what he wanted which was OMW going after her marriage, which put a huge problem on the OM. THAT is what this guy's girlfriend can do to him. I have already taken the secrecy out of the A by exposing to everyone except for her new, full-time job (boss). This is my last Ace in the hole. Actually, I think she will actually quit this job once she realizes that the court will see that her hours are not condusive of getting primary custody of the kids. This will be her last Ace so to speak. OM's GF left a pyschotic v-mail on my W cell of which she let me hear. GF was wacko. I called GF next day to confront her about it and she to this day denies leaving the message. This only proves that the GF cannot be trusted so I told her that I wouldn't be calling her anymore. No she left with the kids. I stayed. I called the local sheriff and they said the mother has all of the rights until the courts mandate otherwise. So I had to let them go. They are all back in the home now and she said she wuld stay as long as we can get along. What state do you live in? I have never heard of a state that has laws that state that the mother has all rights until a court decides. Two things judges are looking for when it comes to custody: 1. Where do they live now; and 2. Who provides the emotional, educational, religious, etc support and instruction to the kids. That includes who is providing bad support or unhealthy lifestyles for the kids. You must document how you are being all the good things...and how she is messing up. That judge knows neither of you. I have been the primary care giver for the last 3 years at least.... ever since she started working out of town. This cannot be disputed in court. My sitter, other mothers that go there, the preschool teacher, my family, mutual friends, and even our neighbors will testify that I take care of the kids 70-80% of the time. With her current hours, I can easily prove that she will not be able to take care of the kids full-time and work her hours. At minimum, she works 15 hors shifts Mon, Wed, and Fri and she travels many of her days off for meetings out of town. Having to be there at 5AM and being 1+ hours away, she can't even take then to the sitters these days. Let alone take them to school and other activities. So, how is she doing it right now, if she has the kids? Count on her going to court and saying that she wants a divorce because she is scared, etc. She will push things away from her immoral and illegal behavior. In response, your attorney should have reams of evidence showing how you were there everyday, how you provide, how you continue to try to save the marriage. One example? My attorney subpoened the sign-in and sign-out records from the afternoon daycer my two youngest went to. Why? Well, because we got those records for the previous year and guess what it showed? That Mortarman picked up the kids something like 120 times...Mrs. Mortarman picked them up 60. It was outside evidence of what my journal was attesting to...that I was there for the kids, that I was providing them a stable environment, that I was the one taking them to church, etc. And it showed that she wasnt as involved. More on this as we go along. She "says." Does she have proof? No! We talked tonight and she said that she sees other dads who coach there kids sports teams and who take their kids to church. My kids are 2 and 4. The oldest plays soccer on achurch league but he has absolutely no interest in it. He played last year and hated it. W signed him up again this year only to have me take him most of the time. He has his team pictures tomorrow and a game. And who do you think is taking him and who do you think is working all day tomorrow? Church she has on me though. The kids have been to church maybe 4 times in the past 12 months and probably all of which she has taken them. But I don’t think 4 out of the 52 Sundays hardly determines or sets precedence. Okay...you need to be taking them to church anyway, even if you and your wife were doing well. You as the father are held responsible by God for their upbringing, religious and otherwise. Not your wife. You need to get on this. Added to that, you need to be the one doing it as it will show your involvement in all areas of their life. Your wife taking them to church 4 times AND leading an immoral life will not be looked on favorably by the judge. All he will see out of your wife is a hypocrite. Again, my wife did the same. The blatherings of a WW. ignore it. If you show you have been there, if you can document, and have friends, relatives, teachers, etc show that you are the go-to guy...then her baseless accusations will be met with disdain by that judge. Judges hate for their time to be wasted with baseless arguments. I will have many witnesses confirm that I am the go-to guy for the children… as mentioned above. I am also the one who has to leave work to pick up a sick child and I am usually the one who calls off work if they sick. Document, document, document. It cannot be your word against hers. Written documents, even your journal, are BIG in court. If your journal says you picked up the kids 90% of the time, for example, and she says "Well, I dont remember it that way..." guess who the judge will believe? he will believe the one who wrote down the day's events and conversations. Make it and open and shut case. But you have more work to do. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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Just a quick update... sorry I haven't been around this weekend.
Things have remained civil since the last episode last Tuesday evening. Lastnight, she left me a note saying she wanted to work our seperation out between us and proceed with a dissolution. She said she doesn't want to fight this in a divorce because she agrees that it will be harder on the kids and only the lawyers will win. In her note she proposed a schedule for us to share the kids and a list of assets she wanted. I am still considering what she wants but I agree with working this out between her and I and not the lawyers. I have done a lot of reading over the weekend regarding shared parenting in our state. It is the favored way of the courts. In her note, she says that she hopes her and I can remain friends after all of this and maybe more. I told her that I too would like to remain close friends but I really don't see it going any further than that due to what has been said and done. She will not even consider trying to work this out without a seperation. Sounds like fog to me but over the last few weeks, I have come to accept that our M is over. I do love her (in a different way than before) but I don't think that I can be with her even if that is what she wanted. She is no longer the person that I fell in love with. I cannot be with someone who is so selfish or someone that does not know what they want. Someone who shows very little effort to protect their love for their H, beyond everything else. I am sorry she has become this person and I am sorry that I have to let her go. I truly believe she is out of the fog now and she still isn't the person that I need her to be. This is HIGHLY doubtful. Every BS on here thinks their WS is different and that they truly mean what they say. My bet is she is still as foggy as ever. I deserve so much better that what she has become. No doubt. But that doesnt necessarily mean thru divorce. Look, if you want a divorce/dissolution, then no one can blame you. God even has permitted you to do so due to her adultery (although He does nto want you to do it). So, if you want to end it, then it is probably a good idea to do it as amicably as possible. But, most of us here are about marriage building and the fact that ALL marriages can be saved. Why? because God hates divorce and never intends for marriages to end, and for the kids to suffer. And suffer they will. Some more than others. But divorces NEVER turn out well for children. They will NEVER be who they could have been if their parents would have gotten their act together. If you look at my thread starting in June 2002, you will see the two year battle to save my kids' family, to save my marriage and save their mother. It was ******, on all of us. But the longterm success of this family and our kids is now much better because I took it upon myself to say "NO, this family, this marriage...will not end." So Luz, I am not sure what to tell you. You can go this route. And again, no one can blame you. But I do know that the assumptions you are making about your wife, your marriage, about the fog...almost certainly are wrong. I was there like you. I made the same miscalculations that you have. My wife is home now. So, should you decide that maybe the dissolution isnt the right thing, then we can be here for you. If you want the dissolution, then I will pray for you and your kids and that the Lord help heal all of you and you are able to move forward from this. In His arms.
Standing in His PresenceFBS (me) (48) FWW (41) Married April 1993... 4 kids (19(B), 17(G), 14(B), 4(B)) Blessed by God more than I deserve "If Jesus is your co-pilot...you need to change seats!"Link: The Roles of Husbands and Wives
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LUZ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> NO! NO! NO! YOU JUST CAN"T GIVE UP!!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> (1)Do you think it isn't possible for your love for your W to return? If it weren't possible do you think that all of us would be here giving advice and cheering others on? We want you to discover what we have...NOT ONLY CAN YOUR M RECOVER, BUT IT CAN AND WILL BE BETTER IF BOTH OF YOU GET ON BOARD WITH THE MB PRINCIPLES! None of us will tell you that it is easy, but it most certainly is possible and worth it...there are no guarantees, but what if it did work for your family? Can you afford to miss out on this kind of happiness? Is that a risk you are willing to take? I think that that is one big gamble... Also, do you think that God would want you to stay in a marriage that would only provide misery for all of you? As MM pointed out, adultery is a Biblical justification for ending your marriage, but it isn't what God truly wants...Why do you think that is? (2)Can you look at your two boys and be okay with saying that you didn't utilize every resource available to you to try and keep their family together? The breaking up of your family will always be the breaking up of your family as far as your children are concerned...to them, no matter how their family unit is destroyed, peaceful or not, it will ALWAYS represent PAIN and INSURMOUNTABLE DAMAGE in their lives...DESTROYED IS DESTROYED...In other words, it doesn't matter if the bullet comes from the enemy or "friendly fire"...dead is still dead. Don't you at least owe it to them to try? Luz, I don't mean to be harsh, but I just don't want you to have regrets...IMHO, this is the most important decision that you will ever make...choose wisely... Mrs. Wondering
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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Luz~
I'd say that you need to collect some intel here...I must agree with your instincts that things just don't smell right where her recent behavior is concerned...INSPECT WHAT YOU EXPECT!
Hopefully Mortar will be along shortly and offer you what I consider to be his expert opinions...
IMHO, investigating will give you something to focus on other than your anger...anger's not healthy for you or your boys...
Mrs. "Dubya"
FWW ~ 47 ~ MeFBH ~ 50 ~ MrWonderingDD ~ 17 Dday ~ 2005 ~ Recovered
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