(((SM5)))

I know how that list must have hurt. Shortly after D-Day, my WH started his listing of all my character flaws. It was as if he was saying "Well, if I am going to have to stay in this M, here is all the stuff you are going to have to change". I think the thing that hurts the worst, is I can honestly say that he seemed dissapointed that I wanted to work through the A. I think he really wanted me to throw him out and make it easy on him.

As far a the list goes, WH gets very upset that I tell people that he left me for a MOW, he want to know why I don't tell him the whole story-as in give them the "list". My WH's list included my internet addiction, that I read strange books about religion and stuff, my choice of feminine products, and that the kitchen table is full of books (we homeschool and that is our class). OK, his list makes alot of sense to me.

I know IF we are to reconcile, I will have to listen to his real list, but right now, I just can't buy into any of his justifications.

I also know, as a FWW, it is very important to the WS to justify what you are doing. Please don't take the list personally. Look at it, see if there is anything about it that you don't like and address it for yourself. If your WS ever gets his foggy brain cleared, then you can get his list, which I am sure will look different.

Disclaimer: I am a MB flunkie, WH is filing for D, so take my advice with a grain of salt.

Hi, Jean. I saw your post on the divorced/divorcing forum also, and I have the same question myself for Georgia. I was told that there is a tactical advantage to filing first b/c you get to tell your side of the story first. However, I was also told that adultery is so common, judges and juries don't really care about it. That just shows the sad state of society these days, imho.

I've thought about beating him to the punch and filing, but I don't want a divorce, and I don't want to make it easy for him to walk away from us. If he wants it, he's going to have file it himself, and I will fight for our family every step of the way. I may end up having to go for LS, though, if we keep bickering over visitation and money. Someone I know said that's a good idea b/c it takes the "weapons" off the table. However, I'm not crazy about that either, b/c to me, it just brings us that much closer to D.

I'm trying to see things the way you suggest, that the list is just the fog and he's trying to justify what he knows in his heart is wrong. Still hurts, though.

H had DD alone at his apartment for the first time tonight. It was only 45 minutes while I went grocery shopping, but it was still hard to leave her there.

Q about visitation type stuff... H has been coming every other day to see DD, usually around 6:30 or 7, and bedtime is 8 or 8:30. He plans to see her again Thursday but wants to pick her up and take her to his place. I have a problem with her being shuffled around every other night during the week. It probably wouldn't be a big deal if he were to pick her up at an earlier time, but since it's only an hour before bedtime, I think it's just too much for a little baby. I told him he could see her at our house during the week and take her to his place when he sees her during the weekend, but I don't know how receptive he is to that. I told him I feel like he is trying to run the show completely. He gets bent out of shape anytime I even slightly disagree with what he wants to do. I told him that I'm her mother, and I need to have some say so in the situation as well. I explained my reasoning. He just said we'll talk about it later.

At his apartment, he had this book, "Mom's House, Dad's House." Have any of you read this? I had checked it out at the library a few weeks ago b/c he had said the lawyer he spoke with recommended it. I was too upset to read much of it, but I flipped through it. I don't see it as very realistic and can't see how not having one steady home base would be good for a child. Any thoughts, if any of you have heard of this book?

It might be time for you to consult with an attorney. I was told by people that the crazy type of baby-shuffling arrangement he wants to do is not in the best interest of the child, stability-wise. I would imagine that this is disruptive to all concerned, not good for DD right now.
I think it is more customary to have her from like 4-8pm every Wednesday, and E/O weekend...? The Friend of the Court allowed us to work out our own arrangements as long as it was agreeable to us both.
He probably won't stick to this plan for too long, it's not to practical, so I would be careful about making a big deal about it (i.e. fight) just yet.

The book I hadn't read; it is geared for very young children? Isn't your DD 10 mos old? Mr. Rogers had a book I bought about divorce. Never read it to the kids thank goodness, it was very sad. In general I do think books explaining the situation are well-done and a good idea, she just seems so young to understand any of what is going on...

Of course one steady home base is best for the child... but the next best thing is two steady home bases. If the parents can't work things out, (and of course you know I'm Mrs. Hopeful about this!!!) then creating a homey environment for DD at both places is important. And this really can be done. My mom has watched my girls for 10 years while I work. They are as "at home" there as they are here, except at bedtime because they aren't used to that. That would be what you and your H are shooting for I think. Oh, what do I know, we barely dealt with any of this... I just have a feeling that your H won't want to keep this crazy arrangement.

Sorry about the dog, I hope he brings your H home soon...

NTL/MSA

I don't know... he's stuck to it pretty well since he moved out. In the "divorce agreement" he typed up, he said he wanted visitation every other day, and that's how it has fallen so far, but it's been in DD's home. I really feel like this is NOT in her best interest but is in HIS best interest to keep power over the situation. She is not property to be divided, she is a child!

The book is for grown-ups, and it's all touchy-feely. I will visit the library today to check it out again. I find it very odd that H will devour a book like this but wouldn't even glance at the parenting books I was reading and asked him to read with me when I was pregnant and when DD was a newborn.

Perhaps HE would be interested to read Judith Wallerstein's book on the 25 year effects of divorce on children. I would like to see him read that book and still try to justify what he is doing to DD!!!!! If he is so interested in reading books about parents separating, I recommend that one!

If he pushes things too far with the parenting time, you can always file LS and go to see an advocate/Friend of the Court, whatever the system in place is in GA... to hopefully set up better more fair and reasonable arrangements.

I would still encourage careful Plan A.

NTL/MSA

I have mentioned to him that book you're talking about before, along with a study that was done a couple years back about how divorce doesn't make unhappy people any happier. His reponse? "I don't care about books or studies. I get my information from real people I talk to." And the real people he talks to? His uncle, who stayed married when he didn't want to for the sake of the kids and just remarried this past weekend, a guy at his old job who has been married 3 times, and OW, a divorcee herself.

Had IC today and told her about what was going on with him and DD. She said she had heard of the book but hadn't read it. Said that even his attorney says most dads don't fight for their kids and that after the first year, they begin to fade away. She agreed that DD needs stability, and that just ain't gonna happen if she's shuffled between two houses every other night like he wants.

She had an interesting suggestion, and I wonder what you all think of it... for the two of us to meet with a child therapist so he can really know what's in her best interest. She said if we could work out our own custody visitation arrangement, it would save us both a lot of money. She gave me a referral.

On the way home from dance class tonight, I noticed that H's truck was at OW's house... at p.m.! I'm tempted to leave early tomorrow to see if he's still there before work, but I know I shouldn't do that. Why punish myself and why get up that early?

To be completely honest with you all, I'm really starting to give up hope. Right now, I seriously doubt he will come back, and at this point, I'm not so sure I'd want him to. How do you successful MBers manage to recover from something like this? I don't think I could ever trust him again, especially since we had a similar issue back in '97 when we were dating. I would be living in constant fear it would happen again, as it so obviously has now.

I've been trying to think of my list of demands for when/if he ever wants to reconcile, as suggested here. So far, I think it would require NC with OW, period. And counseling, lots and lots of counseling.

Bump

Hi SadMommy,
I think it's a good suggestion if he's willing. Is there anyway you can meet with the therapist first or talk on the phone to get a feel of the advice she will give? Let her know that in your hopes(?) this M isn't over yet... so she can insert what she feels is appropriate???

Your hopelessness and doubt is normal. Believe me, I didn't file for divorce as a tactic, I intended to follow thru. There was a time I prayed, "God, if you ever want me to take him back you'll have to do the work, because I don't even want it back. (the M)." I called it "unhitching my wagon from his star" from Tony Soprano. When he was in ungodly chaos, it felt good too. So I know how you feel, I don't usually say that to people, but I think I really do. We also had earlier A's, and we have had to completely revamp our relationship and our boundaries and our marriage and our accountability to rebuild trust. But it IS possible.

Don't punish yourself by driving by... oh, who am I kidding, how can you resist. Try, though, try.

NO with OW is a START. I'm going to try to cut & paste what I suggested to Jaysmom...

MSA

Ideas for the "new relationship deal"...

1. Complete, radical honesty about the affair to you - to include reading about withdrawal feelings from an affair
2. No Contact with OW - ever again
3. A NO CONTACT letter written by him to OW, stating that the affair was a mistake, he didn't love her, doesn't love her, he hurt you and your son, he is sorry for all of it, and he never wants to see her or hear from her again and intends to try to repair his broken marriage
4. Marriage counseling, (Christian, pro-marriage counseling), to include Emotional Needs and LoveBuster assessments per MB!
5. Pastoral support and counseling
6. Policy of Joint Agreement (POJA) understanding on all accountability measures taken
7. Anything else that is a deal-breaker for you if it doesn't happen (this may include open email accounts, transparent lifestyle, cell phone passwords, other things...)

Well, try as I might, I couldn't resist, and yes, his vehicle was still there, in the same parking space, covered in dew. What a jerk.

This whole time as naive as it may seem, I've been wanting to give him the benefit of a doubt. I know I have been in denial. Even though you all, and my friends, have said everything, I just didn't want to believe. It didn't seem real. His excuses seemed semi-plausible. Maybe they really are just friends, you know? But now... now I truly know for sure. I feel very angry and sick to my stomach. How could the man I love, the man I trusted, turn out to be such an a$$? Especially when there's a little baby at home!!

He called a few minutes ago to confirm a time to come visit DD tonight. He said he plans to be out of town this weekend. Big surprise... it's the big rivalry football game for our college out of state and I'm sure he's going with OW. At least I won't have to deal with him for a few days. Lord, please give me strength so I don't break my Plan A tonight when he comes over...

Hi, I'm sorry for your 'discovery'.

Stand Tall.

Thanks, HardHead. Hey, how are you?

How did it go tonight with WH?

Well, good and bad. He didn't seem too upset about visiting DD at our house instead of taking her to his apartment, and I thanked him for working with us on that.

He had said earlier that he's going out of town this weekend. I offered to keep the dog while he was gone, but he said he had someone else already doing it.

I just KNOW he's going to Jacksonville with OW for the UGA/Florida game, but he said he's either going backpacking or to visit our mutual friend who lives in Tennessee. I'm very suspicous for several reasons: 1. his tent and sleeping bags are in a closet at the house (although I can't remember if he still has his fancy sleeping bag or not... I think he sold it a while back, but I'm not sure.) 2. Our friend works over night, and this is his weekend to work, so he sleeps all day and works all night. Not condusive to socializing, 3. H NEVER goes out of town. Why THIS weekend, when he will miss his sister's birthday? He says "just because" and then looks guilty. and 4. He got someone else to watch the dog.

I WISH I could have some solid proof, b/c it could be useful if this ends up going to court. Any ideas on how I can find out?

Before H left last night, he seemed like he wanted to talk about something. He had said earlier that he wanted to come see DD Sunday evening, but I told him we already had plans. (There's a MB get-together in Atlanta Sunday, in case you haven't seen that thread). I told him we were meeting friends in Atlanta, trying to build a little mystery. I didn't want to tell him about the BB just yet, b/c he might read my threads and use it against me. Heck, he could say I was putting DD at risk, going to meet strangers from the Internet, you know?

He said he wanted to know what we were going to be doing. I asked him why he cares what I do, since he gets very defensive whenever I ask about his life. He said b/c I'm being a sneaky b**** trying to find out what he does. I said, well, you're my husband. He said, I'm just curious. I said, oh well. Be curious.

I will tell him in time, but I figure, what's the harm in letting him wonder?

Yeah, if he suspects you have met a "new special friend" that's not all bad either. Don't actually MEET one though!!!!! For heaven's sake, don't actually meet one. Remember, you ARE vulnerable to that right now, a shoulder to cry on etc. I'm all for MBers getting together, wish I was in Atlanta, but just be careful about crying on another hurting souls shoulder - stick to BW, not BH...

Have a GREAT time this weekend, I'll be anxious to hear how it was.

Definitely don't tell WH you are posting here now - that's for later in recovery. You need support without him lurking right now, while he's in the fog and will use it emotionally against you. He is not concerned with your recovery & healing right now, obviously. Later, I hope & pray, he will be.

MSA

Nothing to worry about there, as far as going to BWs instead of BHs. DD and I have a busy weekend actually. We'll be going to visit my brother tomorrow for his b-day, and we'll swing by the ILs, too. Then that thing on Sunday.

I've got an appointment Monday morning with an attorney. Just trying to find out what my options are for now, since things are starting to get squirrely when it comes to DD and money and I'm totally unable to concentrate at work b/c I'm so worried about those things.

Yup. An appt with an attorney is a good idea, just to find out information. Doesn't mean at all that you want a D, means you may need to protect yourself and DD.
I hope you have a fun MB weekend!

I think he will be good to talk to. He seemed very nice on the phone... asked me for a run down of the situation and then said we have a lot of options, which he will discuss with me in detail and explain things Monday.

DD and I went to visit the ILs and my brother today. Poor DD, I think she's going through a phase. So fussy and cranky, screaming if anyone other than me holds her. I was hoping she would wow them all with her crawling and pulling up, but she just wanted me to hold her. At least my brother got her to laugh...

I didn't talk to them much about the situation. They really don't want to get involved. FIL said he hadn't really talked to H since the wedding last weekend. Both FIL and MIL are sad.

Did you have fun at MB?

Your IL's probably don't know what the heck to do.

Good luck with the Atty tomorrow - I'll be curious what he has to say.

MSA