Don't worry TooSoon, little damage was done. I was taking a sip of tea and you made me laugh so hard that my computer screen got wet. Its long been wiped clean! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

I am glad you got a good laugh from it, we all need those duing trying times.

I have an appointment later today with SH. I am currently coasting in a seperated Plan A at the moment, waiting for NC to be established. The frog prince is visibly enjoying the creature comforts and privledges of being a married family man (except no SF yet) without yet making recovery efforts.

Arkie made a lovley post in another thread that I am going to concentrate on today. I realize that recovery can not start until NC is established and the frog prince has made it through withdrawal. I think this post from Ark gives me a good way to focus and I am sure that SH will set me up with a plan today.

He is Ark's post, since I'd like to have it here in my own thread for reference:


------------------------------------------------------------


You can not set a boundary for anyone else but yourself...

you can not force someone else to work on a marriage..

you are much greater served to release her and yourself from that idea and work only on yourself...

making changes in your marriage that serve it and you and her...

too many people approach this with frustrating themselves in to self indignant pain and demands...

you need to release ALL expectations of her doin A N Y T H I N G.....and I do mean anything...

infact the more you free yourself from worry a rats behind what she is doing...the more you will be energized to make the changes you want....

then you set your boundary as your time limit....
you should work on your marriage releasing her of any responsibility of doing a thing.....and set a time limit...and that time limit is your boundary....and you don't tell her your time limit...
you just do

each day..
doing and making and serving the marriage...with the goal being that she has full glimpses in to how this marriage can and should be...and sees someone who offers light and hope and belief in her ability to be a good good person and loved.....
and she either...

1. decides to join in on the rebuilding...
2. or you have your answer to the question is she willing to try with never asking it..

expecting someone else to enthusiastically work on the marriage will never ever work...
it is the same old tit for tat

show a new way
a way never even imagined...
a loving humble way....
and WS who are really processing what they have done...will have the freedom to bring their burdon to you and will trust you enough to be vulnerable and sorry.....

FWS are very very hurt
they don't trust their own judgements and thoughts...
they are confused
they are sad
and they are usually deep inside somewhere horrified by the person they have become...

they don't have much to offer...so standing in front of them demanding change and commitment from them can be futile....if they aren't there yet...

recovery is a great act of compassion and humility..move slowly...
she is very wounded as are you....
and you can not get water from a stone..

you want her to heal you...yet she herself is not healed and forcing a false healing from her to you will feel good at first in the empty moments....and then be gone...and empty...

WS spent a lot of time disconnecting from their spouses to justify their affair...
they don't immediately reconnect once it ends...
and better served are BS that show compassion and love even at times from a slight distance...giving them breathing room and time to process then those that stand before them and demand change...

it is unfortunately the nature of the beast

ARK

------------------------------------------------------------

LT:

I love that post from Ark as well...what she says has been so true in my experience during Recovery...

Let us know what you learn in your session with SH...

Thanks and best wishes to you.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Mimi, and all,Thanks for checking in.
It's been an emotional afternoon. My sessions with SH are intense and I need time to digest them. SH more or less equipped me with the prod that pokes the arsch towards the carrot on the stick. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" /> I went for a cross country run on my skate skis to sweat things out afterwards. I felt calm and ready for an after-dinner conversation with the Prince.... and he didn't show up. Since xmas he has taken it for granted that he can join in all of our family meals. Yesterday he came 2 hours late ... today no show. Not even considerate enough to call. The girls were crushed, I am angry.

I could start a rant about how the frog prince is entitled to all the privledges and luxuries of a fawning wife and perfect children while retaining the independence of a swinging single ... main thing is someone else takes over his responsibilities... but I'll spare you all and pour myself a glass of wine before I iron his bed sheets.... grrrrr.

LT:

YOU ARE THE WORKOUT QUEEN...YOU WIN!! I can't do more than 10 minutes on a STAIRMASTER....
<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

OT:

What does this mean, if you don't mind sharing?



Thanks.

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" /> I's a tough life in the Alps, Mimi. No whimpy livingroom sports allowed! LOL!


SH told me that being a Plan A doormat until NC is established is no good. He would like to see the Frog Prince putting more effort than that into recovery.

On the one side, I am really fearful of being demanding and scaring WH back into the fog. On the otherside I get the impression that the Frog Prince thinks he and Skunkypoo are already making a HUGE sacrifice to appease my demand of NC and I should be grateful that HE is giving ME a second chance. I am afraid that once NC is established that the frog prince will think that he has done his part for recovery and that's that.

We all know Pepperband's famous post: the carrot and stick of Plan A. Well, a prod is a pointed rod used to stir cattle into action --- stop chewing their cud and get into the barn for milking. Evidently, a reluctant and yet unremorseful XWS needs not only the carrot and the stick, but a prod in the ol' behind to move towards actively participating in recovery.

SH says I should not wait until NC is established to POJA a plan for recovery. SH would like to talk to the Frog Prince again, but he has already said that he doesn't want to do MC. So SH and I talked about me trying to get WH to read HNHN together with me and doing the exercises. Any suggestions or tips here, Mimi? Orchid? Others?

If my needs for affection and openness and honesty were being met, it would contribute greatly to rebuilding trust, helping me feel safe AND it would cut out many of the triggers for painful, traumatic memories that lead to panic attacks.

I think that WH's most important ENs are SF and domestic support. Those are needs I would normally enjoy fulfilling ... if I felt safe instead of used like a doormat.

Since xmas, the frog prince has been having dinner with us every evening. Despite having plenty of work myself, I make sure that the house is clean and organized, the table set, the children and MIL present, and dinner ready to be served when H gets home... just the way he wants and likes it. The night before last he showed up an hour late without previous noticed. Stupid me, behaving like a doormat, didn't say anything, but was evidently visibly irritated. So last night, WH just doesn't show up at all. After putting the children and MIL to bed, I called him to ask why he didn't show up or call, that the children and I were expecting him and were dissappointed.
WH: I din't feel comfortable und welcome the night before, so I decided not to come.
Me: Have you noticed that since Xmas, everyday that you come home from work, the kids and I welcome you and MIL to a set table, dinner and a glass of wine ready, and a fire in the fireplace?
WH: Yes, I've noticed.
Me: Is it something you like and want to continue?
WH: Er, ja, sure, but maybe I should just come on certain days of the week.
Me: I don't think that pretending we are not married on certain days of the week is the solution. I think that a call during the day to let me know what time you will be home for dinner would be a nice way to show your appreciation for the effort I put in for you to come home to a relaxing, nurturing environment. What do you think of that suggestion?
WH: Er, ok.
Me: It would make me feel good; it would make me feel like you care and notice. Can you do this in the future?
WH: Er, ok.


Yee gads! Do you see what I am up against? Pre-A, WH used to call me once midday to see how my day was going and tell me what he had for lunch (so I could avoid a repeat for dinner) and he would call me before leaving work to see if he should pick anything up on the way home and let me know about what time he'd show. These simple considerations seem to be such a burden for aliens. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />
It is so hard to retrain a WS without sounding condescending.

My boundary: I will welcome WS/XWS to a relaxing, cozy family dinner afterwork when he lets me know what time I can expect him.

LT IMHO, it is time to pull the plan A plug. U don't need to show you and your family are valuable. So I suggest the infamous reverse babble, 'I need to feel safe' route. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

When my Xws thought he w/b stupid enough to tell me that 'at least he was here and not w/her', I showed him the front door and told him if that is the best he can do, then go.....we deserve better. Setting the precedence of him gaining his family's trust instead him of being treated like 1st prize is how you should move forward.

You have plan A'd too long. He thinks he is still a prince. Time to decloak the frog, remove the crown.

Here's my version of that convo:

WH: I din't feel comfortable und welcome the night before, so I decided not to come.

[color:"blue"]Orchid: Hm....again?[/color]

WH: ...maybe I should just come on certain days of the week.

[color:"blue"]Orchid: Not gonna work. R u having a relapse into the 'carrie syndrome'? multiple personalities? One not safe t/b around our family? [/color]

WH: No

[color:"blue"]Orchid: R u able to make us feel safe and appreciated? [/color]

WH: Er, ok.


Now I gotta tell you that you handled yourself well and I am just RBing or venting. LOL!!! Just direct it more to putting the ownership of this R on him. He is not longer a prize catch. I had to remind my Xws of that fact. He knows that he wore out some of the love we had for him. He has to live with that scar. That may be too much to dump on him now but don't absorb his selfishness. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

L.

Orchid to the rescue! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

OK. The frog prince and I have agreed to an R talk this weekend. This will be my first attempt at POJA for a recovery plan.

Since it helps me to play out the scenario ahead of time, please give your input:

Me: I have suffered a lot of serious emotional damage. I don't feel safe. Things are happening that trigger memories and images of traumatic events of the past. I don't want to keep repeating the pain of the past. I want to feel safe with you again. I need a safe environment to heal. I want to move forward and build a bright new future, a new and better marriage in which we are both incredibly happy.


Er... what next?

... maybe I could continue with... can we maybe brainstorm some ideas and use that to come up with a plan on how to make me feel safe again and build trust?

I've been following your thread and have been really impressed with how well you've done and how much progress you've made.

Does your H know how seriously you've been considering divorce? Maybe he needs to realize that this is not a game and that you've been seriously considering giving him the boot...

Not sure how that fits into the overall plan, but maybe it's something that he needs do know. It sounds like he's pretty selfish and arrogant right now.

What type of cattle prod does SH suggest?

Well, the cattle prod is whatever I can do to get the frog prince to actively participate in the recovery process without LBing.

The frog knows that I am serious about divorcing him if he does not sever contact completely and forever with Skunkypoo and commit to rebuilding our marriage.

Selfish arrogance = entitlement kind of go with WS territory. The trick I think I need to learn is not to take it too personally and learn to bounce it back.

Little bit too much data.....Xws may have a hard time digesting all that info. Pick 1 or 2 items and stick to that. U may make better progress if you give him less to work on. They are really quite slow mentally......remember the A doesn't need a brain to function so he may be a bit wobbly trying to adapt to using his again. LOL!!!

Don't say what you want.....let him know the need. Keep it simple. He should appreciate that.

I was thinking of starting a thread about how to use a simple line to get the Xws' try POV.

Went something like:

BS: WSH, how would you react if you saw someone treat your D like the way you have treated me?

NOTE: Let the WSH responsd.

- if the WSH says he w/b appalled, ask why....stay real cool. Lst him say his peace and comment as little as possible. Agree where you can but don't say too much. It is vital he hear himself. Then leave him be.

- if the WSH says he would think that's ok.....RUN!!! GET AWAY QUICKLY!!!! This WSH is not safe to be around.

L.

I had a nice weekend with the family. WH and I went mountaineering on Sunday and afterwards had our R talk. The goal (or at least mine) was to POJA a plan for recovery. WH would not agree to IC or MC with the Harleys or anyone else ... if I want to continue to consult with SH on my own that is fine. WH would also not agree to read HNHN together. WH's suggestion is that we take the time to get to know eachother again like we did when we first started going out. I don't like the idea of repeating the past: look where it got us. I used the I don't feel safe approach. What is going to be done to rebuild trust...

We didn't get anywhere. I backed off and we agreed to come back to this again later...

I kept Ark's post in my mind. Here is follows (cut and paste, thanks arkie!):

------------------------------------------------------------

Some of the most painful posts to read here ....is the confusion and turmoil of betrayed spouses....

those post D-day days weeks and sadly months in which so many things are left unanswered, unaddressed and emtpy...

be still.....

In our turmoil and chaos and the gnawing need to fix and address.....bs bring into their hearts more pain and crisis....

be still...

There was once a saying I read somewhere that went something like to really ever understand someone else we must crawl inside of them and feel the gentle beat of their heart....

easier probably for a BS to move a mountain than to grasp and work from that realm....

but be still...
each moment of stillness you can buy grab or gobble is a moment in which you are free from the pain and free from the fear..

fear of doing the wrong thing
fear of saying the wrong thing...

the goal is not marriage rebuilding at any cost...
the goal is guiding yourself to a place of stillness...no matter the outcome....

the anatomy of a WS is that they changed and molded their own thought processes so that they could engage in a affair....

they did this....
they did this....over time and in a way in which they can barely see the reality of this...but they did do it...

be still

it takes time.....

too many posts are from BS with unrealistic EXPECTATIONS which will harm you...

it is unrealistic to think that the thought processes needed to engage in such vile actions....vanishes over night

working through affair issues takes time...gobs and gobs of it...
and if you find yourself standing in a place of demanding change and specified responses, introspection, apologies, and instant change...

be still

for you are causing more grief that you need to burdon....

they did this...and they must undo this...

will they?
the truth is we don't know..
but to ever be a whole person again they darn well better...otherwise they carry their chaos on and on..and in the end no BS needs to burdon that.....

WS, though hard to see when they have used you as a weapon are very very damaged inside.....

they can not face that damage...and since that damage is YOU the BS...they often can not face you..

so they continue to waffle and wallow in the path that brought them to this place...

the way of rationalizing and justifying downright no two ways about it dispicable behavior acts....

force them to the face and process at once..
they will withdrawal
they will deny
they will retaliate

or even worse they will self destruct themselves....

be still....

don't force responses and actions and answers...be still and know that their non-responses , non actions and non answers ARE their answers....and you can hold them accountable to that

be still
and then make your moves....

------------------------------------------------------------

My H never agreed to counseling either. He didn't want to "FEEL BEAT UP"..he said...

I'm certainly not advocating our approach.

Our Recovery has taken a long time and has been difficult.

After two plus years, I can say that WE ARE EXTREMELY HAPPY..WE ARE IN LOVE AGAIN..AND MY H IS WONDERFUL...

However, he most definitely agreed to NO CONTACT, COMPLETE OPENNESS (cell phones, bank accounts, etc.) and EXTREME PRECAUTIONS....Where is your WH'S STAND on these RULES OF PROTECTION?

Mimi,

WH has gotten into the habit of lying to avoid conflict. In the book HNHN Harley describes this type of a liar. If I as a spouse can learn not to put him under pressure and learn to make him feel safe in telling the truth and he makes an effort at radical honesty, this habit can be broken.

... that though is still a long way off. I still have a foggy spouse on my hands that is still in contact with the OW at work. He's still got a lot of rationalizing of cruel and thoughtless actions going on. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I agree that NC for life is a must and I need to see a NC letter as proof that that is his intention. I need proof that he has let OW know that he is 100% committed to his marriage and to protecting me from further injury. This is a must and this is non-negotiable. I don't want the NC letter yet though, not until the moment she is transferred. WH knows this.

Just a quick update to let my friends here know that I have not slipped off the face of the earth.

I'm back in a dark Plan B. I discovered that OW was offered a position in another bank branch, balked, and WS didn't push.

Meanwhile, I do have a life again. I have lots of work and it is going well. The girls came home today with good semester reports. I have delegated most caretaking/nursing tasks of MIL to SIL and WS.

I'm on my last leg here. Readying for Plan B. I just don't think that WS is the man I once believed him to be. Maybe I've just outgrown him. He is no longer a prize worth striving for...

This speaks to the value of PLAN B for you. Right now, he isn't the man that you thought he was..BUT..he can be himself again..once, if ever, out of the fog...

Plan B will allow you to safeguard the love you have left for him...

Hang in there...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Update.

OW was offered a position at another bank branch and she and WH decided it wasn't the right one for her. I found out from WH's boss. WH still spends his lunch breaks and early evenings with OW in fine restaurants, while I care for the kids, house, MIL, and generally be a cake-baking door mat.

I'm not sure if I had a what you would call a nervous breakdown, but I spent 4 days in the hospital drugged into sleepy La-La land.

I've decided on divorce. I deserve better than this. MB has been good to get me started on my own personal healing, and I think that if and when I do decide to marry again, I will be a better partner and a better person because of it.

wow wow wow wow!!!!!!!!!!!!!1

I have been wondering where you were...
thinking of you ...

blessings to you lostin...

ooooh ws is nuts...nuts I tell you....

you will be better than great...

the fat lady hasn't song yet....

but get better and get strong...and get protected...

ARK