Can you go visit her? Maybe a suprise visit?

Have you done any exposing of OM to family and friends? He has a long time to wait for WW to return too. Perhaps with pressure he will seek out easier opportunities. If you spy on him maybe he already is "cheating" on your wife.

She'll likely discuss more if you put pressure on the relationship. She is trying to withdraw from the relationship with you. Taking her to active conflict is actually a step up. She may be trying to be "nice" to you to ease you with the concept of divorce and keep you as a buddy and friend. IMO, accepting crumbs from her will not make this issue go away.

The distance btwn the 2 of you just makes it so hard to advise you.

Mr. W

Again, MrWondering and UVA, thank you so much for the input. I do have some questions about what you've both mentioned, but first let me clarify a couple of things.

UVA, I imagine that the 15 day trip you are referring to is the possible one she has been planning with her niece? So far, it looks like that might not happen at all, due to a lack of money for it. If she goes with her family (niece, sisters, etc) then I wouldn't be too worried, since they are aware of the A, and as far as I can tell they are against it. If she were to go alone, that would be another story, and I wouldn't just let that happen without saying something (perhaps even mentioning my concerns to her family?).
I also agree that I need to have a honest talk with our children about what is happening. This last time the opportunity just didn't present itself due to the phone being passed around and eventually ending up with my W. An opportune time would be when my W isn't there and I don't have to worry about any interruptions.

As far as not being a doormat...I've read the 'what is plan A/plan B?' article, and I've read a lot of other's posts here. Many seem to say that while in Plan A, try to meet the WS's unmet emotional needs, avoid LBs, avoid relationship talks. Don't be confrontational.
I see that if something happens that crosses a boundary (such as involving the children with the OM - which is something I did talk to her about when I first found out our youngest knew), naturally I need to tell her so and why. I'm trying to find out *how* to talk about the issues of the A and my feelings about it, without it being considered a relationship talk? Maybe it's a problem with my communication skills that make it hard for me to distinguish that line....I know I'm not explaining myself very well right now, I wish I could articulate the confusion I'm having with how to work this plan....(I have read the carrot and the stick and the lighthouse post, as well).

MrWondering, do you mean pressure as far as discussion goes, or pressure on his end of the relationship? I'd like to find out more about him, but I'm not sure how. Can you suggest any good places to look up that kind of info?

I'll leave it at that for the moment, I have other questions/thoughts but I don't want to get too carried away.

Thanks again for trying to help me out, I'm sure I must sound like a broken record hehehe. I truly do appreciate any advice anyone can give me on how to make this a successful Plan A.

Do you know who OM is? Then google him. Go to his workplace and have a talk with him. Remain calm. Who knows what kind of crap WW is feeding him about you. He might think you marriage is over or that you don't care about the affair. She is likely deceiving him about your feelings. He needs to know you intend to fight for your marriage (figuratively, not physically). Read Johng's thread he called and has OM on his side...hopefully.

Try to find out who his parents are. Where he went to high school might help. His parents are likely not to be pleased. You just tell them the situation and inform them you are fighting for your marriage and any assistance they can give you would be appreciated. Don't expect much but at least you are making life uncomfortable in fantasyland.

OM will then be pressured to give it up and look for easier fish in the sea so to speak. He's single why not get a single babe instead of wife. If you only call him and he does not know your face you could follow him out some friday or saturday night and take pictures of him with your cell phone chatting up other women. A little stalkingish but if you caught him "cheating" on your wife or even lying that he went out to the bar you can get WW wondering.

Then when WW finds out you did this she goes into panick mode. You have only demonstrated how far you will go to fight for her and if you remain strong and vigilent you can ignore her anger and attempt to get at the root of the problem. That your actions are a consequence of her inappropriate behavior. She will get pissed but an angry wife you can deal with (i.e.-conflict is better than withdrawal) whereas an ever deeping affair with your inferred complicity spells doom for recovery. Perhaps, a little of the "stick" of Plan A is in order.

Getting the info I don't know more than what I said. Just become your own Private Investigator and sniff him out.

Mr. W

p.s.- Record any interactions with OM as you may get him to say some pretty weak statements and he will twist the story of the confrontation to your WW to make him look really good. Another lie you can expose to WW at the right time.

I had a post all written out, and lost it because my session expired.....

I can't take this.

Had a major LB phone conversation with the W. I found a personal website belonging to the OM and his brothers, with photos of them and family. One of them was of the OM and my W together, looking very happy together....this is the second time I've written about it and I can't stop crying each time I think about it, because that should be me in that picture...When I saw it the first time I ended up breaking my keyboard....

I love my W very much, but I am starting to wonder if I should even be trying to make this marriage work.

Truth is, this isn't my wife's first A. This is her 3rd.

The first was about 4 years into her M with her ExH during their first "separation". They had been arguing about money and a few other things. She wanted him to stay and help support their family, while he wanted to go back to their home country and work to support his mother. They fought, and he ended up hitting her and left. While he was gone, she got to know a guy at her work, and they ended up having an A. Someone at her work called her ExH and told him what was going on, and he came back. I'm not sure if he confronted her (I imagine so), but I do believe he confronted the OM (my W said she believed this as well), because he soon disappeared (joined the army) and never contacted her again.

I'm not sure how soon my W and her ExH got back together, but they did eventually. My wife always told me that it wasn't the same though, and she stayed with him only because he was helping her out, and the OM was no longer there.

About 2 years later, they were living in the basement of her sister's house, sleeping in different beds, paying separate rent, no physical contact, etc. He was doing the usual, going out with friends, drinking, etc. She kept telling him that he should just leave her, but he refused.
She started to make friends with another guy at her work, and that eventually became an EA. This went on for a few months. Eventually, her husband ended up hitting her again, and she left the house for good. I'm not sure if it happened during an argument over the A, but it's very possible. With the help of a shelter for battered women she eventually got her divorce.

She had told me all of this, and I had always thought it was only due to the way her ExH was. I had never imagined that she would have done it to me (Mistake #1, I know) because I'd always tried to be everything her husband was not. I was affectionate, never manipulative, never abusive, caring...
But then I screwed up by spending too much time on the computer and not giving her attention.

She tells me now that if you don't take care of things you end up losing them. Once love is gone, there is nothing she can do. If there's no love in a relationship, she's not interested. That her ExH also says that he still wants another chance, and he's changed too (no more drinking, etc.) He says the same things about change, but she doesn't feel that way about him anymore. She just cares about him as a friend and the father of her children. She still cares about me too, because I was good to her and I supported her so much, but the love is gone and there is nothing she can do about it. She just cares about me as a friend. (I know it's textbook, and all this came out of a very rough phone conversation, but still....)

I just have to wonder if looking at all that's happened in her past marriage, the marriages of her parents and her sisters, and her past relationship with her father, if maybe this situation is more complicated than me not giving her all the attention she needs. Maybe her views on love and marriage have really been colored too much by all these things that have happened.

I know much of this comes in the wake of the convo with my W, and it was pretty heated so it's possible that some of the things she said weren't necessarily the truth. Though some of what she says does seem consistent with her actions.

It came out at one point that there was no way we could work it out, because I had told my mother and grandmother about what she had done. I simply told her that it didn't matter, because they still loved her very much, and they can forgive just like I can. She replied, it doesn't matter, because *she* wouldn't feel comfortable. And she can be that way...the same way she refuses to talk to her mother right now.

Another thing is when I asked her if she was so sure she no longer loved me, why didn't she tell me? She replied, would you have accepted it?

I know these things are *meant* to hurt me, and they do. I know I need to ignore them, and try not to say things that provoke these things, but I've always been too sensitive and overly emotional to begin with. In this situation I'm just worse.

Maybe I'll get into the phone call in more depth tomorrow...I'm worried how much damage I may have done tonight.

I'm sorry, I just can't sleep....I had a talk with my mother, which helped for a short bit, but after I hung up I just couldn't get images of my W and the OM being together out of my head....I've been bawling my head off for almost an hour now.

I wish I could just shut my emotions off, and stop *thinking*.

I just truly don't know what to do. I love my wife incredibly and dearly...almost too much. Before I would look forward to hearing her voice and talking to her...now sometimes I don't even *want* to call her. I don't know if it's the emptiness of our conversations now, or that I don't want to get hurt more by something she says, or if I'm just plain too upset and angry to talk to her at all. Perhaps it's a combination of the three.

I wish I could just fall asleep...

Something interesting I just remembered that I thought I'd share. During our LoveBuster session on the phone, I got a pretty good indication that the family around her is aware of my W's intentions when she said flat out loud (long distance) in the middle of the living room 'I love OM!' I'd be very surprised if her family there didn't hear it. I just have to wonder what they are thinking of the situation. If it's a 'blood is thicker than water' acceptance or what.

I'm going to go lay my head down and hope I knock myself unconscious along the way.....

Well, it's morning...my head hurts a lot. Don't feel much better than I did last night, but I'm not crying right now so that's a plus.

One good thing about finding that site last night was that it has the emails of his brothers (maybe sisters as well) and their SOs. I think finding his parents might be difficult since I think they live in Brazil.
I tried running a search on the phone number I have from my W's chat logs, but for some reason it came up registered under a different name. I may see if I can find the house, though, it's possible that he's just renting there.

I'm going to start writing the letter that I'm going to send to his family today. At the moment, I'm still debating whether this whole fight is worth it, and I suppose that might be making it a little bit easier to accept that she will be angry that I do this, she may not come back, and we may not be able to work this out. I love her incredibly, and we've had some great times together, but there are things I'm realizing that she used to do that made me feel awful, too. Things I just learned to accept because I loved her and I wanted to be with her. She has a very hot temper, and if someone irritates her she doesn't hesitate to say something to that person. And she got irritated a lot with me. Many times, especially over the last year and a half, she'd get angry if I was absent minded, took a wrong turn, misplaced some money, didn't understand what she was saying (in her native tongue) etc. Later on she'd say she was sorry, she just was irritable because her leg hurt or she had a headache. She'd then say she didn't know how I could stand to be with her when she's like this all the time. I'd say, 'Because I love you...it's ok, I understand that you don't really mean it, you just don't feel good.' The truth is it always made me feel like crap. That I could never do anything right.

Who knows, maybe it was just her nerves getting to her, but sometimes I wonder if the headache was just an excuse for the way she was acting. It was often her way of cutting short a conversation she didn't like,'You're making me mad and it's giving me a headache'. Maybe she was venting her anger at me for something else, or about some *other* greater issue she had with me. It's hard to say, it's possible to follow it all the way back trying to find out where the problems started, and I know it's pointless to be worrying about it now.

So I'm going to try to expose the OM...I may hold off for a little bit to let the negative feelings from the convo last night die down a bit, also to see if I can track down any more family members. If she gets angry, fine. At this point I don't care. She's upset that I told my mother and grandmother, because now she says even though I say that they still love her and can forgive her, she can never feel comfortable around them again. My feelings are (I didn't say this, but I'd *really* like to...): If you really don't want people to look at you badly for doing something you *know* is wrong...*DON'T DO IT AND DON'T **KEEP** DOING IT*. Every action has a consequence and she has to accept that. I'm tired of her making me feel guilty for her own actions.

As far as the phone convo went...
I ended up calling her because of the photo that I saw. I know it's a really a bad idea to call when I'm in that kind of state, but I really wasn't thinking straight. I've had all these questions in my head for the last month, but I've been hesitant to ask them worrying about how the conversation would go or if they would just cause more problems. After seeing that picture I just stopped caring.

I did try to keep it civil, and keep it to a polite, calm conversation. I told her about what our eldest said, and that it meant that all the children knew now what was happening. She asked what I told him, and I said that I wasn't going to lie to them, and repeated what I said to him. I said that regardless I had been hoping that they wouldn't get pulled into the middle of this, but children are smart and tend to figure out what is happening fairly quickly. She makes a comment about 'if you're going to tell your mom, grandmother and the whole world, then I have a right to tell my children'. I asked her if she was the one who told the children in the first place she said no, but later she said that she told our middle child when he asked about it. I said that she had told me that she *hadn't* told the children, and she didn't say anything.

We went on talking for awhile...I can't remember exactly how things played out, but I can highlight some things that were said apart from what I mentioned in my earlier post.
It came out that she didn't love me anymore and that was just the way it was, I asked her why didn't she just tell me that she didn't love me anymore 3-4 months ago. She replied that she didn't know how to tell me.
I asked why didn't she tell me when she was starting to fall out of love with me? She replied that I'm not a child and she shouldn't have had to tell me that. I imagine this means that I should have been able to tell what was happening without her saying anything.
I said I was worried about the children because they learn mostly by following our example. She replied that the kids managed fine when she left her ExH, and they ended up in a better situation.
She said that she used to love her ExH but now she just cared for him as a friend, and she used to love me a lot too, but I spent all the time in the computer and left her alone and now she just cares about me as a friend, as well.
She then said that when the love is gone it doesn't come back, and that's it. I said that love isn't like that, it just doesn't disappear. She replied, then I guess I never loved you then.
She said she is sorry that she hurt me, but what is done is done and we can't change the past.
I asked her to at least think about giving the marriage another chance, and she said that she had nothing to think about. She had no interest in a relationship if there is no love.
I said it hurt me very much when I thought of what was happening, that she was with him, and that she was cheating on me. She replied that she *wasn't* cheating. I said,'We are married, right? I am your husband and you are my wife? That is cheating.'

Her ExH came up in the conversation, her saying (repeatedly) that the same thing happened with him and how that was proof that she couldn't learn to love someone again. I kept sayig that it wasn't the same situation, that we weren't the same people, that he had treated her much worse than I ever had. She'd say she's not comparing me to him, but in all honesty in some level I think she is whether she knows it or not, just from the amount of times she brings it up.

She said that regardless of what I said or did, I was on the computer all the time because I *wanted* to be there. This proving that I really didn't want to be around her or give her attention apparently. I tried telling her that I'm sorry that she felt that I left her alone, but in all honesty I always was thinking of her, and I loved when she was around and when she talked to me, and I adored her completely.

I told her that I couldn't be happy as long as she was with the OM, and there would be no way of us fixing the problems we have as long as the A continued.

At some point I made some comment, but I can't remember what it was though. Her response was 'I already told you that you can quit and get a divorce if you want to.' I replied that I didn't want a divorce. I want our marriage to work, and I have hope that we can make it work, but it won't if both people aren't willing to try.

I ended up bringing up a comment her ExH made to me, where he said that she would end up doing the same thing to me that she did to him. This was definitely a bad comment to make, I realized that immediately. She responded that I should just give up then since she'll just end up cheating on me again. I tried to apologize for it, and said that I didn't believe that would happen as long as we went to a MC and learned how to communicate our feeling better.

Around and around it went, until we ended up saying the same things over and over again with slight variations. I would get frustrated, stop myself and say i'm sorry I'm *not* trying to fight with you, that's not what I want to do. She'd reply that maybe we should just hang up then. After that it would start up again.

At the end, I tried to apologize for some of the worst things I said to her, and she said that there wasn't any taking them back. You said things and there they are. If you said them it's because you meant them. I replied that sometimes when we are hurt or upset we say or do things that hurt the other person when we don't really mean to. She said she was sorry.

Basically a big mess, and I'm not sure where it leaves us right now. We calmed down a bit and chatted about other things for a bit, but then it felt like we were going to get going again on the fighting and I just told her that I was going to go. She said ok that's fine. We could talk later. I said to take care of herself. She said goodbye and take care of myself, too. I said I will. I said I loved her (in her language it's not the *LOVE* love, but love nonetheless), and she said she did too. That threw me off a bit since her only response to that since I'd come back was 'I know'. She said again that I take good care of myself. And I said I would for sure.

And that's that. I really need to learn to control my emotions definitely. I've always been extremely sensitive. Even when I fall in love, I fall *hard* and deep very fast. Luckily I don't do it too often. There have only been 3 people in my life where I have felt that strongly, and the first 2 were really bad ideas. My W was the first that actually turned out all right for awhile. But I definitely need to learn that control if I'm going to have any chance of making this work. Otherwise I'm going to keep doing and saying things that make things worse.

Small update, maybe if I do more periodic posts I can keep the size down LOL.

Gave the W a call early today, since I know she'll be out until late (going into the city with her niece and the traffic there is terrible). Common pleasantries, how are you? fine. what are you up to?, etc.

I basically came right out and said sorry for (re)acting the way I did the other night on the phone (she said 'it's ok'). Some of the things I said were necessary, such as how I feel about her A and that I want it to stop, that we can't move forward until it does, that I love her and want to save our marriage, and that I want our children to learn to do the right thing.
The rest though was due to me losing control of my feelings and letting myself say things I really shouldn't have and didn't really mean. She said again that I didn't have to worry about it, in any event she already said that when we say things (not sure if she just means things like *that*) it's because we really mean them. I told her that I really didn't think that was true. We have both in the past said mean things to eachother, but it happens because we are hurt at the time. I just said that we should let it go and just say that we both said things we didn't mean so that we don't keep revisiting the topic.

I'm sure that arguement of hers will come up again at some point, mainly when she's trying to make me feel bad for saying something, but I'll just keep gently responding that I don't agree. Maybe offer the example that I honestly don't believe that any mean thing that she may have said in the past to me is truly how she feels about me.(?) Or not? I won't mention it unless she uses that line again, though, for sure.

I am sorry, but this will not be very MB like advice.

I would say that your wife has a very poor character and she doesn't have a clue what real love is. She is bound to go from man to man indefinitely because she will always loose her feeling of 'love'. She hasn't a clue about the meaning of commitment and good moral values.

I know you care deeply for your step-children. At this point even though it will be painful to go through, I would cut your losses and DV her.

You can do better than this, possibly meet someone who you can have your own children with. Someone who may be a better wife than your wife would ever be capable of being. Someone who would value fidelity, love, and commitment...and maybe with a bit less baggage.

I know you may have neglected her for a time. You have learned some valuable lessons and the MB principles which will help any future relationship you enter into.

Don't look for a woman in distress that you think you can save. I think you went into this marriage from that basis and got screwed.

NB,

I have not forgotten about you. I am reading all your posts. My reaction will be more on the same line as Trix. But I will say more soon.

Hello,
UVA, thanks for sticking around! I'm really look forward to hearing what you have to say.

Trix, I appreciate your candor(right word?). I've had some friends that have said basically the same as you. I'm coming to realize that I may have to accept that it just might not work out. I suppose that's an essential in this sort of situation just to keep one's sanity <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" /> It's in those moments when I realize that as much as I love my wife and as much as I would love for us to work things out, I *will* survive without her if we can't, that I can feel the most calm and think the most clearly about the situation.

It's not that it was a terrible marriage. For much of the time we did get along, and when we got along we were really good together, lots of laughter, chatting, affection and everything. I think it was when we had issues with something the other was doing that we had problems (I suppose that's a given, hmm?). We just didn't know how to communicate with eachother about that sort of thing. We're a couple of classic conflict avoiders, I think.
From what I see, if there was something that was bothering her, she wouldn't say anything (or say that it was OK) for fear of getting into an argument about it, or making me angry. Then eventually she'd get so fed up that she'd explode. Perhaps (just guessing) she manifested this anger by harping on the stupid little things I did. There were times that I could tell she was angry about something, but she would say everything's fine, don't worry about it.
On my end, I didn't want to get into fights or make her angry either. If I saw she was upset, I'd try to get her to tell me why and she'd clam up. Eventually I'd just let it go because I hated the silent treatment. Same thing if I tried to discuss something that bothered me with her. She says she doesn't want to argue and goes silent. Again, I'd back down.
It's interesting though, that during those weeks prior and during our trip last September that her temper with me was at it's worst (due to the A). She said a lot of things to me and about me that hurt a lot. Pushed me away a lot, didn't want me to touch her, etc. I'd try to find out why, but I'd be confrontational "Why are you always doing this? Why won't you spend time with me?" and she'd respond with what are possibly "fog" responses "You spent all your time on the computer and ignored me and now it's my turn!" and (I'm not sure how to translate this one perfectly so I say it as best I can since she used this one a lot) "Me acustombraste asi!" basically "You made me this way" meaning distant and not wanting attention/affection from me. Anyway, eventually I just broke down and calmly told her 'Look, you have been treating me very badly for 2 months, and it makes me feel terrible. What's more is I don't know why. I know I've hurt you with how I'd been acting, but I'm trying to change all that...etc." She responded. She admitted that she had been very harsh towards me, and she didn't know why. Also that she knows that she hasn't wanted me to touch her either. She said that she'll try to not act that way anymore, and truthfully she didn't. She started acting much more friendly and affectionate towards me from that day on until I left. Granted, 2-3 days later I found the evidence of her A and confronted her about it, so take all that for what you will...LOL.

So communication was great about the good things, but almost nonexistant regarding the other issues. I see that even if we were to get past the A, there would be a *lot* of work we would have to do to make this work. It would also be up to her to accept that there are things we both did wrong, and I'm not sure she's going to be willing to admit that. I also see that it's unavoidable that there will be some baggage that would have to be dealt with as well.

It's possible much of what she said to me the past couple of days was fog talk, brought on by the way I presented (and reacted to) the issue we were discussion. On the other hand, perhaps it is just the way she feels. Hard to say, and something to think about.

By the way, Trix, I'm not trying to refute what you are saying, at all. Nor am I trying to simply make excuses for her behavior (or mine for that matter). Much of what I write here is stream of consciousness expressing of the thoughts that are going through my head at the moment. Just so you don't think I'm waffling. In all honesty I am not sure of *anything*. There is definitely some part of me that feels that what you say may be the issue. Not everyone's meant to be together, and not everyone works well together. I'm just trying to see it from all angles, though, before I make any definite decisions that I may end up regretting later on.
I've set up a solo appointment with MB this coming Monday, so I'm looking forward to hearing their take on my situation.

I am glad you are going to talk to Steve Harley or Jennifer Chalmers. I am sure they can help sort out the best course of action.

That's what I'm hoping for. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thinking about the exposure of the OM, I'm also starting to think that I should include her family as well. Actually not thinking about it, I'm sure I want to. Sure many of them already know *something* is happening, but I don't think they know the details of how it's happening, nor do they know what my stance on the issue is. For all I know, she may have told them that I'm ok with it or something. Also, I know the OM is using an chat ID of my SIL which makes it look like that's who my W is chatting with instead of the OM. I imagine that there is some phone conversations happening too, which they may not realize exactly who she is speaking with. If I do that, I may make it more difficult for her to have contact with the OM, either by her family there noticing and saying something (I know it may be a long shot, but it's worth it I think) or simpy making her more nervous about it.

I realize that my desire to not anger my W is the same issue that helped cause some problems in our M, and if we're going to save our M I'm going to have to stop doing that.

My question is, can anyone point me to a good example of an exposure letter? I realize it would be different for every situation, but I could use some pointers.

Thanks everyone!

OK here is something I wrote up, maybe I can get some opinions on it...I've altered somethings so as to not reveal identities and such:

Hello,
My name is 'BS', and I am the husband of 'WS'. We will have been married for 3 years on Feb 14 of next year. We have 3 lovely children from her previous marriage: S11, S8, and D6, who I love as if they were my very own. I love Alejandra with all my heart, and I wish nothing more to live out the rest of my life by her side as her husband.

At the moment however, our marriage is in great danger. Since a time somewhere in the months of late June/early July, my wife has been having an affair with another man whose name is 'OM'.

I myself discovered the affair was happening on Sept 15, 2005, during our trip to her home country. I had suspected for some time that something was wrong, as she had been acting differently ever since her affair had begun. I discovered proof of what was happening when I discovered emails and chat logs exchanged between my W and the OM.

I had also discovered that my W had also been secretly chatting with the OM while I and members of her family were around her. The way this was done was my W would use the Messenger ID &#8220;#1&#8221; and the OM would use the Messenger ID &#8220;#2&#8221; posing as her SIL in case I or any of her family were around. As for now, it is possible that my W has begun using a different Messenger ID, perhaps to hide that fact that she is online and chatting from me.

I am fairly certain that my W has been in phone contact with the OM as well, but it is difficult to prove that. Perhaps the phone bill will show a number that does not belong to either I, my family, or a member of my W&#8217;s family.

I understand that my actions (I was spending far too much time on the computer, and not enough time with my W) in the recent past before the affair have made my W feel as though I did not care for her, or that I did not pay attention to her. I sincerely did not realize that my actions were hurting her. If I had known, I would have changed my ways much sooner, because to hurt my W is the last thing I would ever want to do. As it is, when I realized in early July that my actions *had* been hurting her, I put a stop to them immediately. I stopped playing on the computer, I started taking the time to listen to her, I set aside all the time I had to spend it with her.

I made these changes, because I value my W very much. She is a truly amazing person who has touched me like no other has. I love her more than anything in the world.
I value our family, our children, and our marriage. I would do anything to save our relationship, and to begin to be able to love and trust eachother as we used to.

I am not writing this letter to make anyone dislike my W. Nor am I writing this to make her out to be a bad person. She is a very good person who is simply making a bad choice that will do much harm to herself and those around her, such as our families and our children.

I want to save our marriage. I want to us fix the problems that we have had, and move forward to create and even better marriage. One that will survive any problem that may arise and make us and our family so much happier. However, this *cannot* happen as long as her affair with the OM continues.

I am hoping that my W will reflect on our marriage, family, and the good times we have had together, and decide to end her affair with the OM, and give our marriage another chance. I promise to her that my changes I have made will endure, and I will continue forevermore to treat her with love, respect, kindness, honesty, friendship, understanding, and acceptance as I have always felt she's deserved.

Thank you,
the BS

Well that's it. I'm sure it could use some tweaking. Perhaps there some things I shouldn't mention, and others I should put in. Let me know. I was also thinking of including the chatlog file that I have as proof in case she tries to deny it, but I'm wondering if that might be overkill?

Had some more developments in my sitch...
First off, had a talk with our oldest son about a week ago, who had been staying with his aunt in another town for the last month or so. He returned to the city where his mother was recently since he'll soon be coming back to the US. Anyway, as a result, he had no idea that anything was happening between her and the OM until now. He discovered it by seeing her and the OM chatting and exchanging ILY and all that. He comes right out and says,'Hey, that's not right, mom! You can't have 2 boyfriends!' (Yay, son!) She replies with,'It's ok, because I'm not going to be with [Nobody9] anymore.' When he told me this he was very upset and crying. He said he was praying that we'd get back together, and that he's sad about what's happening, because he thought we'd always be together...Made me so sad to hear him like that. I told him that I loved his mom very much, but she was doing something which was hurting me very much, and that she should not be doing. I also told him that I wasn't giving up on our family and that I loved them all. That I was going to keep trying and hoping that his mom would change her mind.

After that I had my appt. with MB. Went well, mostly went into discussion of the situation, and suggested staying in Plan A (keep it light and friendly and wait for the A to die a natural death) for now, and being ready for a wider, repeated exposure in the event of Plan B (which will probably happen a few weeks after she comes home as ACTdontreact suggested) depending on whether she starts changing her attitude. Gave some thoughts on getting some of the MB material in her hands as a way of sowing the seeds for the future. Need to get those books!

Discussions with the WW have been fairly routine throughout the week. Chatting, joking about stuff, talking about the kids costumes, etc. Nothing too heavy.
Anyway, today she was busy so I was going to let her go, so quick I asked how the kids were, and she said they were fine.

I asked if our eldest was ok, and she said he's fine too.
I said, 'oh, ok...he was pretty sad the last time I spoke to him.'
'About what?'
'About us.'
'Well, he doesn't have anything to worry about, don't worry'
'Uh, yes he does. He's worried about losing his family.'
'Well, he was fine when I left his father.'
'No not really, they (especially him) were sad and very insecure, but they understood also that you had left because he (her X) had hit you and were upset with *him* for it.'

Some highlights of the conversation:
-'He's not losing his family!' to which I responded that he knows that I won't be there anymore, and that what he considers his family is her, me, him, his brother and his sister.
-'They're not learning anything wrong!' when I said that I also worried about what they were learning from our situation. I replied, "So it's ok that they learn that they should just look outside the marriage if there's a problem?" ('If they aren't happy with their partner...'), "and it's ok that they tell lies to their partner?" ('I'm not telling lies!'). "I've been told many lies over the past few months" (Sorry.)
-"Truth is, this is going to affect them badly, and you are hurting them, me, and our families with what you are doing." ('I'm not hurting anyone!') Oops! I rephrased it, "I am hurt, our children are hurt, and our families are hurt by what is happening." ('I'm sorry.') "Well, words can't change anything, only actions can."

She said that there's nothing to think about, that we are "going to be separated" I thought, 'going to be? I thought according to her we already were...and if it hasn't yet, when (and why, if she's so sure)?' I told her flat out that I wasn't accepting of that. That I loved her and our family, and that I was willing to do whatever it takes to make our marriage work.

She says she's "sorry" that the kids will feel hurt about the situation, but that's the way it is. This one really bothered me, and made me really see how *not* like my W she has been acting. This is like my bizarro-W (or other dimension evil-W for those Star Trek fans...she'd just need a goatee. Sorry, getting sidetracked). Her first thoughts are normally of the kids, whether they have everything they need or if they are happy....

I'm glad our eldest is going to be coming up here soon (maybe a week), and if I had any pull I'd have the others up here, too. Unfortunately, they aren't legally my children, so I have no legal say.

I have to say I'm really glad I've found this place...I've learned a lot and I spend a lot of time at my work reading and learning even more from others stories. I do have a long way to go and a *lot* more to learn. In a moment of frustration, in response to something she said I went and said something to the effect of "Is what you are looking for a divorce? What do you want?" She didn't respond at all. I really don't even know *why* I said it. I definitely *don't* want a divorce, and I *wasn't* offering. Maybe I was just frustrated by the ambiguity of the sitch and her attitude. You'd think though that the amount of times I'd heard people say *don't* bring up the D-word that I'd know better...

Also, if it seems like I'm reaching the end of my rope, or that I think that my W (in her true form) is a lost cause, thats not the case. Usually these posts are for me to kind of process the things that happened or were said and also allow me to vent and rant a little. Thanks for that! (I think I've said this before actually...)

Gave my WW a call last night, and was told that she'd taken a trip down to her parents place (with her niece and children) for a couple of days. This was a suprise, since she hasn't spoken to her mother since September (due to her knowing about the A). Kinda wondering what this might mean.
Could become a 'blood is thicker than water' situation (very likely, I never did plan on holding my breath on that one), or it could be a simple truce situation so that the grandparents can see the kids. Her mother did tell me (in an earlier conversation) that she felt strongly against what my WW is doing, for me and the children, but since she's her daughter, she'll love her regardless. *shrug* Like anything else there's nothing to do but wait.

Her mother was friendly with me, asking how I was and telling me to take good care of myself. My wife was friendly, but sounded a bit stressed. Maybe cool towards me due to our 'discussion', or uncomfortable around her mother (she was much the same the last time we saw her), or just frazzled from chasing the kids to take a bath. Again pure speculation.

Another interesting thing is that the niece who is close with my WW's mother (and was also giving my WW the evil eye) is now living in my SIL's house with us. She's always been close to my SIL and even has some influence with her. On top of that, the SIL from NY (the one who told my WW's mother about the A and advised my WW to think about what she's doing) will be coming out for a visit as well, so I'll finally be able to meet her in person.

I'll just have to wait and see what happens there. It's possible that her family might just be moving towards acceptance of what's happening. Which is an even greater possiblity if my WW can show them the kids and say 'See, they know and they're "OK".' (I have no way of being certain this is even what she is thinking, but I have a very active imagination...)

I hate being so far away and cut off from everyone.

N9

How ironic is that last line of my previous post...

Turns out I'll be heading down to see the wife and family there in a couple of weeks (to escort our eldest son back to the US), and now I'm feeling nervous and worried about it.

There are a couple of reasons for that. First of all, since we're so separated distance-wise, I've already gone through some sort of withdrawal process myself and am feeling a bit more stable. I'm not sure how being near her again is going to affect me...I'd really like to be able to take this chance to be able to do some good Plan A'ing to show her that she'd be losing something in me, and I hope I can keep myself under control. I just remember how it felt those final few days I was there last time, it was awful. Granted, these were the days following D-day and emotions were raw, so that's to be expected. But this will be the first time I'll have seen her, much less been around her for any length of time, for 3 months.

When we were talking about my going down there, and I mentioned staying for a week, she immediately started saying that it seemed like a long time, now she wasn't sure where I was going to stay, and that she didn't want us to be the same way we were before when I was there (always talking about the same thing..."we've already talked about it, there's nothing more to say" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />). I'm really not going to try to analyze that too much, but it came out so fast and so far out of left field that it surprised me. The fact of my sleeping in a different room hurt, but I shouldn't be surprised I guess. The talking about the "same thing over and over again" thing, I said that I didn't even know why she brought it up, since I didn't even mention it, though sometimes people need to ask questions and talk about the things that affect them so strongly, especially so soon after the fact. I just left it at that. I told her that if she felt uncomfortable with me being there, to let me know (knowing that this was the case, just wanting her to admit it). She said that it wasn't that, that she was worried for me because of how I felt the last time. She didn't want to hurt me again (L-O-L) <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />. Anyway, she later said that if I wanted to go down there for a week, it was fine. It was just that she had said that she needed time, and she didn't want to feel pressured. That it seemed too soon...that it wasn't time yet. (Pure babble I know....is cake-eating so doesn't want to make a choice yet, doesn't want me to talk about the situation because she doesn't want to feel bad, etc.)

Other than that, our convo was fairly normal, joking about stuff, talking about the kids, etc. The only other thing of note was when she mentioned that she didn't feel good and her head hurt, and I said that I knew. She says how do you know. I replied that I could hear it in her voice, I just knew her. She quietly replies,'no you really don't know me...'. I said that I really did, I could tell when she was tired, happy, sad, sick, angry...She says, really? you can..? How do I feel now then? Me: Well, tired, and a bit bothered (obvious from her earlier statements about me going there)... Her: Mmmm...yeah. Me:...and a bit sad. She admitted that yes she had been feeling that way lately. It's difficult being down there without money, unable to do anything, that sometimes she starts feeling depressed. She just wants to leave there. I told her that if she feels sad about something, sometimes it helped to talk about it, and that I was there for her if she needed it. So she started talking about some of the issues she'd been having with family members and stuff like that.


It is nice when she starts to open up a little, though I am aware that for every thing that she does tell me, there are probably a score of other things she doesn't, or that the things she does tell me are somewhat skewed.

Anyway, I think I'll break this up into 2 posts, to follow with how I"m feeling lately. This to avoid creating an overly large post (Oops, too late!) that makes someone's head explode <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/eek.gif" alt="" />, and also to minimize the risk of the net "eating" my post and having to rewrite it... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

9

I am still watching and reading your thread. I am glad you will have the opportunity to see her.

I wish others would chime in on how you should behave. Yes you are to Plan A but Plan A includes the carrot and the stick. Your wife is so resistant to the stick and you only have two weeks visiting to get her thinking. Though she is in contact with OM by email, IM and phone their relationship is likely strained by the distance and lack of contact. You may have the opportunity to win her heart back however being to nice just plays into the fantasy wherein she gets to keep you as a friend and you'll just go along with the divorce and be her bud. You can not be accepting of her infidelity but you can not bash to hard lest you fail to attract her back to the marriage. I do not envy this difficult tightrope you must walk.

Have you discovered much more about OM? Do you know anything about who he is and what are his insecurites? What do you have to offer that he doesn't? Do the kids like him? Are you inbedded with the kids to such an extent that they will support you? If so, can you talk with the older ones and once they know your side of the story will they pressure mom? P47D just exposed to his kids and Dr. Harley advised him to ask the kids the simple question...When is it O.K. to have an affair...when is it right?. Now P47D kids are hammering his wife with the same quote. Maybe even her family members will be supportive of you once they see how strong, loving and considerate you are towards wife on this trip...they likely have gotten a revisionist history of your marriage that you can disprove a little on this trip by being a wonderful husband and father in front of them...despite the circumstances.

I'm kinda rambling myself.

Good luck,
Mr. Wondering

To continue...

In the midst of all this, I've discovered that one of my highest ENs apart from affection (which was always obvious to me) is honesty. I didn't realize how important it was for me to get this from my WW, until she stopped. And it's been all the lies that I've discovered that have triggered me the most, even more than the SF (I recall seeing an interesting discussion about which was worse a couple of weeks ago - IMO, it depends on the ENs of the BS).

I must admit, that thinking about the fact that she's still lying to me makes me not even *want* to talk to her at times. I know it's to be expected, but still...if I see she comes online and I don't feel ready or ok, I'll just ignore it and go take a shower or go out to the store. Then if she's still on when I get back or out, then I'll start chatting. When I go down there though, I won't have any choice other than be around her, or be sitting in a room doing nothing. Maybe I'm just worrying myself for nothing, but I really feel scared. I want very much to be with my W again, I miss her so much...I just don't like dealing with the person she is right now.

On the other hand, this will be a great chance to see the kids, and also be able to put some physical influence in with my WW (physical, as in, "being there"), which might be good. I'm going to keep this stay shortish, mon-thurs as opposed to a full week...I'd like to get as much time there as possible, but I'm not sure how I'm going to feel when I get there. I just hope I don't regret not making my stay longer. Man, I'm so uncertain right now...