Patriot & Froz,

You guys are VERY funny! Glad you clarified the saddlebags issue....that's NO laughing matter!

Considering this was started around my sitch I will chime in. I feel that the explanation I gave seems to have been lost in your example.


#1- we are both BS/WS

#2- there was an existing agreement for NC by both of us
(this included work-related events where the OP might
be. My H's A started up at a work-related event. My H
has regularly not attended work events she was
attending as he said he understood my feelings).

#3- H said he did not want to continue to hurt me and if
going meant I would be hurt, he would not do so

#4- keeping the NC agreement is HUGE to me as I am trying
trust my H again and him keeping his word is a big
part of that (whether it be NC or something else, I need
to be able to believe him again)

#5- this was not something as simple as an event I prefer he
not attend (this was a break in our agreed-upon
definition/agreement of NC). I feel your example is
not applicable as it does not reflect the situation
we were in. This was not merely an event, this was an
event OW was to attend.

#6- my H agreed not to go in MC (despite wanting to). We
have both had to make sacrifices since the As.

#7- I tried to work with my H to make sure he could go
once he said OW would not be attending. I was still
feeling apprehensive about the fact she may be there, so
I let him know that in order for me to feel safe I
needed proof she would really not be there. I
knew how important it was to him, so I tried to work
something out where he could go and I could feel
safe too (POJA of sorts). The easiest thing would have
been just to let sleeping dogs lie when he said he
would not go, but I would like a bit of normalcy back
in our lives. So, I came up with some suggestions for
proof, all of which he was not comfortable with.

#8- POJA is when both partners enthusiastically agree. H
is not interested in following MBers concepts at this
time, so we do not "POJA" per se.

#9- H is now angry at me because he feels I waited to long
to tell him what I needed (I could not tell him until
I finally figured it out myself. I had been under
the impression that he had re-iterated he would not
be going because he could see how much pain it was
causing me. So, when it came up again, I was
sincerely hurt and surprised).

#10- making up for my A sometimes means I do not get to do
what I want to, but my H and M are more important to me
and I accept it as the world I created when I had an
A. It really sucks, but it is what it is. If I did not
want to live like this, I should not have had an A.

#11-H and I are not (currently) working as a team to
repair our M. He is working more on personal R than
marital R. He does not care to have conversations about
our M for the most part, so these "disagreements" are
difficult to manage as we are not working together
and we have very few agreed-upon "rules" (like MBers
concepts) to rely on.


Carry On <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

JM,

""As to her happiness: It is not your duty in life to make her happy. In fact, you can't. She can only make herself happy.""

The point of my post was I was not to do any selfish thing that would make her UNHAPPY!! and hurt. The thread (hypothetical and/or rhetorical) was about selfishness.

So my 4 year old childish communication was just an example (hypothetical) of who is being selfish. Kind of a ongoing infinity type of dialogue.

I realize it is not my duty in life to make her happy.

It is my GREAT PLEASURE that I CAN and DO make her happy.<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

k

Well said!! My green-eyed monster is emerging.

Wow, there sure are a lot of misunderstandings going on here. I thought Patriot and I were the proposed 4 year-olds!

At least we are clear on the saddlebags issue! No misunderstandings going on there.

Patriot,

""I don't want a spouse that is extremely obese. Does that cross the line? How about if I had made the stipulation that she lose 15 pounds or no ring? Does that cross the line. Is it valid communication of my need? Or is it a selfish demand?""

Good point.

Is the obese spouse happy she has the saddlebags? If she lost the saddlebags would she be hurt and unhappy?

She surely realizes that her extra weight is unhealthy and unattractive (to you), and by saying lose 15 lbs or no ring would by motivation to do it.

If she experiences any hurt, would it not be from the way you communicated your need?

I am not quite sure this is an "easy" example. What if the obese spouse COULD NOT lose the weight, no matter what?

I do not think in this case it is a selfish demand. Her health alone would be reason enough for the request.

How about the H who likes large breasts and asks his W to get a boob job. Is that a selfish demand or a emotional need?

k

Ya know, I was just in the process of getting the "We Get Nekked a Lot" part, and then somebody had to go and ruin it with the "Saddlebags" thing!

Sheesh! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

tqt,

Where was the "Nekked" part??!! I totally missed that! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

As soon as I stop laughing, I'll try to find it...

Don't hold yer breath! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Yikes... I was hoping I didn't have to come back and say "ooops... wrong thread!" 'cuz that would've been embarrassing!

But I DO have to say that, sort of...

Same cast of characters* (phew! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />), but it was the OTHER thread. (YOU know... THAT thread...)


*a very nice and very cool couple, but who apparently get "nekked" and chase each other around with stuffed chickens(??)

I definitely feel the pain of this one. As a previously very fit person who got fat after having the kiddies, I'm pretty insecure on the saddlebags issue. While I'm finally starting to work on this more intensely on my plan A (which I'm doing for ME more than anything), I know I have a long road to get to my former condition. I suffered with postpartum depression after both children were born, and one of my favorite ways to medicate is with food (and lots of wine to wash it down!). I know my husband is repulsed by me, as is evident since we've had no SF contact in about 4 years. Part of me understands his disgust. The other part is not so sure. Our vows are "in sickness and in health," and postpartum (or any kind of) depression could be viewed as a health issue. Would it be equally ok if I leave him if he hurts his back and gets really fat because he can't exercise? I'm still struggling with resolving this issue in my head. I am happy that I'm working on my weight for my own sake, but I'd feel pretty weird if I felt like I HAD to do it, OR ELSE.

tqt,

Apparently my loaded chicken is no threat to you.




What are these fictional saddlebags you speak of????
How can something be ruined if it was fictional?


I'm beginning to detest that word intensely, and I am making no idle threat here when I say that the next person who mentions that word is gonna be on the receiving end of my (fully) loaded chicken!!!

Don't even think about testing me, tqt...you know what a feisty *&^%@ I can be! I'll come out with chickens blazing!

A feisty redhead with blazing chickens is far less pretty than saddlebags!

Would SOMEBODY pick another hypothetical situation? I'm starting to get self-conscious here!

You take back what you said right this minute, tqt! I've got dirt on you, too, ya know - something about a trowel and some Ben & Jerry's penance ringing a bell??? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />




You are too funny.

Few know this about me, but I am so terrified of birds that I won't even eat chicken if it has bones in it. So if there's gonna be some chicken-slapping going on, it'll have to be with boneless, skinless breasts. It's the only poultry allowed in my house.

Patriot:

You said, "...like how when people don't get what they want, one of the first things they do is try to find someone to blame. Or someway to deflect off of themselves an points of ridicule. Again, for short-bus occupants, this would be called a defense-mechanism."

No, this is called "communicating like 4 year olds".

Over the course of a marriage, you and your W are going to change quite a bit as to what you want and need out of the M. The only way to understand what each of you want out of the M is to continually discuss it. So, when one spouse start "deflecting criticism" or starts calling the other names (i.e., "selfish"), then you and she aren't communicating. One or both are having a temper tantrum.

Whenever you want to do X and your W wants to do Y, then you and she have a great opportunity to talk about "what we need in life". The discussions help you separate what you "need" from what you "want".

When are your "demands" too much? If you are asking for something you need, then it is never too much. If it is asking for something you want, then it is always too much. Only you know what you need.

So, it gets back to *YOU* identifying what you need and communicating that back to your W.

A lot of the problem is that, as consumers, the advertisers are constantly trying to confuse our "needs" vs. our "wants". So, you have to spend time thinking and discussing what you want and need with the person who knows you better than anyone in this world: your W.

It is hard to do. It takes practice and patience. But, once you get the hang of it, it opens a door to a whole different type of relationship.

krusht: "Happy" is a pretty confusing word--perhaps you and I are using it in different context. If she is dependent upon you for her happiness, what happens if you aren't available? Is she helpless? Is she so emotionally stunted she doesn't know how to find contentment by herself?

POJA is the "policy of joint agreement"...not the "policy of joint happiness". There is no guarantee that everyone will be happy when you use POJA.

Frozen, Patriot, et al,

""Would SOMEBODY pick another hypothetical situation? I'm starting to get self-conscious here!""

I was hoping to find a stimulating discussion in progress this morning on hypothetical sitch below.

How about the H who likes large breasts and asks his W to get a boob job. Is that a selfish demand or a emotional need?

And Mr. Mac, lighten up, enjoy the day, smile, and BE HAPPY!! (whatever that means to you <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />)

k

Well, I don't know that this will be a stimulating conversation, but I would consider that to be a selfish demand. If the guy wanted big boobs, he should have married big boobs.

In that hypothetical situation, if I were that hypothetical wife and my hypothetical husband made that particular hypothetical statement to me, I would say this to him...

"Oh, honey, thank God you've opened the door on this topic of conversation, because I have been wanting for the longest time to discuss what we could do, surgically, about your penis size!"

But that's just me...it's no secret around here that I am a real smart alec.

IMO there's nothing wrong with askign for what you want. If that's what the H thinks will make him happy, why not ask?

There's also nothing wrong with saying no. In this case, since a boob job is a pretty serious surgical procedure, I think there are few women who would say yes. But who knows, maybe the couple might both want that! Plenty of women do want boob jobs.

IMO it comes back to POJA. Look at the underlying needs. Maybe a fancy push-up bra will fill the same need!!
Its not that difficult.

Fancy pushup bras are great, except you can NEVER take them off!!! As a lifetime A-B cup, I'm always searching for that perfect (non surgical) solution!

Froz, I'm... well, I'm somewhere between speechless, and Froz-en...
I searched the entire MB database, and that's the FIRST time ANYone has EVER said that.
I DO think it's worth exploring in more depth, though.

If push comes to shove, would that depend on the State, or no?

Ba du dum (the drum thing)



Interested in exploring some boneless, skinless chicken breast slapping, are we? You didn't REALLY search the database on that, did you?

I think all you guys really just want to talk about breasts. I can't believe we are actually discussing POJA with regards to breast size.

Well, you brought up your response ie askign him about his penis size. Lets talk about POJA-ing that.

I think the point is that its possible to POJA anything, as long as you keep an open mind, avoid DJs, avoid emotional over-reactions and make sure you speak up for yourself. Asking for something does not equal a demand.
We're all born free and we can all say NO!