If he decides that he wants to be with you...marry you, then working with the OW may have to be dealt with. Dr. Harley has stated that there should be a commitment to NC for life. That means changing jobs and moving if necessary. He chose to cross the line with her. The attraction was there, the threat of rekindling the A would be there. That would be one of the consequences of his choice to have an A at with a co-worker.

But, I am jumping ahead a bit. Guess I am being optomistic after your description of the conversation you had with Mr. J...aka P**L.

Hi Trix, gee I've missed you!

I've stated my boundaries and written them in e-mail but it the e-mail wasn't a formal, stylized if you want to be married to me here is what you'll have to do letter. There were no specific steps demanded (move, get a new job, new clothes, new bed) just the broad basic ones presented here. Do you think that still needs clarifying with a very specific letter? If so, you might be right.

What I like best about the shrink thing is that Mr. J., knowing how much of a victim HE was in that situation, knows also how victimized I was. I take responsibility for my choices to continue bad therapy but Mr. J. really doesn't hold me completely or even mostly responsible for the havoc that created in our lives. He's being generous on that account.

I'm pretty sure Mr. J. isn't looking for drama and intrigue. Beyond the initial butterflies and sneaking thrills, I can bet that Mr. J. does NOT want drama or impositions made on him. He's been closing himself off as he chooses from friends and family still, staying home, doing his own thing, playing on the computer, whatever.

Yeah, I think he is making comparisons between me and OW. Probably more than he knows consciously. Consciously, he has shared that when he's away from both of us; the person he misses is me - he winds up not thinking of her much or at all. Could be more lies... but he's established a pattern of this now, so I'm going to go with it.

The A is very entrenched. But still pretty much under wraps at least with the important people in Mr. Js life. OW moved into an apartment within walking distance of our - sorry - his place. I thought that was strange that the sex isn't of greater frequency actually -- if the "love of my life" moved down the street from me I'd be on top of him every day... Hmmmn.

OW is divorcing her H (already got her religious divorce) and wants to marry Mr. J. She has told her family this already. Mr. J.'s family still knows nothing of A or OW. Maybe this is causing some discomfort. Who knows? I think he could decide to marry her. It wouldn't surprise me. He could decide he doesn't want to in which case I'm sure she'll be looking for someone else. (IMHO, OW leaving/cheating on Mr. J. is probably the fastest, best chance for a complete turnaround from Mr. J. to me.)

Some possibly salient points about the A - The A did not have a very long build-up although the build up was during the last months before Mr. J. left me. After he left Mr. J. said he did not tell OW that he was single, free or available. Ow made the move on Mr. J. thinking he was still betrothed - this matters only that he knows (he acknowledges) she's capable of doing it again. He is acknowledging his own role in the breakup of her marriage and what this is doing to OWs husband.

Mr. J. is not proud of himself, his actions or his decisions. He's lied to OW, to his family, his friends - not just me. He says those actions are in the past and can't be changed and that is true, but the final outcome could still be changed... He is still trying to re-write history but at the same time, reality seems to be taking over whether he likes it or not. I don’t know if he really is feeling regret, guilt, anything... I don't know if that will mean change for the future in terms of pulling back from OW or not.

I think you're right. I have more difficult times ahead.

I agree. Changing jobs and moving are desirable. For my guy, I'm fairly sure, the decision to choose me, should he ever make that decision, would be enough to keep him from returning to OW. Friends and family would help ensure it. I've wondered if that is one of the reasons Mr. PJ <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> hasn't disclosed to his family and friends... She's divorcing. There's nothing holding him back now... ??? But no. Only one friend knows and he is NOT supportive of that relationship. He supports PJ, but not the A.

Time. So little time. So much time.
Jinx

Important and hard to see...

Last Wednesday my friend Froz pointed out to me a serious communication problem IRL. What she had to say was surprising and I didn't know how true it was, but she was frustrated by my lack of clear communication and so I thought I'd better listen carefully and think it through.

Froz said that I didn't actually say what it is that I want from others directly or specifically. She said that I either don't express my needs or that I am very vague. If you'll forgive me for speaking your feelings about this so publicly Froz, I'm going to because they wound up being very important. Froz said that she felt like I was setting her up to fail [at being a good friend to me].

Now if anything, I think I suffer from over-explaning wants and needs. I did think I've been very clear with friends, relatives, Mr. J., the local P.D.... just kidding. Still, Froz would not have said this without reason. I gave it thought.

Guess what?

Friday, during the first of our marathon talks, Mr. J. said something very similar to me. I thought at first that he was saying he was feeling hurt at the lack of communication during the last month of my plan B-or-whatever-name-won't-cause-fits-plan. He was saying that and he was saying something more. Mr. J. was saying what Froz had said just a couple days before. He felt cut off from me because he thought {{I}} was vague and non-committal.

Yesterday I wrote Mr. J. a (medium) letter owning that problem. I wanted to let him know he had been right about a serious flaw of mine and that even if we weren't going to ever talk again, I wanted him to know that I finally "got it" and I thanked him. I didn't say anything about us or moving forward, reconciling or our relationshop other than saying that this would have to be the last of our personal contact if there was no future for us together.

I got a letter back... some key points:

I am sorting things out in my head and not ready
to commit too many words to paper yet. I am finding myself confused about
things at this juncture and trying to process it all.

He thanked me for my honesty and said that he felt it was more than he deserved.

...find myself searching right now for what it is I want out of life. No
answers and maybe it is foolish to think I will find the "answer(s)". And
there in lies the confusion I guess. Is a life living on my own enough?

I am just rambling in my mind aimlessly. I will continue my
thinking and try to share some thoughts very very soon. Don't be
disappointed in me.

And again, Mr. J. asked me to move my stored belonging BACK into our house.

Is this man lying to me? I know we can't answer that... Does this sound like someone who wants to keep on with his A? Does this sound like someone who is re-considering his choices?
Jinx

He sounds to me like he is still involved with his affair but wants to keep all his options open, such as reconciling with you. Sounds like waffling to me.
Lots of fog.

Miz Jinx,

Nothing to forgive. The quantity of feelings I have are so publicly spread all over this forum we could all make sandwiches from them (anyone have some bread?). So feel free to share anything you like.

Thanks once again for laying it out there. If you hadn't been so strong and passionate about this problem of mine, I still wouldn't have been able to see it accurately. I'd still be thinking I was being clear with Mr. J. (and probably others) and getting rejected instead of being vague and passively, unintentionally REJECTING Mr. J.

Froz, you've shown me a way to improve an aspect of myself that affects my whole life and all the people I meet. That is a very big deal. Sincerely, thank you.


So People, Now what do we do with this mess? Wait and see? Skip town? And is any of this sounding like mid-life crisis?

Running back to the toilet!
Jinx

My opinion...

No way to guess if it's mid-life crisis. We could all sit here all day speculating as to where Mr. J is at and what he's feeling, and it would all be speculation. It doesn't even sound as though Mr. J is very sure what he's feeling. So it might be a good idea to save our precious brain cells for something we can actually accomplish. So, that option's out.

As for the wait and see option, it doesn't look as though you have much choice in that.

Skip town? Well, that could be an option. I happen to be very "in" with the owner of a quaint little salon where you could go to get your hair done - you know...something to take the focus of Mr. J and make YOU feel good about YOU. But, that is miles and miles away - might be a little more "out of town" than you were thinking.

But I am definitely leaning towards the option of taking the focus off Mr. J and placing it on you. I say stick with your modified plan B (because it seems to be having an impact), and I'm liking the thought of you doing something to make you feel good. Keep all your yummy cake for yourself until he's truly willing to accept your invitation to the wonderful, happening party that is you and what you're offering. No take-out cake for him!

I'm crushed. I'm done. I'm sick to my stomach. I'm fighting hard to stay patient and not do anything...

The one friend who knows about the A and wasn't supportive... Has decided to be supportive of the A after all. He's going full ahead and accepting married OW as Mr. J's new girlfriend and is including her in outings, double-dates and so on.

I'm nauseous. I hate this sham existence. I hate these people who claim they are so honorable and in the end are just pigs.

How come I'm not a pig? Huh?
Jinx

Mr. J is the one with the sham existence...not you.




Not do anything? Who told you to not do anything? You missed your hair appointment, btw. I guess that means we'll have to reschedule.

Also, I can't believe you would slam pigs after having watched 'Babe' today.

I am certainly no expert on either Plan A or B, but my interpretation was that Plan A was kind of about him and Plan B was more about you.

So...I'm going to focus on YOU (and hope you follow suit).

What did Jinxie do today?

Also, just for kicks last night...I checked the sodium content of the shaved turkey vs. the cracker. You were SO right. I had no idea lunchmeat had THAT much sodium! You are purdy smart.

Thanks Froz,

Well, I delivered my plan-shhh letter. Boundaries clearly drawn once again and demanded that Mr. J, Phil, stay away from me, stop contacting me, so and etc. until there is NO MORE OW.

As we all agreed, yes, we did all agree, sooner or later, he would have to choose. I guess I listened and then decided to choose for myself sooner rather than later.

So, I said good bye to my love. If it was the last he will ever hear from me, it was a sweet, resolute good bye. This isn't how I wanted things to be. Someone? Please say, There there. It'll be OK.

Jinx, aka Sally

I think you did the right thing. It's been getting too painful and you need to go back to protecting yourself. You are capable of moving on if you need to and put your mind to it. I think you are a very strong woman. You have to go back to not needing him.

I do hope he ultimately choses to be with you. After all, you have a long history together and it did seem, like underneath all the crap, you were good together. But a happy future for you doesn't hinge on that outcome. There could be something better out there for you.

I will pray for God's will to be done in this situation you find yourself in. Either this or something better for the greater good.

My dear

My heart is aching for you - but I know and YOU know you did the right thing. You may have been able to talk to him a little bit more as he sorts his feelings out - but it would have been at his expense and more than likely you would have ended up at this point.

I really do think that Mr. J aka Phil - is really thinking about things. Your Plan B of sorts over the past 4 weeks made him realize he could REALLY loose you - and that's something he hasn't had to face yet. Since you have done kick [censored] Plan A, he is realizing what a great person you have been.

he has been getting something from you all this time, and it's time to cut it off and I think you know that. The thing is - if he is having so much trouble letting you go - there may be something still there, and if he faces the fact that he TRULY is loosing you - he may ACTUALLY make a decision.

meanwhile - this is the best for you too - I know it hurts not talking to him, knowing he is carrying on - but remember to keep yourself super busy - find things to do. go get that haircut <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> Froz <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

You are STILL in my prayers my dear and will be all night, all day, all week....

Hang in there - you are one of the most AMAZING, STRONG women I have ever met I wouldn't have gotten through my ordeal without you - you taught me so much about myself, and how to change, how to hope...Remember that - remember the GOOD you are!

Trix, God bless you and thank you.

I don't know what's right anymore. We were good together. Even when we are together now we are still good together. It is hard to imagine finding someone else who feels and fits so good and so well.

It's ironic that it was my very first time meeting Phil and being so impressed with him as a man was what inspired me to finally grow from a girl into a woman.

And now with his self-search for who knows what, I am that woman I wanted to be to preserve his respect for me and our friendship together and he's -- other.

I guess I got something important out of our years together. And soon I'll start a new year of my life and maybe things will begin to get better.

Froz, you reminded me too, of something I always try to do but haven't done much of lately. Give thanks in all circumstances. I will thank God. I will even thank God for the OW. Thank you for reminding me to do that from the bottom of my heart.

Sally

Dorry, you've been my link to sanity these past four weeks. More than a few times I considered running to your place for sanctuary but poor Perp with his awful stroke couldn't survive that.

He's asleep on me this minute. All 94 lbs of double-coated hot dog. The dog bodies actually are more than 200% of one Sally. I also thank God for a working air conditioner. No joke.

So you're just going to have to come here. I think you all should come here. Froz can make us beeeYooteeful. And we can all sit around reading my latest pages and groaning over how awful they are.

The Rilke did lead me to my link though. One I'd already discarded a couple of years ago. I brushed it off a bit and decided it would work. If I manage a best-seller some day, then truly, you all MUST come to the cot for a party.

But keep talking to me. It's going to be a bumpy birthday all alone. Thank you for the prayers. They are helping already.
Sally

Phil responnded to my (edited to add: unmistakably formal, FINAL) plan B letter.

He's agreed to respect my request that we have no further contact until he gives up OW AND he returns to a life with me only.

He acknowledged that this is the boundary I had established for myself all along. He said he lied about OW to try and keep me in his life and that he knows he has to stop lying.

He asked me to believe that he still loves me. He said I am his best friend. He said he misses me and wants to share things with me every day.

He still loves me.

Things are going to change. I know they are. I feel it. I'm crying but I know now -- he'll be back.

Trix, if you're there. Phil echoed what you said just yesterday about us being good for each other with each other under it all.

I'll write more when I calm down. I promised a friend I would get away from the computer for a while.

Sally

!!!! THANK YOU !!!!!

Thank you to everyone who took the time to guide me, teach me, comfort me and help me re-make, re-clarify and absolutely re-fortify my decision to make plan B work for me. BrambleRose, these thanks goes out to you too! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> I read and reflected on everything you all have contributed to this thread. All -- consider yourselves validated!

Phil did understand that absolutely, I meant to have no contact with him and he didn't want that. He would have kept lying to keep me in his life. He admitted as much.

Phil also admitted the things he lied to me about during the last two years of our life together. It's easy to see from the sentences and how he structured that portion of his letter that he was having some insight even as he wrote. His list was not very long and the lies he told were the kind of lies a little boy or girl might tell.

For example, he said he'd be home at noon when he knew hew wouldn't be back until 2.00pm. Said he was going one place when he was going another. Said he was late because of work when really he was sneaking (his word) away to do something else, usually running or playing 9 holes or just driving around. He spent all of this time alone (this I know for fact). There was no OW involved, no OW as a causation. Phil was never interacting even with other men friends. Phil wanted solitude and freedom to do the things he liked by himself and he was afraid I would be angry if he told me he just wanted to have time to be alone.

(I wish I'd known about all these little lies. I could have saved him so much heartache, and maybe some of my own heartache too. I really didn't know. I think if I actually had been as upset as he thought I would be, I probably would have been suspicious and found out. It never ocurred to me not to take him at his word... )

These are all things Phil said that I am sharing with you - not guesses. Phil said he wound up telling me some small lie almost every day. And because he thought I would be upset with him, he felt like he had to tiptoe around and all of his little lies (to other people too! his family and friends, not just me) "built up layer upon layer, doing tiny bits of damage until we had huge rifts."

His difficult in being forthright and honest is haunting him and he knows he has to accept that he has a problem and fix it. He sees that now, what he considers the end, all of the time he spent avoiding telling the truth "has hurt [him, me, us] much more than [telling] ALL the truth would have..."

The hardest part (so far in my processing of all this) for me was when Phil started to tell me I have "a wonderful heart and a great capacity to love." He said he always felt bless to know me. He thinks we complemented each other in so many ways and "there were so, so many good things with us" and "so many wonderful things we shared." He said the most important thing for him was that, "you taught me to create my own home with someone."

That part just about broke me. That and when he told me about how much he misses sharing plain old every day life sorts of stuff with me because I'm his best friend. He has the OW but he misses talking to me about our different interests, our new discoveries, he misses sharing food with me. Enjoying sports together...

I sure have got a lot to learn still! I don't know why those things seemed to hurt more, but maybe that can be what you can help me to keep discovering about myself?

Halfway through Day 1.
Sally

Love you, hon.

It gets better. In the meantime, I have an empty shoulder if you need one to lean on.

- Kimmy

Kimmy I love you. I'm not too proud to lean on that shoulder a little.

Right now I mostly want to have a good wet cry and be held and comforted. I think the last time I was even touched by another person was when Phil went to hug me and called me tiny dancer over a month ago...

So yeah, I could use a little support. And I wouldn't mind giving a little either. It would be a nice thing for me to spend some effort to make someone else's day a little brighter.

Sally
sally.athelny@gmail.com

Do you all want to hear something funny?

The friend that wasn't supportive of the A that I thought was supportive of the A in actuality.........

ISN'T supportive.

He's worried for Phil, doesn't like him spending all of his time alone and wants to observe the OW for himself.

I over-reacted. There's a surprise! Well, I'm not sorry that my over-reaction prompted this latest. It had to be done.

I can be such a dope sometimes!

Sally