R U in an session with any MC or IC or Steve? IMHO, your H is having some kind of an A, even if it is with himself. YUCK!?!?!?

So plan A and B is still a good direction for you. Any mate who moves out, says they only want t/b friends, goes on separate vacations, basically what you have experience from him is dealing with a Ws of sorts. Bad for any M.

If you are done with your plan A changes then plan B or D w/b the next step. I strongly recommend you counsel with Steve. Somethings amiss here. Prepare yourself for finding that A. I hate to say it but I smell a rat. A big stinkin' rat.

What I would do is read His Needs/Her Needs, then go ask him (as non-emotional as possible) if he is aware of his A. Not if he is having an A but if he is aware of it. See what sort of answer he gives. Of course, it w/b best to check with Steve 1st.

If he still denies it, then ask him why he is choosing to hurt your M by NOT making you feel safe. See stay away from the ILY words....they don't mean much to a WS. Yet safety is an international and galatic term. You have to be 'safe' even in outer space. LOL!!! So work from that angle.

If you do this in person, watch his eyes.

JMHO,
L.

Orchid,
I am seeling an IC. Some time back he did say I and H would have to talk about the R. I did not agree and we left it at that. But recently I have realized that this cannot go on. I do want to talk. My IC really feels that it is something that has to happen sooner or later. When I first started to realize that we would have to talk, I thought maybe I would give it till March...now I really don't see what I am waiting for. At first I thought I would just send the Plan B letter, but now I want to talk first......

Since he came back from CA we have been for all intense and purposes living seperate lives. We could be divorced. Just the paper is missing.

I do see what you are saying about an A with himself. During the summer all statements coming from him where about him him him and him. When he did talk about me, it was more along the lines of why do you want me when I cannot give you what you want....blah blah.....

I see all spouses here talk about the R. Even as the WS spits venom back, they still discuss the R, tell the WS that they want the M, a better M, that they are not giving up.....that is what I want to do. I want to show him that although we have not talked for 3 months, I still want the R. I am looking closely at myself and I want to do my part to restore the M......

Are you saying I should not say ILY in my letter? I guess I can erase that part. I have seen on other threads BS telling the WS that they love them and want the best for the M, so that is what I was trying to do......

I want him to know I have not given up on the M but I will not be just friends.

I don't feel right about going out on a letter alone.....I want to show him that I am strong enough to have this discussion....

Daisy

bump.....

Any other thoughts to my letter....It is couple of posts above...

Thank you!

Daisy

My WW was being treated for depression for about 5 years before her A. Her family also has a history of bi-polar. I tried numerous times to talk about us and our R. She politely listened but the conversations were completely one sided. She had nothing to say. We have since divorced and she still has nothing to say even through this whole process.

I really feel for you. Depression is really tough on loved ones as well. After the A my self esteem was completely wiped out and I very much felt to blame for the whole thing. Now I realize that she is a very lost and confused person, but at the time I thought it was all about me.

Take care and try to focus on making yourself a good, happy life. There is lots of love, happiness and compassion out there. Embrace it and live it and things will turn out just fine.

Miker

Miker...

Thank you for your thoughts....I do see some light at the end of the tunnel...and I do know I will have a happy life when I move on....trouble is I am still attached here and I just got to ride out that wave....but I do not see my future as hopeless as I did just a couple of months ago....


I have been trying to contact H since Saturday afternoon. No luck. Called over there to his place all day Sunday (every couple of hours), but got noone. So, I drove by there at around midnight. Nothing. Then, I went further and drove by there at 4:15 in the morning. No, his car was not there and when I called from a pay phone he was not there. Again, I realize that there can be a reasonable explanation for this. He could be staying at his friends after a night of drinking (he does not work today). He could be gone for the weekend. He could have sold the car and is not picking up the phone (very unlikely...) etc. But frankly my gut feeling is that there is something not right here.

I am calling him up tonight. I will meet with him....tell him my speach...as best as I can...and instead of just confrunting him with "Are you sleeping with someone"...at the end of my talk I plan to say that "of course everything I said is mute if you are involved with someone...." I'll watch his reaction, see then what he says....

If I am left with suspecions (and honestly I think I will be) I will hire that PI.
However, first I do want to ask. He may surprise me and just tell me yes. I don't count on it, but it could happen. And if he says no, then if I do find out something, I would have caught him in a lie, and then it is off to D. Right now I cannot D yet, we have to wait to be seperated for a year (its only 1/2 right now).......but if he is seeing someone, I will claim A....it does not matter that we are not officially together (or whatever!)...he never said "I want a D"...the word D has never come to his lips...we slept together in Oct, and spend time together that was not "just friends", I don't care what he says...

Ok, for now, I'll give him the benefit of the doubt (yes, I will stick my head in the sand for a moment) but it is only long enough to see what his reaction is and what is his explanation for what he was doing this weekend (I will just say I tried to get a hold of him and could not - see what he says)....

Any thoughts.....

I don't want to react....I just want to act.....

My plan is to call today and ask him to meet with me on Tues or Thur (Wed is his birthday and I do have some decency here not to get into it on that day)....I don't want to talk right away...I need to be calm.

Daisy

bump.........

Hi Daisy!

I am back. I was really not looking forward to coming back, as only the nasty, sad, and depressing reality was waiting for me. But I missed talking to you!

I haven't had a chance to go back to all of your posts, but it sounds like you are at a point where you do not wish to be in a limbo and want some kind of resolution.

You probably should get some feedback from others who have experience doing Plan B, but I think it is time for you to take some kind of action.

I really think your H is an unrealistic and irresiponsible cake eater. I do see his attachment to you, but it looks like nothing including his love for you has been strong enough for him to act in a responsible manner. I do not think he wants to get divorced. He has never mentioned it, he still calls you up, and he still wants to get together with you. But at the same time, he does not want to stay "married", since that comes with responsibility.

He is at a point where he needs to choose. Does he want YOU? Then he has to be responsible. He cannot continue doing whatever he feels like. Does he want freedom? Then he cannot assume you will be there forever for him.

One of the ladies I meet in a local divorce recovery group (we do bible study together) has been married to a guy who has been very detached and irresponsible. He has been responsible financially, but he has been very irresponsible emotionally and has never had any interest in working on their marriage. He has been sleeping in a guest room for the past 20 years or so!

Finally, the wife (my friend) took an action. She served him with divorce papers. It was very hard, because she loves him and is scared to death about her future without him. She never wanted a divorce. But at the same time, she knew that they cannot continue living like this. Her husband went to talk to a lawyer, but came back and basically told her that he does not want a divorce. So she told him that they need to see MC and need to work on their marriage. He agreed. Things have not been great, as he is not really putting much effort to improve their marriage, but now at least she knows that he does not want to divorce her.

I know each case is different, but you are strong and I know you want some type of feedback from your H. And I think you will. I know you are scared when you think of the worst. But if he continues to "use" you, in a way, nothing good is going to come out of it.

Be strong Daisy. Hugs.

Milk

Milk...

HEY, welcome back! Nice to see you again...

I hope your vacation was as best as it could be given all.....probably hard to come back....and face it all again.


Well, I am very scared. In Sept and Oct I was doing better, but I was convinced he needed to come to me and bring up the R. Now, I don't believe he will do it. But more over, I cannot see him and act as just friends...it is too painful. I am throwing in my last effort to save this R. I have not LBed for months...so I hope I can pull this off without LB. I have my draft of what to say...I hope I can say it all....I just need to do it. If what I say has no impact and it is the last conversation...and all he wants again is friendship and if he just slames the door in my face, so to speak, then I am off to plan B. NO More contact. Cannot do it.

It hurts. If I don't do Plan B, I'll be tempted to call and accept this "friendship" just to have some part of him and put more strain on myself and have more pain.....

I am very scared. If this is it, I will miss him so much....this is going to a tough couple of weeks ahead of me. I just got some photos from my family...they all look so happy. Dam, I don't know how I'll get through the holidays with them around....

Daisy

Hi white_daisy,

I agree with Orchid. It does appear to me that your H might possibly have some sort of an A going on. He seems to be keeping you hanging on in case it doesn't work out. Why won't he talk about a D if he just wants to be friends with you, and not be married? You guys could go on forever like this. It's not fair to you.

How long have you been doing plan A? Has it been a good plan A? Has he noticed the changes in you?

Have you read Love Must Be Tough, by Dr. Dobson?
This was the book that convinced me to go into plan B. I recommend that you read it, if you haven't already.

It might be time to do a real plan B. You can voice the plan B letter to him, but I would give him a letter as well.

Of course, this is only my opinion. I've been where you are - in LIMBO with someone who wasn't having an A. (He was - I just didn't want to believe it) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> It might do you some good to talk to one of the Harleys, though, since I am no expert. All I know is that I can feel your pain. It is pure torture to live as you are living.

Plan B is tough at first. Yes, you will miss your H. After a while, though, it will get better. You will come to realize that you can live without your H, if necessary. It will bring you peace. And you never know, in the end, it just might bring your H back to your M.

Take care,
svb

svb,
Thank you...

I didn't really realize I was in Plan A until recently <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I just worked on getting my life together, I have not argued with him, I have not LBed at all. I listen to him. I did cut the conversations short if I got the feeling he did not want to talk. But all along, I was pleasant and caring, and I smiled a lot, tried to be relax as much a possible. I did confront him when I felt he was disrespectful of my struggles at work...but I don't think I LBed. I just confronted him and moved on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

I gave him his space, but now I need to discuss this R. I could just send a letter but I really need to discuss this for my piece of mind. It is esential to me at this point. I have always avoided these hard conversations and I can not do that now. I do feel that if I did just give him a letter, he could easily interpret it as me not changing! One of my issues was that I did not discuss my feelings always. So, if I give him a letter in which I say I am ready to discuss my feelings and be open with you yet I am giving you this letter, I can really see how he would just think I am a coward and am taking the easy way out. NO, I will say what I need to say.. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />...walk away with my head held high and no regrets . I will not discuss any NC between us. I will instead give him a complete Plan B letter....I do want him to have something in writing, it will not be that easy for him to forget (unless he throws it out <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />)

I am shaking <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />....I plan to call him tonight. I have tried earlier but he is still not at his place. Who knows where he is at <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />.....Hope I get a hold of him before long...

Thank you all for you thoughts....I do not want a D....but this "R avoidance" can not go on <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />.....

I think he does not want to be the bad guy so is not discussing the D <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />.... I guess I will have to do it all when/if that time comes....

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

I got a hold of my H. Chatted a bit....before I asked him if we could meet...

At first he sounded ok, asked what it was that I wanted to talk about. I did not know how else to say it so I just said "us". Not the best response but to the point. After that he did not sound too please, just wanted to get off the phone fast....

But he did agree....

He is working till 8pm T-F. He is usually too tired etc...so I said I would meet with him on Saturday night. He works till 4pm that day. So he's got a couple of hours to kick back before dealing with me.

I was shaking and still am. This is going to be a tough week. I don't know how I am will make it to Saturday night.

When I asked him if T or Th worked for him (before I knew his schedule) he just replied "what ever works for you" in a very uninterested voice.

I have a feeling this is it. I will never see him again....have nice conversation, and hang out with our cats, watch movies, etc.....dam.....

I am in so much pain.....

Daisy

Daisy!!
Stop this!!
the man has done nothing but kick back for months now.
all you have asked him to do is sit and talk to you for what - an hour or so? and he can't even do that? What the heck? You are a human being. A Living, breathing, Loving human being. All you want to do is talk to your huband - YOUR HUSBAND, about your M. If he wants a D then so be it, he needs to get off his butt and do something about it. if he doesn't want a D, then so be it, he needs to get off his butt and do something. At the very least, he needs to treat you with respect.

You are settling for crumbs of attention from him, and frankly I don't see it changing any time soon.

Personally, I wouldn't settle for his "I will meet with you Saturday night" - but thats just me.

He can come up with a lot of excuses between now and then. I would suggest calling him and saying "meet me at Starbucks at 8:15. I have been living in a state of emotional tumoil for too long, and need to have the chance to work towards my own emotional recovery". but that is just me.

You are blaming yourself for everything. It is not all your fault. So at times you had a hard time talking about your feelings. That is NOT a reason to leave your wife. I would suspect that part of the reason you didn't express your feelings, is because you were afriad of how he would react.

Please don't beat yourself up anymore.

None of us are perfect. Neither was/is he.
That does not make it ok to leave your wife.

I am not trying to tell you to D your H. I am sorry if I come across too harsh. I just hear you beating yourself up, and I want to assure you that you are a good woman, and worthy to be loved.

I know he suffers from Depression. but he is spreading his disease to you. If your best friend were going through this, wouldn't you wnat better for her?

womanoffaith.....

Thank you...it means a lot! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> He has left me feeling like it was completely unreasonable for me to want to talk to him about us <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />....Is that how little I mean to him?

Well, I just got home and found a message on my machine. He does not "want to have a appointment" to talk about us. "If you have something to say to me just say it". I am to call him back. Well, it was not my intention to have an appointment <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />. I tried to be respectful of his time and give him some time to think before we meet.

"If you have something to say to me just say it". What crup is this! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" /> That is exactly what I am doing. I have something to say so I want to meet with him to say it. I will not discuss it over the phone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> and I was not about to show up at his place (after the way he treated me the last time I showed up there without calling) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />....

I want to discuss this in a neutral envirement....

I do wonder if he is worried. Worried that I know something I should not. When I talked to him earlier about how was his weekend....he told me he was around somewhere on Saturday and was downtown Sunday night and then had breakfast at a bakery shop this morning....interesting...seemed very vague to me since I know for a fact that he was not home last night at all. I was there at 12pm, at 4pm, and then again at 9:15. There was no sign of him. Unless he is some early backer shop riser <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />!

I wonder if he thinks I know something and that is what I want to discuss......anyway.....

I got to call him now.....I need to get ready for that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> this is hard....

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

So I called over there....he is gone!

Ahhhhhh! This is such a pain! I take time to get ready what to say and then I just have to leave a message....but I did leave a nice to the point message....no hint of AHHHHH!


Thank you all for being here.....I am so happy I got this place....

Daisy

Daisy,
I responded in my thread too, but I figure I'd post the same message in your thread to get other ppl's input on my babble into your sitch.
Don't worry too much about the flash cards, just the fact you wrote them down should make it easier to bring up the issues and articulate them. Be strong, don't appear panicky, most importantly know where you stand on these issues. Once you know, no matter what his excuses (I mean responses) are, you'll have a solid well thought out answer and position on them.
You'll be amazed once you take a stand on your issues, appear strong and confident, how much more confident you actually feel about what you're saying. That confidence also allows you to stay calm and collected if he says things that just hurts you or don't make any sense. And when he does, absolutely do not get into rebuttals, as I found out they believe what they're saying with 100% conviction. He won't know it or acknowledge it but he will regain some respect for you if you appear strong and confident.
I hope I'm making sense.

Stu,
Thank you for your words....I am really worried I will come of completely weak <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />.

But I think the fact that I am at least trying to get us to talk about it is a sign that I am not taking the cowards way out. I'll try really hard to be strong and confident.


I did not hear from him last night <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />. I have IC this morning so I will see what he recomends. Should I call again if I don't hear from him today? In his message he did say I should talk to him so it does not sound like he wants to avoid it, but who knows. He also said for me to call him and lets talk! Well, no I will not discuss this over the phone <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />. Yes, it would be much easier for me <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />. But, just as I will not have my M end on 3 lines in an email (as I am sure he hoped I would <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />) I will not have it end over the phone.......No way. A four year R will end in face to face contact!


WOF....thank you again for your thoughtful post <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />. I keep going back and rereading it. NO, you were not harsh. I was quite angry myself yesterday. He is really behaving so imaturaly. I think he hopes he can just "brake up with me" and be done. NO <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />! We are married, so it takes more than "lets be friends" to end this! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> SHEASH! I cannot believe him!

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Dear Daisy,

Daisy, you are such a strong, smart, attractive and responsible person. I have been really impressed how well you have handled your situation and stayed calm. Maybe you can teach me how to control my emotions <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Anyway, now it is time for you to have a talk with him, and the way he called you back and demanded that you should just tell him whatever you want to talk about over the phone, is just not acceptable! He should know that being married yet living separately and acting as if two are "just friends" is not NORMAL, and OF COURSE you want to discuss it!!! You haven't done anything wrong asking him to meet to talk about your relationship. You even asked about his schedule so that he won't be "tired" when you two have this conversation.

Don't get scared, because you have been so nice, maybe even too nice to him. He cannot use any excuse to blame you about how he has been over the past 6 1/2 months. If anything, he should be scared to death! He has been irresponsible, unreal, selfish, and inmature while you continue to be "there" for him. He has whole a lot more to loose than you.

Hugs,
Milk

Hey Milk!

Thank you....everyone has been so supportive over here...it is so helpful. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />


I did not realize this but it is so true. He has someone who despite everything is willing to stand by his side. I don't have that <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />. Moreover, he has someone willing to stand by him, deal with his depression, take him as he is....no carrier and with very little carrier path (plan) at 29! He will not have woman lining up <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> to be with a man that has no carrier, has an education but does nothing with it, instead opts for working as a dishwasher, and has very little in terms of carrier goals and plans, is figuring things out and basically is in a MLC (or something of that sort)....I am here willing to wait it out for him to figure it out! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> I know that this may make me look like a fool, but I did see him working towards a goal 4 years ago when we met and I do have hope for him..... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />


I have not heard from him yet. My friend says he cannot just ignore me but something tells me he may just try to do that. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

IC was really good this morning. He hoped for my sake that I get to talk to him soon seeing as I am ready to talk now and I don't want to wait this out .....

We did discuss the fact that I was doing it for me....not to just get him back...but for my own personal growth....I feel good about that....this is consistant with my Plan A, working on myself, going beyond the comfort zone and not be ruled by fear <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />. I told myself, I have everything to gain and nothing to loose <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />...he is not a part of my life right now!

This waiting for his call sucks. I wonder if he is trying to get some control of the situation back by ignoring me. Well, it will not work for him. I am no longer that push-over that I was couple months ago <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />. Nothing he can say can hurt me as much as the pain I felt when he left.....it may come close, but not top it off!

Daisy <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

H gets off from work at 8pm. I plan to call him around 9:00. He should be home by then. Moreover, it would give him plenty of time to call me.

I don't want to come of as pushy.

Is calling 1 hour after he gets home reasonable or should I wait longer or till tomorrow?????

Daisy

If it were me, I'd call him. I'd want to get it over with! Do you really want to wait another day?

But if you want to talk to him in person, what are you going to tell him tonight on the phone? Just curious.