Well, that would be fun to watch - exploding ants. Can you feed some instant grits to OW? Now, now...I'm being naughty. LOL!

She's a loser. Why is he being so stupid? Trust me, someday he will ask himself that question and be so embarrassed about this... I'm attaching another email that explained a lot to me that I read on the Recovery board yesterday on a thread about whether Satan steals their souls during A...

Keep posting, you are in our prayers.

NTL

You might want to go look at the entire thread - it was very interesting...
but here's the excerpt I liked:

Read what Frank Pittman says about 'romantic infidelity'


Quote:
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ROMANTIC INFIDELITY

Surely the craziest and most destructive form of infidelity is the temporary insanity of falling in love. You do this, not when you meet somebody wonderful (wonderful people don't screw around with married people) but when you are going through a crisis in your own life, can't continuing living your life, and aren't quite ready for suicide yet. An affair with someone grossly inappropriate-someone decades younger or older, someone dependent or dominating, someone with problems even bigger than your own-is so crazily stimulating that it's like a drug that can lift you out of your depression and enable you to feel things again. Of course, between moments of ecstasy, you are more depressed, increasingly alone and alienated in your life, and increasingly hooked on the affair partner. Ideal romance partners are damsels or "dumsels" in distress, people without a life but with a lot of problems, people with bad reality testing and little concern with understanding reality better.

Romantic affairs lead to a great many divorces, suicides, homicides, heart attacks, and strokes, but not to very many successful remarriages. No matter how many sacrifices you make to keep the love alive, no matter how many sacrifices your family and children make for this crazy relationship, it will gradually burn itself out when there is nothing more to sacrifice to it. Then you must face not only the wreckage of several lives, but the original depression from which the affair was an insane flight into escape.

People are most likely to get into these romantic affairs at the turning points of life: when their parents die or their children grow up; when they suffer health crises or are under pressure to give up an addiction; when they achieve an unexpected level of job success or job failure; or when their first child is born-any situation in which they must face a lot of reality and grow up. The better the marriage, the saner and more sensible the spouse, the more alienated the romantic is likely to feel. Romantic affairs happen in good marriages even more often than in bad ones.

Both genders seem equally capable of falling into the temporary insanity of romantic affairs, though women are more likely to reframe anything they do as having been done for love. Women in love are far more aware of what they are doing and what the dangers might be. Men in love can be extraordinarily incautious and willing to give up every-thing. Men in love lose their heads-at least for a while.


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That is very interesting. If you think about it, H has two of the life-changing situations going on right now... he just graduated college in May and finally has a successful job in his field, plus, there's DD. Maybe I'm TOO sane and sensible? Unfortunately, your post doesn't make me feel any better.

I will try to find that thread and check it out. Thanks!

The thread was started by Innocence_Lost if you are searching for it in the Recovery board. I thought it was interesting.

Maybe the article doesn't make you feel better, but some day when you can know that you weren't crazy, your M wasn't "bad", and he was being "extraordinarily incautious and willing to give up everything" and that this is textbook it may make you feel better.

It should at least make you feel better to know that it's a textbook situation, and the textbook says WH usually come home to their BW.

NTL

Maybe so...

Now for something completely unrelated, I feel like I've got something ELSE to worry about. A few weeks before H dropped the bomb, he drove 12 hours out of state to bring my brother home. (B had moved back to our home state after our dad died in Jan '04). He has always had some issues. Was into drugs and drinking when he lived here before, but while he was out of state, proved to himself that he could work hard. B is soon to be 25 and is now living with my other B, 21. B25 hasn't found a job yet, has no transportation (no drivers license), no prospects for work, few friends and is starting to feel hopeless. Big problem when he feels hopeless, b/c he gets clinically depressed and self destructive. I feel like there's nothing I can do. They live about an hour away. Being the older sister, I can't help but worry even though he told me it's not my problem. B21 is barely making it paycheck to paycheck himself. I've got plenty of my own troubles to worry about, but I don't want the Bs to end up homeless, you know? Just venting.

That's hard. I'm sorry to hear about that. There isn't probably much you can do but be moral support. Has he given up the partying? At 25, probably not yet. Living with a 21 year old probably doesn't help that - is your younger brother a partier?

Any chance of him getting a job where B21 works and driving together? Otherwise about all he can do is apply to every single employer within walking/biking/bussing distance from his housing. Temp services? Can be a foot in the door...

Just some ideas - you do have plenty of your own troubles to worry about, but I know you can't help but wonder about your B's. You know, sometimes all you can do is pray.

"The earnest prayer of a righteous person has great power and a wonderful result." James 5:16

NTL

He claims that he's given it up, although I know he was smoking pot while he was out of state. I happened to see a bottle of that stuff that supposedly helps you pass a drug screening in one of his boxes of stuff. Certainly he can't afford it now. B21 is more of a loner than a partier, so maybe he HAS given it up.

He claims he's been everywhere within walking distance with no luck, and he's put in an application at B21's work, too, a grocery store the next town over. I'm thinking B21 doesn't really want him working there, though, b/c he hasn't talked to the manager yet like he said he would, and that was over a week ago. B25 says he's going stircrazy. All his old friends are either in jail or have moved away. Probably a good thing, but he's lonely. Lonely and hopeless don't mix well with a recovering alcoholic.

I'm praying every day.

Eww... about all you can do is pray right now.

How are you doing otherwise today?

NTL

Other than that... not so great, NTL. Had IC today. Nothing too ground-breaking there. H came over this evening to see DD, 40 minutes late, I might add.

I'm really starting to worry about finances. He's putting money into the joint account to help cover the bills, but it's not enough. When I told him that, he said we would meet for lunch Thursday to talk about it. Why he couldn't just talk about it with me tonight, I don't know. But at least that gives me a little time to do some research, I guess, to make sure I know EXACTLY what DD and I need to stay afloat.

Sorry to hear that... how is your counselor? Helpful at least? Pro-marriage? Does he/she seem to have a good handle on the mechanics of A's? I ask because my IC was supportive, encouraging, helpful, and caring - but didn't really seem to have much experience in adultery now that I look back. Not compared to MBers.

Anyway, yes, getting a good working budget together is important. I itemized every potential expense, right down to $30 for Halloween costumes, $ for Christmas, Easter, Birthdays, etc, school stuff, professional photos, all the things that you are REALLY going to plan to do. You need to budget it all in - leave as little room for surprises and unexpected expenses as possible. If there are extras (like hi-def tv, Platinum cable channels, cell phones contracts, etc etc) it is time to trim them. See what he says when you talk about money at lunch... just lay out the realistic plan of what you need for you and DD to stay afloat. But don't just look at this month, look thru the holidays when you are jointly agreeing on a fair amount.

And you know what? Even when we reconciled, all that detailed budget work wasn't lost... it has become the foundation of our cash-only envelope Dave Ramsey-style budget and debt elimination system. It was a helpful exercise. We had budgets before, but nothing this detailed and realistic.

Also, this was the point for me where I had to surrender some things. I NEVER thought we would move, but I had to get really comfortable with the idea. I just couldn't afford this house on my own, and it was about twice the floorspace that me and my 2 DD's needed, plus a yard requiring year-round care. Now, fortunately we reconciled before it came down to selling the house which our DDs love and consider home of course, but I had already called the mortgage company and gotten quotes on getting everything refinanced in my name only. I needed to know if I could afford it or not. I thought a lot about moving to a 2 bdrm condo or something like that if we divorced.

That made my WH really sad to think about, and he kept promising me that DDs wouldn't have to move. But I knew that if my future plans were based on his good intentions and OW's good will that I was probably not being realistic. That proved all too true as things wore on.

Anyway, just be realistic with him. And if there are major sacrifices that you and DD are going to have to make because of all this (i.e. selling a home, furniture, big screen tv, SUV, etc etc etc) just tell him so! He isn't living in reality, but you NEED to be. He won't want to see or think that his actions (!) are leading to sacrifices for you and DD probably; he will try to justify that you can "probably still afford the blahblahblah" if he gives you $X, but if you know you can't - sell it, cancel it, whatever. You can always buy a new blahblahblah later or sign up for fancy-fancy service again later.

What do you think he will suggest - where do you think you can trim expenses if the separation goes on for 6 months?

HUGS to you,

NTL

Thanks for the advice, NTL. I won't be able to keep the house if the D goes through, and H knows it. I've already looked into refinancing the mortgage, and it's out of my price range. H suggested us splitting the refi (me do the 80% loan, H do the 20% loan), but if this goes through like it seems like it will, I don't want H having any stake in where DD and I live.

I've told him that I want to live in the house as a family, and he says, "That means you and DD." I say, "It doesn't have to be that way." He says, "Yes it does." I'm hoping to make him wait a while longer before even discussing D stuff, but we need to sit down and work out finances for right now being separated, especially b/c H has found an apartment that he'll be taking in a couple weeks.

It'd be easier to cut down services if we were more extravagent to begin with. About the only luxury we have is DSL. Otherwise, it's just basic cable, basic home phone/basic cell phones. I'm ticked about this whole thing, b/c he can just work overtime to get more cash if he needs it, and I'm on a fixed income as a government employee. I guess I need to look into something to do on the side?

I had briefly considered renting out a room/part of the house to a college girl or something... some of my friends have kids ready to leave the nest but going to local colleges... I don't know, I was just brainstorming at the time.

Or getting set up to babysit professionally for a 2nd or 3rd shift employee? Just trying to "think outside the box"...

You know, one thought... reverse psychology is an important concept in the separation period. When he says things like "That means you and DD." I wouldn't argue the point. There is an interesting guy, he isn't Christian and I got "convinced" to order/download his e-book which I got a full refund on... but he had some really effective and interesting things to say that might benefit you. They were very helpful to me. I would say, don't feel that you need to buy the book (even though that's what they want you to do) but the website is http://www.stopyourdivorce.com - I really would take a look at the home page tonight and let me know what you think. I was surprised at how effective some of the "go with the flow" technique is!

NTL

thanks for that link NTL.

I am dealing with a big ole narcissist WH and that was just what I needed to read.

But you say the book is not worth it?

Thanks, NTL. I actually looked at that website before I found marriage builders or divorce busting. Reverse psychology... so hard to go against your instincts, but that's why we're all here, right?

My mom suggested renting out a room, since we live in a college town. However, since we're going to end up selling the house, I don't know if that's a good idea. Plus, I'm a little worried about DD's safety, bringing a stranger into the house. If B24 could get his act together, I'd let him move in, but there's no way I can support the three of us! I'm going to look into finding cheaper childcare. I'm paying over $500/month for the place DD goes now! I've got some stuff I need to get rid of (hello, ebay!), and I'm also going to look into some freelance writing. You may not be able to tell from my disjointed posts on here, but that's basically what I do for a living.

Those are some good ideas SadMommy... if you do bring in a college kid, you would just want to make it a girl I think... but I know, I had the same debates with my older DD's safety. Freelance $ would be great, I can tell you are a good writer

So you looked at the website before?? Interesting... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Jean 36 - as far as the book not being worth it - I don't mean to say that I guess - there certainly are things in there that are I'm sure. Of course the "3 sentences" or whatever go something like "You are right. I agree. I could never trust you again." or something like that. Jujitsu, as he says.

The reason I didn't like the book, is he quite mis-quoted Jesus a few times. Also, he specifically advised getting a boyfriend/girlfriend to make the WS jealous. Of course it WORKS, but you are using an innocent person, threatening cheating yourself, endangering yourself of getting into an A, and Dobson, MB, the Bible and my conscience all advise against it. A very dangerous and stupid recommendation I think, to openly start dating.

Now, to imply to your WS that once the M is over and you give yourself some time to heal (Dobson says 2 years, Dr. Laura says until your youngest turns 18), you will start dating, and though you "always intended to stay single if anything happened to you, after being alone I think I realize that I am meant to be married. And now I am older and would know more... etc" Now, THAT I personally think is okay. Because THAT is reality that the WS needs to deal with - not only are they finding a new partner, but you will too!

It's not that the book is useless at all, it just had some ideas in it that I didn't agree with, and for $50, I thought the main points were made on his homepage... IMHO.

NTL

What do I do? H has been making counter deposits into the joint account instead of just transferring it from his checking. I'm thinking there's something I may not know about here, like maybe he's got an account somewhere else that he doesn't want me to know about. I'm really scared. Please advise!!

I'm sorry but I have not been keeping up with your situation.

Have you consulted an attorney?

It's essential that you do so in order to protect yourself and your kids.

Your H is not himself right now. His main goal is to take care of himself. Standard MO for the WS. My FWH did the EXACT same thing...

He is trying to hide money from you...that's for sure....

Sorry that this is happening to you....

BTW, keep snooping. Don't let him know that you are on to him or he will become even more secretive. He is in the wrong for doing this. You are not in the wrong for what you are doing. He is married to you. You are entitled to at least half of the money.

Hi, I haven't posted to you in a little while, but I've been following.

I agree w/ Mimi, do not let on that you know. This way you can keep track of how much he has hidden in that account. Ultimately, it will be a shared asset and you will get half of it.

Definitely let your lawyer know about it w/ the account number so that he/she can do discovery appropriately at a later date.

It will be hard keeping the secret, but DO IT.

HardHead and Mimi are right.

Call the phone number daily and keep a journal of the balances. Although you can get the info anyway in discovery, if you've got a log of it you can figure out what he is putting in and taking out without discovery. Your attorney would then have the opportunity to ignore "discovering it" and maybe your husband will attempt to lie his way through the process. Your attorney may believe it to be more effective for this lie to occur in open court and on paper as opposed to just on paper in discovery. If he lies to the court...he loses complete credibility...you can basically get whatever you want.

As Mimi and Hardhead advised already, do not let on that you have this information. Protect yourself.

Mr. Wondering

I actually don't have the account number to the "secret" account. I don't really know how to check or even if that's legal. When you're struggling to figure out how to stretch every penny so you and DD will be able to eat and have electricity and H isn't paying rent at OW's house, this seems like a big deal.