Thanks, GG. I'm trying to do that. Going to IC, talking to friends A LOT, playing guitar, writing, and crying when I need to. I'm still reeling from all this, but I'm also trying to work on a plan to protect us both financially. I've never had to budget stuff before b/c H did all the finances.

DD makes it both easier and harder. Easier, b/c I always have something to do and it's hard not to smile/laugh at her antics. Harder b/c I mourn for how complicated her life will be. It's looking like poor little DD won't even have ONE Christmas or one birthday with her parents together.

H is being really short-sighted and not thinking things through very well when he says things like, "This will make me a better father." "DD and I will have a better relationship b/c DD will appreciate me being happy instead of unhappy." Smokin' da crack. Whatever. If he doesn't come around, it's his loss, right?

SadMommy, I am not too good at moving thread links, but if you hit the orange "Search" field and type in Mr_STOWaway, it will take you to the thread from Feb.05 entitled "My wife filed for divorce...and probably should have (long)" or something like that - that was our first MB posting... I enter into the fray a little bit down the line...

You are doing great, I'm glad you liked the Psalm. I love them, they were and are so helpful to me.

IF he didn't come around, it WOULD be his loss, but do not give up hope, I haven't!!

NTL

So, I got my reading. I gave her our names and birthdates and said he left the day before labor day. And I asked her two questions. Here it is:

*************
Sooooo when I received this and already knowing something, yes I'd say your suspicions are right but I don't think you know everything....There could be others in that I can feel he is really enjoying his freedom and I just don't see him wanting to settle down with one again, at least for now....

****************************************************************************
1. Has my husband been unfaithful to me, either physically or emotionally?*****Oh my I sure do hate to do readings like this...but I find that I have to...Yes hon I feel he has been unfaithful both emotionally and physically...And I feel this started before he left....and it got complicated and he left...Now I have to add this addendum...he wasn't in love and still isn't...he just likes the life he is building for himself as a free man......He likes not having the responsibility of having to be a good married man and father...He likes his freedom......

He used the excuse to himself that it was you and the situation and he wasn't at fault, but that just means that he had already left in his heart before the door closed behind him...even while he was still living with you...

I feel he is a weak guy and can't look away when a girl walks by...some guys look naturally and then look away and don't have any more thoughts of them, but I feel he continues to keep the thought inside...so this is being
unfaithful without even doing anything...it is in him, understand, hon...???

****************************************************************************
********
2. Is our marriage really over, or will he come back home to be a family with our baby and me?******I feel for your sake and that of your family, yes it should be...I don't see him changing and look what he has already put you through...Can that ever be totally forgotten...no, it will eat at you even
if he comes back...And it has gone beyond his choice at this point...he made his choice to leave and so when you get your heart and soul back into shape again, you'll realize he gave up more choices in the relationship...he left...

And so yes I feel eventually, at some point in time, you will make up your mind that you are tired of hurting and you will take action so that he can never do that to you or your child again.....But this is going to take some time...you are totally destroyed at this time..you are still in love and would get on your knees and beg him...But don't...Give yourself a chance at gaining your pride again and then make some decisions...especially when you can think straight.....

It will work out for the best eventually...but give yourself time to be open and honest to yourself...He isn't in the picture...you have to think of what is best for you and your baby...and you having someone who can come and go and hurt the mother all the time, isn't good for the baby, no matter how much you might want to believe it can work out...

Hon even if he comes back, then that places him in a totally up position..he will think he did you a favor...And then he can continue to do just what he wants to do...And that isn't a marriage....

****************************************************************************
*********************Hope this helps you hon...anytime I can ever help again, please don't hesitate...I was very happy to help...

Also I invite you to write to me anytime and let me know how you are getting along...I answer all my emails...

So till all is as it should be in your pathway, I'll be wrapping you in my Angel wings...

Thanks and hugs, ^i^

****************************************************************************
********

So what do you guys think about this??? I can see it. Some of the things she said are what he said... Like that part about closing the door. He even told me one night that the doors to his heart were closed. Spooky.

I think she just knows the dynamics of A's, that's all. She isn't a psychic. This stuff is textbook and she knows how to give textbook advice and make money doing it, that's all. Everyone uses the same phrases about closing doors, hard heart etc etc, if she throws enough opinions out there and statements like that, something will stick and seem "spooky."

I think her advice about giving up on your M to regain your pride so that he doesn't have the upper hand is sinful and wrong. Nothing will make you feel better about yourself as a woman, wife, mother, and Child of God than humbling yourself to save your marriage & family.

I would counsel you not to take marriage advice from people who are not in Christ.

I feel strongly about that.

Love & hugs to you today, SadMommy,
NTL

Thanks, NTL. It wasn't very much money, and I figured why not? I don't put a lot of stock into those sorts of things myself. More curiousity than anything else.

In other news, I spoke with our mutual friend who lives out of state last night. We're friends from college. He was in one of my classes and lived in the dorm with H. He was a groomsman in our wedding. I had called him several weeks ago to talk to him about the sitch. Guy loves us both and is very shocked and sad about it. H called him the other night to talk. Guy called me last night to tell me what H said.

Guy says that H didn't go into detail but told him it was "just a bunch of little things that added up," that he felt I ignored him. Also said H knows how bad it looks that he went to OW's house the night he left. Guy says H told him he didn't think things through very well but the night he left, he felt he had to leave and didn't have any money to go anywhere else. Which makes sense, since I've found out he had the credit card maxed out. As a guy himself, Guy said he doesn't necessarily believe H when H says there's nothing going on with OW. He has been around them and thought their friendship was a little odd himself. Plus, we both know that H values his "good guy" image very highly and that he's not going to admit anything to anybody.

Guy says he kept asking H if he felt like there was anything that could turn things around, and H said no. H told him (w/out Guy asking) that he will not try to take DD away from me, but that I should prepare myself b/c H definitely intends to follow through on the big D. Guy said he will call H tonight to talk some more, get more info, and try to talk to him about it further. He said their first conversation was similar to his first conversation with me... H wanted to talk so Guy listened.

I'm going to stick with Plan A but try to prepare emotionally and financially for the big D. I'm working on the financial part. Called the government last night and got a forbearance on my student loan so I can save that money instead.

Bear with me, I've got two big things going on in this post:

Feeling very lonely and sad right about now. H is coming in the morning with a friend to start moving stuff to his apartment. I just went through the dresser he's taking to get all my stuff out of it. We've been using it for storage in the guest room. In the bottom drawer, I found all these love letters I wrote to him when we were at different colleges, plus our wedding cake topper. He will probably just throw them in the trash. Then I went to get my stationary out of the desk he'll be taking and found our marriage license. Needless to say, I had to stop. Couldn't do any more. If it wasn't so late, I'd call my mom. I have a friend coming over in the morning to make sure I stick to my Plan A guns and not cry or beg him to stay. It's really going to be hard. Funny how he always accuses me of trying to put people in an "awkward position" regarding our issues but he doesn't think it's putting this guy in an awkward position by asking him to help move things out while his wife and baby girl watch... and it's a guy he works with.

He did pick up DD early from daycare today to take her to see his family, but not as early as he said he would. He had told me 3:30 but didn't get there til 4. I left work early so I could get to my brothers' apartment by 6 to nurse DD when he brought her by, but traffic was bad so I was still running 10 minutes late. He called me when I was 20 minutes away, and I told him where I was. He said they were going to his parents' house (which is 20 minutes from B's apartment). I told him that he didn't have time to go there, that I would be there soon. He said OK. I called again when I was 5 minutes away, and guess where he was? At the ILs. I told him I would be at the apartment very shortly so he should get her ready to go. He snapped at me: "We will be leaving in 10 minutes b/c you are late," which means they'd be 30 minutes later than we planned. Sure enough, he brought her over at 6:30, half an hour later than we had agreed to. His excuse was that he wanted his sister to have a chance to visit DD, which is fine, but if he would have picked her up when he said he would have, he would have had time for that. He must have felt bad about snapping at me, b/c he brought her back to the apartment 10 minutes early and thanked me for letting him take her to the party.

I know 30 minutes doesn't seem like a big deal in the greater scheme of things, but I was worried about my baby being hungry. She hadn't had any milk in 4 hours. And then when he returned her for the night, he hadn't even fed her the jar of food I had packed. He said she had been fussy and chewing on her hands and thought it was teething. No, that's her hunger sign!

I'm worried that this evening is a predictor of the future... is he always going to be a jerk about things like this? I feel like he has to exert complete control, and when things don't go completely his way, he gets really angry and grouchy.

And how can I trust that he will take good care of her when she's with him if he won't even feed her dinner?

Hey SadMommy, it's me...long story about an email account and a STOW and blech.
Anyway, I've had quite a day today and have to get to bed, but I wanted to just say keep those love letters yourself, the cake topper, don't do anything crazy with the marriage license or wedding pictures etc. When things work out, and I do mean WHEN (hopeful us, right?), you will be glad you have it all still. Don't give the Fogman an opportunity to throw that stuff away unless he out & out asks for it, which he won't.

I'll talk to you more tomorrow, gotta hit the hay.

(((((((((((((((((SadMommy))))))))))))))))))

NTL, you know...Mrs. Stowaway

Hi, NTL. I didn't do anything with that stuff. I left the love letters in the drawer, and I don't think he opened the drawers to check. He left the cake topper and the stuff from the desk on the floor when he came this morning.

H came with his co-worker friend this a.m. to get his furniture. He walked in and said hi to DD. DIdn't pick her up or anything. When H was in the front bedroom starting to gather stuff up, I asked the co-worker friend (who was still outside) how he could support this, a man leaving his wife and baby. He said softly, "I don't." Then just looked at me like he didn't know what else to say.

H didn't say one word to me, just started loading stuff up. I got very upset, much more so than I expected. I asked him how he could do this. He said he didn't want to talk to me. So I was sitting there in the living room, holding DD and crying. I couldn't help it. Neither he nor his friend said one word to us. Not. One. Word.

After they left with the first load of stuff, my neighbors got here, thank goodness. When H and his friend came back, we had a houseful. He said hi to everyone, and then they just kept on, acting like we weren't even here. My neighbors' 3-year-old daughter, who loves H, DD and me, asked her mommy what's going on in there? Neighbor said, "Mr. H is going to live in a different house." "But why?" she asked. "I don't know," neighbor replied.

He didn't say goodbye, not even to DD. I didn't know if they would be coming back. He called half an hour later to say that was all they were taking today, that he'd be back early tomorrow to see DD and load more stuff. I let the machine pick it up.

I am just so heartbroken and upset right now! I got more upset than I thought I would. I thought I'd be OK if I just kept myself busy while they were here, but it didn't help at all. I guess this just made everything seem that much more real.

I can just imagine what's going on at his apartment right now. I'm sure OW is there, helping him unpack his stuff. They're probably having a grand time.

Then he's got a wedding to go to this afternoon. It's at the same beautiful place that we got married at four years ago. He's a groomsman. I hope he feels like dogs**** standing up there with everyone staring at him, remembering our wedding. Who knows. Maybe standing there in the same place we married, listening to wedding vows will trigger something positive. I can only pray.

In an earlier post your H maintains that everyone at his office is supportive. The answer the co-worker gave you is proof that this is not so. Just some small confirmation that you should not put too much weight into what a WH or WW says.

Be strong and be brave. Your neighbors seem to support you. People are often willing to help but don’t want to meddle. Reach out for the support you need.

Oh, SadMommy, that is so hard. But you know what? This step is movement, it will propel things one way or another. If it's going to push him farther along in the A, then you can decide what to do then. If it's going to make him wake up and want to work on your M, then hallelujah! Look at it like at least it isn't inertia... it will bring change one way or another. I'm praying for positive change.

(((((((((((((((SadMommy))))))))))))))))

NTL

I'm trying to look at it that way, but it's hard to feel anything positive right now.

Bigger, thanks for your post. But if the friend doesn't support him, then why was he helping him? If it were me, I would have said no way.

You know, like bigger said, people feel really stuck in the middle. They are hearing all this baloney from the WS about the problems in the M, much of it exaggerated but they don't know that, and unless you have been thru an A and know this type of MB stuff, you just don't know what to say to someone. People try to "be supportive" to the people they care about, and they just don't know what to do, even if they think the person is insane.

My H had a lot of good friends when he was very wayward, and he sought their counsel often. They played it straight with him a lot of the time. Saying things like "Who would you more hate to see move on and remarry someone else, OW or your W?" and things to think about like that...

Did you read jaysmom thread on PlanA/PlanB - she reminds me of your sitch. It all feels so familiar. You just stay the course, and remember, if he DOES come back someday wanting to work on the M, you need to have a clear list in your mind of what your "demands" are for recovery. You should start thinking about that, I made a list for Jaysmom the other day, just things to think about.

SM. I once let a friend stay in my house for several days when he had marital problems. Although not an affair he had done some stupid things and I told him straight out he was to blame. I also made it clear that he would have to fix things with his wife and I would not listen to him badmouth her but that he was welcome to stay.

Sometimes you help friends. Even when you don’t agree with them. Maybe it’s an attempt by us to influence them positively.

You know, I just hope that guy went home in the afternoon, kissed and hugged his wife and made a promise to never be in your or your husbands shoes.

Eh, thei friend is a single guy, like most of H's co-workers. Bigger, I wish H had friends like you. Well, I know of at least one who's like that. The guy who lives out of state.

I'm wondering how the wedding went this evening... Maybe it was a way for God to tell H something, since it was at the same place we were married. If it is, I just hope H was listening and that maybe he's thinking about things right now. After all, he said it was going to his friends' wedding the weekend before he left that clinched his decision. He said he was tearing up listening to the vows b/c he felt like he didn't have that anymore. Maybe today had a positive impact, but probably not.

I'm sure he won't be staying at his new apartment tonight b/c he didn't take any of the bedding. Perhaps he'll be spending the night at his parents' house? I doubt it, but I can hope.

It's been a pretty quiet evening around here. I just got DD to bed. She slept in my arms for about half an hour while I watched the end of a movie. So peaceful, so innocent. Breaks my heart.

SadMommy,
I hope that going to the wedding did make something happen inside of him. Just remember, it's a process that goes on in the WS mind to bring them around. People planting those seeds of "maybe this A is mistake" and "what if SadMommy moves on and finds a new H someday, and DD has a step-dad?" and "I'll miss my best friend" and "this is immoral" and "people have lost respect for me" etc etc...especially since you said he cares so much about his reputation and how others see him.

We learned through all this that if you want to see the true character of a person, break up with them. I only wish that he was in a position to call it quits with OW so he could see how psycho she gets - it might really shine a light on some things for him that don't look so romantic.
[color:"purple"]
Isaiah 40:25-31
"To whom will you compare me?
Or who is my equal?" says the Holy One.

Lift your eyes and look to the heavens:
Who created all these?
He who brings out the starry host one by one,
and calls them each by name.
Because of his great power and mighty strength,
not one of them is missing.

Why do you say, O Jacob,
and complain, O Israel,
"My way is hidden from the LORD;
my cause is disregarded by my God"?

Do you not know?
Have you not heard?
The LORD is the everlasting God,
the Creator of the ends of the earth.
He will not grow tired or weary,
and his understanding no one can fathom.

He gives strength to the weary
and increases the power of the weak.

Even youths grow tired and weary,
and young men stumble and fall;

but those who hope in the LORD
will renew their strength.
They will soar on wings like eagles;
they will run and not grow weary,
they will walk and not be faint. [/color]

This is going to be a long post, I hope you don't mind.
The wedding didn't help. He said he felt weird being there again, but that was about it.

DD and I went to church with my neighbors. We usually go to the Lutheran Church just down the road, but they invited us to this contemporary non-denominational Christian church. They had a band with a string section, and the sermon was via satellite TV from the home church in another city. DD really liked the music. She danced in my lap the whole time. While I still prefer the more traditional service of the Lutheran church, the sermon really struck me.

It was about how everything is for the glory of God, even bad things, like illness, death and yes, divorce. They mentioned the story of Lazarus and Jesus and said that even though we can't understand why, everything happens for God's reasons. I've been praying for guidance every night since H left, and here's a sermon about our situation.

H came over this afternoon to see DD and take her to campus for a walk. She was just screaming bawling when he put her in his truck. I didn't want them to leave b/c it hurt me so much to see her crying like that. He promised to call me a few minutes down the road to show me that she is OK, and she was. He's going to want to take her to his apartment to spend time with her soon, and I don't know how I feel about that. It's going to be hard to let her go, even if it's just for a few hours. Tonight, he wanted to know what kind of formula I've been buying b/c he plans to stock up on stuff.

I know you are all trying to be encouraging by saying H will probably come back, but I just don't see it. Here's a good example: When H was putting DD in the truck, he went back in to get her diaper bag. I was out there with her and found his gripe list about me. He had typed it and printed it from a computer, if you can believe that. It was timeline of our entire relationship and all the reasons he was unhappy at every step of the way. Very painful to see. At the bottom he had written, "SadMommy is a good, responsible person overall, but the problems started before the wedding." The main problems he refers to are: me being clingy and "demanding of his time" (this was after a reunion after a break-up... he had cheated on me with a classmate and broke up with me a long time ago. It took a lot to get over that, but we did.It was especially tough b/c he went to college 4 hours away right after we got back together), me being an "obsessive planner" with our wedding (ha, he should see some of the women I've known. I was nowhere near Bridezilla!), me always having to have my way (sounds more like him. When things don't go his way, he's a total grouch). Why the he!! did he go through the trouble to type this, print it up and carry it around with him? That's so weird.

What really cut me deeply was what I found when I came up to the office to write on here. H had taken all of his books except one... a book I had made him for Valentine's Day in 1996. I spent weeks filling a journal with photos, love letters, poems and song lyrics. And. He. Left. It. Here. It's like he's erasing our entire history together. I'm sure he's dumped all the love letters, too. How could he be so callous? I feel like our entire relationship has been one big lie.

Oh, and he took the dog tonight. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Even though he's taken all his stuff, he refuses to give me his key because it's "his" house. I feel like I have no control over this situation at all, and it's driving me nuts. HELP! What can I do?

SadMommy, I am so so sorry that you found that list. I know that is even more painful then hearing it from him, that he took the time to type it out. But please believe me, his conscience is working overtime to justify this affair. He is only looking at the negative right now. The negative doesn't sound very bad to me.

The Plan A objective here would be for you to work on the issues that he is upset about, and show him over time that you have been thinking about these things (validation) and are willing to talk about them and that you have been learning some relationship tools here on MB that can make your M better, and fill each other's ENs.

I'm glad you had a good message at church today, that can really help.

Don't give up hope, SM. Tomorrow is a new day. Perhaps "moving on" in your mind IS what needs to happen, but I think it's too soon.

Don't do anything rash with the wedding stuff or the book you made him; my bet is some day he will treasure it and YOU as he once did. He is in the fog, take his train of thought with a grain of salt... really.

MSA/NTL <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Mrs. S... I'm not doing anything with that stuff, although someone told me I should throw the book into the fireplace b/c he has left me with that burden.

So now I have a good idea of what his gripes are, but to be honest, I feel like no amount of my Plan A-ing will do any good. I will keep trying, but I feel like I'm losing all my hope in the situation. Last night was really lonely without the dog. I actually forgot he was gone and even went to go let him inside before I went to bed. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I have taken off my wedding rings to see what it feels like. Just testing the waters right now. It hurts, but I think right now it's more painful to wear them, knowing that he doesn't care one bit about his vows. I went back and forth over whether I should continue wearing them or not, b/c I am still committed to the marriage. However, I feel like I'm punishing myself everytime I looked at them on my hand. I'm wearing my college ring instead today.

There was an interesting thread on GQ a couple weeks back about how long did you wear your wedding band... you could search my posts and find it if you wanted to read everyone's responses...it was all across the board as you can imagine.

My first thought (and I told WH at the time) the minute he left me (well, about a week into it) was that I was going to melt my rings down and make a pendant. Glad I held off on that.

If it is emotionally painful to wear them, I say take them off! I can only hope that someday you will place each other's rings back on in whatever ceremony (public or private) that you see fit. I did not take mine off until I filed for D, because I also felt committed to the M, but it's different for everyone. Also, there were my kids to consider, they were 5 & 10 at the time, and looking for every sign that things were going well or going not well. My 5 year old used to ask me what I was going to do with my wedding ring if "Daddy and you break up" - very very sad. I could tell by the way she played with it on my hand at bedtime that she was so so worried about us - she never noticed or cared about it before. To be honest, I think if it hadn't been for the kids I would have taken it off much sooner. It affected him when I removed it.

I can imagine it feels like the dog died or something... we get so used to having them around... what kind of dog is it? I would imagine you miss having the 'security' factor of a warning system dog too...? My dog is pretty useless for most of that protection, but he does bark. Usually. Unless he's asleep. Well, anyway...

Don't lose hope, but do remember that the MOST important relationship is NOT the one you have with your H, it is the one you have with God. God will not leave you, God will not forsake you, hurt you, betray you - you can place your complete and total trust in Him to take care of you.

[color:"purple"] Matthew 6:19-34

Treasures in Heaven
"Do not store up for yourselves treasures on earth, where moth and rust destroy, and where thieves break in and steal. But store up for yourselves treasures in heaven, where moth and rust do not destroy, and where thieves do not break in and steal. For where your treasure is, there your heart will be also.
"The eye is the lamp of the body. If your eyes are good, your whole body will be full of light. But if your eyes are bad, your whole body will be full of darkness. If then the light within you is darkness, how great is that darkness!

"No one can serve two masters. Either he will hate the one and love the other, or he will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and Money.

Do Not Worry
"Therefore I tell you, do not worry about your life, what you will eat or drink; or about your body, what you will wear. Is not life more important than food, and the body more important than clothes? Look at the birds of the air; they do not sow or reap or store away in barns, and yet your heavenly Father feeds them. Are you not much more valuable than they? Who of you by worrying can add a single hour to his life?
"And why do you worry about clothes? See how the lilies of the field grow. They do not labor or spin. Yet I tell you that not even Solomon in all his splendor was dressed like one of these. If that is how God clothes the grass of the field, which is here today and tomorrow is thrown into the fire, will he not much more clothe you, O you of little faith? So do not worry, saying, 'What shall we eat?' or 'What shall we drink?' or 'What shall we wear?' For the pagans run after all these things, and your heavenly Father knows that you need them. But seek first his kingdom and his righteousness, and all these things will be given to you as well. Therefore do not worry about tomorrow, for tomorrow will worry about itself. Each day has enough trouble of its own.
[/color]

MSA/NTL

Yep, I had seen that thread on the wedding rings and read it with a lot of interest. I think I posted there, too. It hurt so much when H took his off and carefully placed it on the very center of his dresser before walking out and going to OW's house that night. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" /> Felt like he was punishing me for something I didn't even know. When I told him later how much that hurt me, he said it was to prove a point that this IS going to happen. He's leaving me no room whatsoever for any hope.

The dog is a 90-lb behemoth. We don't even know what all he is, but he does have some mastiff in him. He's very sweet and very protective of DD. (Also a big fraidy-dog... he barks at EVERYTHING as he's running away from it: cars, visitors, deer, you name it!)