Your MC is right about that the WS's feelings are their reality. But they are STILL IN THE FOG. My WH's OW feels that she is a wonderful mother. She says the most important thing in the world to her is her 13 year old daughter.

This is the same daughter that she left when she moved in with my husband. She completely abandoned the girl. Over the last 3 years, she comes by to see daughter for about an hour every couple of weeks. She doesn't go to school activities, family activities, or even help out her struggling husband financially. She works, but spends all of her money on activities with my husband.

So your MC would say that her reality is that the most important thing in the world is her daughter. Can you see where that is completely crazy? That is why we call them foggy.

Moving IMPORTANT boundaries and how it is fatal to respect .... an example

I will allow you to (offensive behavior) as long as you don't leave me

(hit me, screw around, put us into debt, yell at the children, drink yourself blind every weekend, ignore me completely, spend all your free time with someone else, play computer games 30 hours a week ..... etc)

Okay I get that boundaries are important in a M. Still not sure it works for us, at this time. Here's why;

Suppose I want to communicate a boundary that in order to be in a R I need X.

Since WW's complaint is that I'm coercive, that communication is likely to be taken as yet one more coercion/threat/ultimatum etc. Not likely to be accepted well. Even though it is perfectly sensible in my world.

OTOH if - hypothetically - past coerciveness / manipulativeness /control had not been an issue then a boundar communication could be accepted well. The point is that I'm not sure I can effectively communicate meaningful boundaries right now.


But also I'm starting to wonder if I like the boundaries philosophy for us right now. I can see it has some useful aspects. But it seems to be inclined towards drawing lines in the sand that can lead to separation or divorce. Rather than working together in a POJA fashion to find mutually-agreeable outcomes.

Someone on another thread said POJA is like the common region of two persons overlapping boundaries. Not sure about that. In some cases it could be that the two boundaries may not overlap, and maybe there is no solution if we both draw boundaries.

While POJA on the other hand seems to say 'negotiate until you find a solution you can both enthusiastically support'. POJA doesn't seem to allow for no solution; just says 'work it out'. Somehow. In our present condition (w/ preexisting control issues) I think POJA has a better chance of success...

Any thoughts on that?

Well, you are paying a counselor, so I hate to disagree. But for me, it took a long time to figure out and be comfortable with the boundary thing. I can't imagine someone doing it so quickly.

The other thing is that your marriage is in a precarious position right now. I think boundaries are good for a healthy marriage, but don't know about "practicing" them on your wife right now.

Over time, you need to develop them though.

Thx believer. I'll ponder it a bit. I may try to take the MC more in a POJA direction..

***If I present boundaries, isn't she likely to see them as just another means of control, manipulation etc? (I think I would if the situation were reversed!) So I'm also confused as to whether I can use the boundaries concept successfully in this situation. Newly-stated boundaries means new controls, means more reasons for her to hate me.***

WNH -- I think the real problem here is your fear of your WW's anger if you suddenly start insisting on being treated with respect.

You may well have done what a lot of BSs did and what I certainly did -- never asked your spouse any questions about what they were doing or where they were going, and thinking that you were "respecting their space" by not being "controlling."

Now, sadly, just like the rest of us, you have found that this philosophy only leads to a selfish, thoughtless spouse who feels entitled to stay married but act single.

And you *bet* they are going to be furious when you finally start setting the reasonable boundaries that should have been there all along.

Join the crowd. I'm "controlling", too. My WS is furious, too. What's your point?

ALL WS are happy when they can ignore you and only come around when they want something, and ALL WS are angry, miserable and outraged if you suddenly start wanting to be treated with courtesy and respect.

Hang in there. Stop letting her scare you. She's counting on it. I have not seen or heard of a WS yet who didn't act like a spoiled rotten kicking and screaming 13-year-old when they finally run into that newly raised wall called "boundaries."

My extremely selfish and extremely entitled WS finally admitted last weekend that the real problem here is that he has to decide whether he wants to be married or single. He would never have gotten that far if I hadn't started laying down my own boundaries -- not threats, not ultimatums, but boundaries -- quite some time ago. He's been furious about it for a long time, but I never backed down. His admission never would happened if it had. Up until then, to hear him tell it he'd always behaved like a married man in public. And like somebody says, "you can't change what you don't acknowledge."

Mulan

Thanks for the words Mulan. Makes 100% perfect sense.


My sitch: WW came out with that 2 weeks ago after I exposed. She's fence-sitting now, I think it's 50/50 whether she decides to file or not. I just don't think now is the time to put more pressure on her. Later? If she's still around, for sure, definitely.

Right now I'm trying to take pressure off instead. Make her feel comfortable, safe, secure... even if I have to carry the whole load awhile. I can do that. And I can even get an ulcer or two - for now - while wondering what she's doing with her time.

Scared? Yeah I guess. Or maybe using what passes for judgement around here. Or maybe I'm scared. or.. hard to say.

That fine, if you are honest about it. Taking pressure off her is not the same as giving her carte blanc to screw around while married to you.


And if you keep this up for too long, you will most certainly fall out of love with your wife. What is "too long" ? Depends. You should have an idea in mind how long you can/should tolerate fence-sitting. If it puts your health at risk, I just don't see the value.

OK ... if you say so .... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

A marriage with NO BOUNDARIES ... you are OK with OM screwing your wife in your marital bed? How about the couch? Better? What about screwing OM without a condom? Is OK by you? Would you be hesitant to voice concerns about these sorts of issues?

My point?

YOU DO HAVE BOUNDARIES ... don't you? You DO have a point where you'd say ... "This far and no further." ... and mean it.

Right now, your concern should not be on how to communicate your boundaries to your wife but to figure out just what the heck your boundaries are !!!!

Move them around too much and your boundaries have no meaning or relevance.

Move your boundaries around enough and you lose respect for yourself.

Be careful.

Contemplate where your bottom line is ... and be honest with yourself.

Boundaries in television...

Married couples sleeping in twin beds, in their 'jammies'.
Married couples sleeping in a regular bed, in their 'jammies'
Married couples kissing in their bed, in their 'jammies'.
Married couples kissing in their bed, him without shirt, her with sexy gown.
Unmarried couples kissing in their bed, him without shirt, her with sexy gown.
Unmarried couples kissing in their bed, simulating sex, partial nudity.
Adultery partners kissing in their bed, simulating sex, partial nudity.
Gay couples kissing in their bed, simulating sex, partial nudity.

The history of crumbling boundaries on television. As with television, crumbling boundaries in a marriage do not lead to a better place.

That help any?

SD

Weneedhelp,

Perhaps it would help if you look at boundaries as rules governing your behavior instead of rules that govern your wife's behavior.

Boundaries are a bit like a good fire escape plan. They are a mechanism for deciding, in advance, how you are going to act - what rules govern your behavior - in a crisis situation. Just as you normally don't exit your house through your window, you can choose to do that in the case of a fire in order to get to safety. Often, these rules seem like 'common sense' just as going out through a window instead of opening a hot door seems like common sense. What we know, though, is that people often react in ways that aren't in their best interest during times of a crisis. So, we refresh ourselves about what to do in the event of a fire, or an emergency plane landing, etc.

Have you ever had a situation where you'd talk to someone who would push your buttons and you'd always react in some non-productive way? You walk away and hours later, you can think of around 1 million things you should have said instead of what you did say? A boundary can help that. You can acknowledge, in advance, that the situation is likely to happen and plan - ahead of time - what your response will be. You can practice it through visualization. And then, when the uncomfortable situation arises, you can substitute your new, productive behavior in the place of your old unproductive behavior.

A practical example in an affair situation might be regarding exposure. You might decide that you give yourself permission to talk to anyone you feel will help rectify the situation regarding your wife's affair. That's really different from saying "If you have an affair, then I'm going to take out a billboard or shout it from the rooftops." The boundary might be: "Normally, I don't make a habit of discussing our marital problems with <set of people>. In this case, I am going to make a conscious decision to do just that."

Boundaries aren't defended by justification. Usually, if you get into 'explaining' the why's of your boundary it just leads to challenges, bad feelings, and trouble all around. The best explanation is something along the lines of: "This is what I feel I need to do." Don't apologize or over explain the reasons why HER behavior are forcing you to do something YOU don't want to do because that just shoves the responsibility for your behavior over onto her - ie turning it into an ultimatum. When you talk about a boundary, keep it short and simple and only about what behavior she can expect from you consistently.

Boundaries also aren't generally open for negotiation. That's why you need to choose them sparingly and about important, crisis, behaviors for yourself.

What I think might be helpful for you is to really sit down and think about how you want to ACT in this crisis situation. What are some of the difficult things you see coming around the corner? If it leads to divorce, what sets of behaviors are you willing to allow yourself for financial protection, custody protection, etc? What sets of behaviors can you decide RIGHT NOW that you aren't going to give into no matter what the provocation is? (An example of that might be physically striking your wife.) Under what conditions do you give yourself permission to leave the premisis for your safety or hers (anger management is a good thing)?

Don't think of this in terms of what you're willing to ACCEPT so much as how much can you decide now about how you're going to act as this situation wears on.

I see a few red flags in your post. Specifically, I see you trying very hard to manage her experience (her emotions and opinions about you and the marriage) through your behavior. A certain amount of that is fine IF that type of behavior is sustainable for you. For example, if you choose to help build a safe environment by not love busting then that's hopefully a good, sustainable change. If, however, you're trying to manage the situation by choosing to not be radically honest about how this situation affects you, how well you are or are NOT dealing with it, and what types of things you'd like to have in your future, then that behavior is NOT sustainable for you. It turns unproductive when you finally build so much resentment that you can't do it anymore. Then, suddenly, it's "Aha! I just KNEW all your changes were false." Please be careful with that.

So, just to start you off, here are a few questions you can ponder:

What do you think is reasonable behavior for a person in your situation?

Is it reasonable to be angry?
Is it reasonable to cry?
Is it reasonable to dislike your spouse?
Is it reasonable to seperate? If so, when is it reasonable and how should you do it?
Is it reasonable to divorce? If so, when is it reasonable and what should you expect?
Is it reasonable to physcially harm yourself or others?
Is it reasonable to scream and yell?
Is it reasonable to hire a private investigator?
Is it reasonable to track cell phone usage?
....you get the idea?

I hope this helps.

Mys

Oh, a couple more things.

Perhaps the best way for you to work on your boundaries will be to assess what areas of your life contain the most unproductive behaviors right now. Then, try and make a realistic plan for changing your strategy in regards to your behavior.

There are a couple of pitfalls to consider.

First, have you acknowledged the problem and made it about YOU? Remember, your boundaries are not about stopping your wife from doing anything. YOUR boundaries are about how you choose to act in this volitale situation.

For example: let's assume that one problem is that, when you get angry, you commit the love buster of Angry Outbursts.

An inappropriate boundary would be: My wife stops seeing the OM because that makes me angry and I love bust. The reason the boundary is inappropriate is because it deals with your wife's behavior and not yours. Your wife retains control (and tacit responsibility) for your reaction when you're angry.

Another inappropriate boundary would be: I just won't get angry anymore. Well, actually, it's a great deal if you can manage it. But, it's probably unrealistic for you to just decide not to 'feel' angry when your wife is seeing another man.

Another inappropriate boundary would be: I'm going to be angry but I'll just decide not to yell or scream anymore. That one is inappropriate because it doesn't describe what you will do in exchange! The whole purpose of this exercise is to figure out what you're going to do that you feel will be productive to the situation instead of destructive to the situation.

An appropriate boundary would be: I'm in a situation where I'm likely to become angry (or I AM angry all ready). I choose not to yell or scream anymore when I'm angry. Instead, I will physically remove myself from the area (go to the bathroom if you have to) until I regain emotional control. It is NOT OK for me to yell and scream regardless of the situation. That is a plan that doesn't depend on what your wife does or doesn't do to provoke you. It acknowledges that you're likely or that you're all ready angry. And, it provides an alternate behavior for you.

When I consider boundaries, I look at a few things.

1.) Does it acknowledge that an unproductive situation is LIKELY to occur (as opposed to building in avoidance)?

2.) Does it deal with what I contribute or experience during the situation. Sometimes, a situation isn't unproductive because of your behaviors. An example would be you drawing a boundary around allowing someone to yell and scream at you. The unproductive behavior in that situation is that you stick around and listen to words that harm your sense of self. Sometimes, boundaries are about protecting yourself from toxic environments. In other words, there's a difference between reviewing and noting contact on a cell phone log vs. allowing yourself to obsess over the cell phone longs .. carrying them with you and re-reading them over and over as you become more and more distressed.

3.) Is it sustainable? Can I commit to it? Is it realistic? I think the realistic test is where most boundaries flounder and fail. For example, I'd like to loose some weight. I could decide, right now, that from this moment on, I will eat 3 nutritionally balanced meals a day with a total caloric count for 24 hours not to exceed 2000 calories. It's POSSIBLE. It's highly unrealistic. I could also decide that I need exercise, too. So, every morning starting tomorrow, I'm going to get up and run 20 miles. It's POSSIBLE (well... maybe). It's highly unrealistic. You could decide that you'll never get angry again and thus avoid all those unpleasant behaviors (referring back to the problem example I gave.. not trying to slander you and suggest you have anger issues <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" /> ). It's POSSIBLE (maybe...). It's highly unrealistic.

What IS realistic is that your wife is likely to do things that hurt you while you're dealing with the affair. What IS realistic is that you're going to find some things about yourself and the way you've maybe acted in the past that you aren't proud of. What IS realistic is that your wife is going to behave in ways that affect your personal sense of self and safety. What IS productive is to acknowledge that now and give some thought to how you might mitigate some of the damage that is done through managing your own behavior.

This isn't about prevention, it's about planning. It's not about control, it's about being compassionate to yourself in building in some actions that soothe your hurts and making sure you take some time to heal yourself in ways that are meaningful to you.

Anyway, I'd better get to work and stop babbling on. I wish you the best.

Mys

Wow. That is a lot to think about. I know it's vitally important to understand these things. I have a lot of work to do. Thank you all very much for your generous concern and sharing.

The posting times made me wonder when do you angels sleep? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Just took time to read more carefully. Thanks again for putting so much into your post. It had to have taken a couple of hours to get that articulated so clearly. I appreciate it.

OK this is going to take some time to think about. Probably ongoing for many years! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

While I get started thinking about all that I'll first clarify the sitch.

First, I think the A is over, but not sure. After exposing, OMW says that OM doesn't respond to WW anymore. And I don't see evidence of contact, but of course they could have just gone further underground. I'm hoping to be able to develop more info sources.

Second, WW knows most of my feelings about her A. I'm very upset. But come to think of it I haven't said it's more about her lies, deceptions, and dismissals of me rather than about him so much.

And I may file, but I'm not sure she knows that. In the meantime I'm playing cards close to the vest, Plan Aing, and adding love units. But if WW does not return spiritually to the M fairly soon, that could be a boundary for me. 4 months of alienation already! I know that's not a long time by MB standards, but it feels like plenty to me.

Third, I know WW may file anytime. She's trying to figure out what she wants to do with her life. And nursing her new resentments about my exposing, and her old resentments about my controlling behaviors. We're currently in-house separated. Communications are a bit better recently, but that may mean only that she's getting more comfortable with a D decision rather than with the M. I really don't know, and don't want to ask right now.

I guess that's it for now. It wasn't really on point for the boundaries topic, but the background may help. I will think more carefully about boundaries and come back later. Thanks again!

U are nearing a turning point where your heart and mind are syncing up. When it does, you will not fear the decisions you need to make. Whether a WS files or not, the BS does so when he/she is truly ready (being in sync helps).

Keep moving in the right direction. Many of us had to get the D or start the D paperwork before reality hit the Xws deep enough for them to change.

Don't be surprised if you go that route. It is almost par for the course.

take care,
L.

Ouch don't say almost par for the course. I don't want to think that's normal or likely in our situation. Not quite sure how to think about the 'in sync' comment but thanks for that.

What I really want is for WW to come around and start working with me to make a new better M.

I have another q about boundaries. Can a boundary be around an abstract concept? I came up with a sort of list intended to help me to think about what my boundaries are. But the one that really jumped out at me was 'respect for me'. If W can't respect me (and be nice to me) with all that entails, then what's the point of being M'd? Can a boundary be around an abstract concept like respect?

That's a big word that can be stretched a lot. Extreme examples: 'respect' can cover any thing from the A to doing her share of filling the car with gas.

And, if W can't treat me respectfully then I don't think I want to be M'd to her. 'Then D her right now!' says the devil on my shoulder. But I think it makes sense to take a little more time to see how this A thing works out. If the A is truly over, and if she comes around as MB predicts, and if the outcome is that we respect each other, then I can live with that and forgive the A. That's inside the boundary.


Another q: I think that 'respect' boundary is measured against a sort of basket of needs. Maybe she is extremely good in 10 ways, and fails horribly in a couple. Then is the net effect a feeling that she respects me? Or not...What seems to be important to me is the net of all those attributes rather than a single attribute.

The Boundaries book seems to be in terms of single issues, not in terms of a basket of issues. To me, thinking one issue at a time just doesn't seem to cover the complexity of a committed relationship. Any thoughts on that?

My take on all this is that you have two sets of circumstances to deal with. Right now, you are in Plan A at the very beginning of recovering a very damaged marriage, due to an affair. That's one set of circumstances. It is temporary, yet evolving, as your W defogs. The other circumstance would be in a stabilized marriage, far into the recovery stage, where life has reached a platform of stability, and you are both busy meeting each other's needs and growing a better marriage.

Due to some of the philosophical techniques of Dr. Harley as part of Plan A, your boundaries would be somewhat different during the current set of circumstances, as compared to boundaries that you would want in place in a stabilized marriage.

For example, in Plan A, you are treating your W with kid gloves, as her temperment is so volatile and (as compared to normal) unpredictable. Once the marriage is stabilized, perhaps even just fully out of the fog, you can treat her as you would any other "normal" person.

I believe your IC wants you to look at the big picture, and what your boundaries need to be in a healthy recovering marriage. Right now, you need a special version of "Plan A, just broke up the A boundaries", that will be in constant flux as your recovery evolves.

One of your current, and long term boundaries will be "no contact" with the OM. Right now that is of extreme importance, due to the possibility of the rekindling of the affair. In two years, when your W is totally defogged, NC is still important, BUT, if she follows the WS handbook, she will view the OM with disgust and as a repulsive person with whom she desires no contact.

So the boundary is still needed, but the perspective has dramatically changed. It will fade to a back burner issue, if not completely away.

Here's another example. My W and I have POJA'd an agreement that neither of us will purchase anything for "household" use in any amount exceeding $100, independently of the other. Now, suppose my W goes out and buys a Kitchen Aide mixer for $300.00. She has "crossed" a boundary we have mutually agreed upon. Am I going to file for divorce over this? Of course not. This is a matter of a one time, non-marriage threatening boundary crossing that needs attention, conversation, a re-statement of boundaries, and a recommittment to the existing boundary, but not any more than that. And when she does cross a boundary the ensuing confrontation needs to be done in a manner that is adult, compassionate, without Love Busters, and totally in a positive, constructive and loving manner.

Your boundaries define who you are. They are widely varied in scope and importance, and they constantly evolve as you grow in experience and maturity. Look at the boundaries that the Reverend Billy Grahm has kept in place for most of his adult life, to become the respected man he is today. Then look at former President Bill Clinton, and see how his lack of, or disregard for boundaries have become part of his legacy.

Defining and enforcing your own boundaries will likewise become your legacy.

Make sense?

Best wishes,
SD

PS: Your wife's respect for you will return slowly, as you show her your "changes" are permanent, when you return to work, when she emerges from the fog and is able to face the horrible damage she's done to herself, and to the marriage. She has a lot of "reckoning" to do, both internally, and as a part of a marriage. It's a slow, tedious process that you can only help enable, but its more like the slow, constant changing of seasons than it is switching on a light. Stay positive, stay committed and stay patient. As my father told me about patience, "the steady wind bends the tree".

SD

Shattered you always make sense, batting 1000. Puts you in a tough place though, nowhere to go but down. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Makes great sense that boundaries are one way while (hopefully) at start of NC withdrawal/early recovery, and another way later.

This is way off-topic for the boundaries thread, but what the heck. Q: how often do WSs act according to script, i.e. fog lifting, returning to work together on the M, etc. I have to say that right now that seems not entirely likely in our case. Do you find that e.g. 50% of the cases end in that script? 10%? 90%? I'm sure every case is different, but still just trying to get a tenuous grip on the probilities.. Thx as always.

Wow we actually had a nice family dinner tonight. I left open an opportunity for WW to help cook, surprisingly she picked it up and the kids helped too. After dinner she hung around to talk while the kids went elsewhere. Hugely surprising and very pleasant. I'm starting to think the fog may be lifting a tiny bit. Can that be? At less than 3 weeks after exposure? I won't get too excited, tomorrow will likely be back to the old crud.

She'd seen my Boundaries book (on top of HNHN, LB, SAA and a dozen others) and was curious why I was reading it. We had a little 5-minute book club. Turns out MC has had her working on boundaries for some time, I wasn't aware of that. Tonight she said she thinks I've always set the boundaries for both of us. I guess that ties to the 'controlling' perception she has. Could have been a dangerous topic, but we got through it fine.

Seems like it's all tiptoes and diplomacy in this business? Guage her mood carefully - no room for mistakes - then decide how many yards you should try to gain - if any - or just punt if you think that's best for tonight...etc, etc, etc for a zillion nights in a row. There must be many BS without a feeling for this kind of stuff, who just completely don't get it at all and go around bumping into things in the dark continually. How do they stand a chance of putting things back together?