LT,

You are doing so well in keeping your boundries in tact.

I could be wrong but I think it will only be a matter of time as long as you stay on track.

Once Skunkypoo is gone from the bank it should be easier for WH to make the n/c letter.

I am praying for you that this is the beginning of the end.

Keep up the good work .....



Hurting

LT,

You are amazing - so strong! It's a pleasure to read your reverse babble conversations with your WH. Orchid must be so proud of her protégé!

Alph.

NEWSFLASH>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>

ARK HATES NO CONTACT LETTERS....

Just released today from close sources ark was noted to say that she hates no contact letters....

shocked the reporter asked why...

ark was quick to reply that she adores loves and believes 10000000000% in no contact period with OP...but is very very wary of a BS toting the NO CONTACT issue to be contained in a letter...

in ARKs opinion it somewhat the undermines the true importance and value of what the BS is really saying...and it gives a lot of wiggle room of WS to use a no contact letter as ...

a form of contact
and
as a weapon against the BS that can even unite the WS and OP even more...

ARK says she has been privvy to many many posts from OP receiving the so called famous NO CONTACT LETTER...

and read of their amusement and denial that it has any value and meaning from the WS and is just a ploy from the BS to control the already poor wife beaten whipped WS...and is more proof to the OP how much better they would all be if the the mean controling BS would just go away...

ALSO, states ark, is that she can not deny that at times the NO CONTACT LETTER backfires on to the BS directly from the WS...

you made me write it
you made me do it
you are trying to tell me who I can and can't have as friends...

wah wah wah goes the cries from the WS.....

ARK went on to say that no contact is actually a much bigger issue than to be undermined in a simple letter and it'S vast importance in fact in her opinion can not be contained in a letter...

WS must understand the value of no contact...and in her opinion should be accountable to it in far deeper and greater meaning than a letter....

"i wrote a no contact letter what else do you want me to do...." often grunts the WS...

well the answer is that the BS wants the WS to UNDERSTAND the reason and need for no contact...and not be left off the hook once the I's are dotted and T's are crossed...

the boundary should and must be NO CONTACT..
the boundary should NOT and must NEVER be the NO CONTACT LETTER itself....

too many BS hang their hearts and beliefs on the letter when it really often becomes a joke or a weapon....

BS need to keep focused on the bigger goal..a WS who understand the reasons for no contact...and protection of their spouse....even ironically from they, themselves...

no contact letter with no feelings of value in them...are as useless as the paper they are penned in....

and the powerstruggle to write one can go on and on and become a very nice comfortable zone to deflect the BS attention from the real issues of the WS....

Much better for a BS to explore with a WS what his/her plan is for returning security to a marriage...and exactly how he/she sees and values no contact..
the WS that balks at it as if a control issue...is NOT ready to return home....in her never ever humble opinion.

ARK finished the interview clearly stating her loyalties to MB principles.....and continues to hold out great hope for all that come here.....



ASSOCIATED PRESS RELEASE...

LT,

I agree with Ark.

quote:----------------------------------------------------
no contact letter with no feelings of value in them...are as useless as the paper they are penned in....

and the powerstruggle to write one can go on and on and become a very nice comfortable zone to deflect the BS attention from the real issues of the WS....
----------------------------------------------------------

If ever WS comes around... I will let him tell me how he plans to 'protect' me...and how will he gain my 'trust' back... telling him the obvious should not have to be necessary... I am not dwelling on this too much.... since I am not sure I will ever be dealing with it....at least, for now, there is no sign of it happening anytime soon.

Definitely, understanding the necessity of NC is much more important than simply writing the NC letter to please BS.

Your WS has come a long way, LT.

Good luck.

ark,

I believe the NC letter is meant to be a test in and of itself.

If the WS behaves as you decribe when asked to write a NC letter, then the BS cannot miss the flashing red lights and screaming sirens of danger. I agree that the NC letter is worthless under those conditions except to clearly show the BS that the affair is not over.

But if the (F)WS writes and sends the letter willingly, it is a very good sign that things are going in the right direction.

It's just a test. Really. As you said, it won't fix things all by itself.
Mulan

mulan...

many write it..don't mean it...

use it shut the ole BS up....

I am not so worried about WS intentions...as much as I am concerned with BS focus on a no contact L E T T E R...placing the boundary on the writing of the letter stead on back on themselves....

I hate posts focused on trying to get a WS to write one...

i just don't trust no contact letters

ark

I agree. At this point, there is no reason to trust anything that a WS does..

Extraordinary precautions and steps aimed at protecting the M are necessary in EARLY RECOVERY or else the FALSE RECOVERY...

It's a piece of the package..a part of the process...

I agree that it SHOULD NOT BE THE FOCUS...

But again, I say that the LETTER IS NECESSARY...

Additional value of the letter for us was...IT WAS AN IMPORTANT FIRST STEP IN RECOVERY...

It was the initial activity WE did together as a MARITAL TEAM attempting RECOVERY...

Even if the WS initially does not mean true commitment by writing the letter, I think it does portend the end of the A..

The OP then knows that the WS would at least consider reconciliation with the BS..

The OP begins to question the stability of the A relationship...

I am biased..

In my situation, the NC LETTER was a CRUCIAL ELEMENT..again strongly recommended by Steve Harley...to be done as the Harleys recommend..with all of the crucial elements included..and done together...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Editorial Comment:

I know. I know. I am/was compulsive about doing things as recommended by the Harleys..That's just me..You ought to see how closely I follow directions in a cookbook...

That being said, this is what Dr. Harley has to say about the letter:


And also, IMO, when he is READY to end the affair, he will gladly write the letter with YOU...


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Wow!
Thank you my friends, for all the support at this crucial stage!

It is a big step and a big gesture just to get Skunkypoo out of the work picture. A minimum 6 week notice is required by law unless the employer and the employee come to another agreement. I think at that time when she leaves would be good timing for a NC letter.

It would be nice if I get verification and a defined time frame for Skunkypoo's departure from the bank today, then WH would have the nice reward of getting to spend Christmas with his family. Otherwise, I think it is not a good idea. I don't want the kids to get their hopes up and then have Prince Charming not follow through.

As far as WH moving back in --- I'm not going to rush that one either. He is living just next door afterall and I think that I should wait until the preliminary steps outlined by Harley are made and we have POJA a plan for recovery.

What are your thoughts?

I agree with your need to get verification of her departure from the bank.

Can your WH take an extended vacation at this point..as long as possible?

NO XMAS WITH THE FAMILY UNTIL HE MAKES THE DEFINITE COMMITMENT TO END THE A..NOT WITH JUST THE NC LETTER!!

I would wish for you that you do not make the same mistakes that I did in reconciling too soon.

Update:

I talked to WH's boss Friday evening and a transfer of Skunkypoo is being organized!!!!

Haleluja! I'm happy, but still cautious. We had a lovely Christmas united as a family together.
Will write more later. Prince Charming and I are going mountaineering in the back country today.

Hi LT,

Looks like Prince Charming is ready to take ACTION!<

quote:-----------------------------------------------------
As far as WH moving back in --- I'm not going to rush that one either. He is living just next door afterall and I think that I should wait until the preliminary steps outlined by Harley are made and we have POJA a plan for recovery.
-----------------------------------------------------------

Sounds like a good plan... and it maybe worth considering consulting SHarley and discuss new developments and develop step-by-step strategy with him.....

Good going LT.... I will be thinking of you.....

Don't forget the letter..

I agree with the suggestion of counseling with Steve Harley...

Thank you, my friends! I will be consulting with Steve Harley again here soon. Today is a bank day again and according to WH's boss it is also the day that organisation of a transfer for Skunkypoo will begin. I hope to know today or at least by the end of this week exactly when Skunkypoo is out of there.

Meanwhile I am back in a seperated Plan A with the Frog Prince living next door at MIL's. He is visibly enjoying the cozy contact with me and our children. Meals together have always been important for us --- and not just during the holidays.

All through my Plan A we still had SF. The Frog Prince tried to initiate that yesterday, but I said I want to hold off until NC is established, we have agreed on a plan for recovery, and he has moved back in. I told him I need to feel safe before I am ready to trust him with my heart again.

With SF being a major EN for him, I think that my boundary will morivate him to take ACTION to make me feel safe.

For me to feel safe, some things are going to have to happen.
1. WH needs to answer all my questions openly and honestly about the A. He has refused to do this thus far and there are a lot of things I want and need to know to find closure and to know what I need to know in order to protect myself.
2. I need to know that WH fully understands the depth and the scope of the damage and pain he has caused me.
3. I need to know that he is willing to do whatever it takes to protect me and make me feel safe. This is where the NC letter comes in. This is where transparency comes in ... access to his cell phone, etc. WH uses email only at work and there is no way that I can have access to that. Perhaps I can get WH to agree to have his boss monitor that or have their computer technician put in an email block between he and Skunkypoo.
4. We need to POJA a plan for recovery. I know that WH is going to refuse MC and I know that MC is futile if one partner is doing it against their will. So, if he is not willing to do MC, he needs to come up with another suggestion. What is he going to do about his conflict avoiding issue. How are we going to break our negative patterns? Is he willing to do the do-it-yourself marriage builders course? He did promise me to read HNHN and I know that he at least started it. I would like to discuss the book and I think that I could get him to agree to do the questionaire.

I'm glad that you decided to consult with Steve..

I noticed that you said you needed this..



This probably won't happen during the EARLY STAGES of Recovery..Over time, YES..Right away, NO....



Sorry. I don't think the FULLY UNDERSTANDS THE DEPTH AND SCOPE won't happen early on either..

He has to go through WITHDRAWAL for her..so he remains IN THE FOG...his brain continues to MALFUNCTION....

The main thing is for him to FEEL BAD about WHAT HE DID but UNDERSTANDING comes LATER..MUCH LATER...Two years into Recovery my FWH has just now figured most of this stuff out..

#3 YES..YES..YES.. Do you have a copy of SAA? I was reading it yesterday. Follow the 4 RULES OF PROTECTION spelled out in there!!

Stick with #3 for now.

You also, IMO, have overly high expectations in #4. Sorry. It's important not to LB by being DEMANDING, LT...

IMO, you two will be doing great by following the RULES OF PROTECTION and to take this VERY SLOWLY...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Thanks for the warning, Mimi.

Patience is not my virtue. I so want this over ...

I'll try to keep the big picture in mind. They say recovery can take as long as the affair lasted. I think the A started in 2001. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" />

I've got SAA in my hands. In it are 4 rules described to guide marital recovery: protection, care, time, and honesty. I'll study up.

Meanwhile WH called last night to tell me that some of our mutual friends from Italy are in town and he invited them to our house for dinner tonight ... Is that alright and will I cook and can he help? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> Of course, I said yes. He knows I love to cook for friends and all of our friends seem to love it when I cook for them. Domestic support is one of his major ENs and one that Skunkypoo can't fulfill and one that he has been missing terribly during Plan B. The house is clean and decorated for the holidays and will be filled with laughter and food and wine and a crackling fire in the fireplace!

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

All the best,
L.

LT:

Since you have SAA, check out p. 84...

..at the beginning of recovery, remorse is rarely expressed..

... an apology is not always necessary for a full marital recovery to take place after an affair..

Instead of focusing their attention on the mistakes of the past, I encourage couples to focus on the present and the future..

We found practicing the last statement to be the MOST USEFUL!!!

Yes, FULL RECOVERY for us has taken a FULL two years which was about the length of the A...

WOW....

Dinner went well last night. After a long passionate kiss WH tried to initiate SF after everyone left and the children were in bed. I declined saying I don't feel safe yet and want to wait until NC is established and he is moved back in.

Today a phone conversation:

Me: Dinner was fun last night. Thanks for all your help.

WH: It was fun. Thank YOU.

Me: How is the job transfer coming along?

WH: OW is breaking down and she can't be transferred without her consent. OWH is giving me a hard time.

Me: What is OWH giving you a hard time about?

WH: He says that I am stabbing OW in the back by requesting her to transfer to another bank. He thinks that you are just seeking revenge.

Me: That is a strange thing for OWH to say since he is the one that suggested that I have sex with him as revenge. I'm not interested in revenge. This is about safety, respect, and trust. I won't feel safe until you have established no contact with Skunkypoo. Do you understand this?

WH: Yes, I do.

Me: What are you going to do to make me feel safe?

WH: I am working on NC and negotiating a transfer.

Me: How long will this take?

WH: I'm not sure, but I will let you know the moment the transfer has been negotiated. This is causing me a lot of problems at work.

Me: Yes, I can imagine it is. I will be glad when NC is established and we can concentrate our efforts on happier more positive things.



Another thing that OWH says is "Now I don't have to have a guilty concience anymore about having sex with other women." <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/shocked.gif" alt="" />

Just great, huh? I used to be supportive of all my husband's friendships. Believe me, I will be more discerning in the future.

This is extremely tough while the trauma of continued contact exists.

Now that WH is negotiating a transfer of OW and his boss has verified that negotiating is happening, I've switched back to a cautious Plan A. Cautious, because we are still seperated and I am refraining from SF in an effort to remain emotionally detatched. I'm no longer chasing after him or being clingy. If my Plan A was good before, it is very good now. I am stronger, calmer, more confident, and most of all, I have boundaries. His ENs of domestic support, recreational companionship, and physical attractiveness are being met. SF and admiration aren't though. I try to show my admiration for things he does, but basically he knows how disappointed I am in him and that I presently do not trust him.