Mulan,

Many have posted different definitions or viewpoints on what controlling behavior is and isn't.

That is not the issue for me. The issue to me is your happiness, or lack thereof.

Your posts speak SO loudly to me because they could be my words.



I could have written that myself and probably did at some point, though not verbatim.

Control comes in many different forms. When used in the context which we have been discussing here, it sounds so negative. It made me want to immediately dismiss it, without really examining it because all of my actions, currently or past, had been for all the right reasons and his had been for all the wrong reasons.

I also bent over backwards for Patriot, before and during the A. Even before I had heard the term EN's, I was hitting every one of them all over the board! So then, he goes and has an A and I'M THE ONE WHO IS WRONG???? Screw that!!! I felt completely justified in my anger and really in any LB that I chose to practice after D-Day.

After all, he was the one who chose to go and mess up a perfectly good relationship! How could he blame me for being angry and for acting the way I did??? Before the A, I wasn't angry. I wasn't hateful AT ALL! I was sweet, loving and kind to him all the time! All he had to do was ask for something and it was his!

I, on the other hand, rarely asked for or expected anything from him. My needs were so simple...a kind word, a thank you, a little time spent with me...nothing at all compared to the cartwheels I was willing to perform for him!

Man, I was angry! Then I came to MB and start posting and it felt like everyone was taking HIS side!!!

The fact is, Mulan, I was so controlling before the A. I was even more so after D-Day, because then I was not only practicing the same forms of control to get my needs met, I was then doing it angrily and bitterly as opposed to the sweet, loving, nice way I did it before.

It has been very difficult for me to learn to take my focus off of him, and any mistakes he was/is making, particularly in the throes of SO MUCH pain. I felt so justified, but you know what? It isn't about whether or not I am or am not justified (maybe I am...who knows?), and it isn't about what I think he does or doesn't deserve. I have chosen to remain in this relationship, as have you (I assume this because you are still there). So, given that I have chosen to stay, it's about this:

What negative behaviors am I practicing and how are those behaviors serving me?

Are they making me feel any better?

How are they serving my marriage?

Does feeling morally superior because I wasn't the one who had an A aid in our Recovery or my own personal Recovery?

What am I doing that is hindering the progress of the Recovery of our marriage, or my own personal Recovery?

What can I do to work towards Recovery, regardless of what he does?

THOSE are the things I can change. THOSE are the things I can do something about.

I really had to answer those questions for myself and I had to dig deep and face some pretty big failures on my part - nevermind that his failures seemed way bigger than mine. This new mission wasn't about him in any way...it was about me and me only.

The answers I came up with were these:

What negative behaviors am I practicing and how are those behaviors serving me?

My form of control was much more subtle than just outright demanding. Rarely did I outright demand anything. The majority of it was in the form of some sort of punishment if I deemed he did something wrong.

It was so easy to justify to myself because:

1. I wasn't outright demanding, so it wasn't controlling.
2. I had a right to feel the way I did, so any behavior
that came along with that was to be expected.

Some examples of the way I practiced this control are...

Scenario 1:
Patriot wanted to play games with his friends on the computer all night and I wanted to spend time together talking. If he chose to play games with his friends, of course he was free to do so. I wouldn't demand that he stop.

I would, however, be upset or angry and maybe not pay attention to him when he was finished. Or maybe I would just act cold and distant if he was on a break from gaming for a few minutes and came to me to try to talk to me. At that point, even if he unplugged his computer to try to spend time with me I would have rejected it because he didn't really want to spend time with me or he would have done it on his own in the first place.

Sometimes I used words instead of actions. I might say to him "You don't want to spend time with me...if you did, you would have. I always want to spend time with you, so you don't love me as much as I love you", or something along those lines.

I could give a thousand examples. That is just one. Do you see how controlling that is? It tells him "You are free to do as you wish, but I will try to condition you by punishing you if you make the wrong choice so that you will stop the behavior".

how are those behaviors serving me?

Well, they weren't. In the end, I could never get what I really wanted. It also didn't feel good to feel angry or hurt or rejected. Sure, maybe I had a right to feel those things because of his actions, but keep in mind that I am not focusing on him at this point. Like I said, this was ONLY about me. He is completely out of this equation and it didn't feel good to me to feel those feelings.

How are they serving my marriage?

They were not aiding Recovery at all. The behaviors I was practicing constantly put me in a position of judge, jury, and executioner. That's a lot of work for one person, for one thing. Also, my marriage wasn't getting any happier or any more Recovered.

So, why would I want to keep trying the same thing over and over and expecting things to get better? I didn't! I wanted HIM to change so I would be happy and not feel those negative feelings. I thought he SHOULD be the one to change. After all...he was the one who created this enormous mess! Why would I want to bend over backwards and keep on giving more, more more, when I had already given and sacrificed so much just by even staying with him!

You know what I decided? What does it really matter if the end result is the same? Who cares who goes first? What I WAS doing wasn't working - time to try something new. Since I already knew I couldn't control him or make him do anything, that just left me. Did I want it (Recovery), or didn't I? I do want it. I don't care how we get there, just as long as we get there.

Are they making me feel any better?

I've already stated that they were definitely not making me feel better. In fact, I was starting to feel even worse. The energy I spent on my actions was waning and I felt more and more ill-equipped to deal with it all and more and more ready to just give up and walk away.

Does feeling morally superior because I wasn't the one who had an A aid in our Recovery or my own personal Recovery?

It sure DID NOT aid in our Recovery or my own Recovery. Do I personally think his behavior by having an A was worse than my control (for a good cause, mind you)...HECK YES, I think it was worse! I still think it was worse!

I just think it doesn't matter at this point. What's done is done, on both our parts. I can't change the past and neither can he. So, given that, what is it going to accomplish to sit around and dwell on whose behavior was more abhorrent?

Doing so was only causing me to stay exactly where I was and never, ever move forward. I didn't want to stay exactly where I was. It sucked and it hurt too much.

What am I doing that is hindering the progress of the Recovery of our marriage, or my own personal Recovery?

My own negative behaviors (again, nevermind his) were hindering any progress. I was controlling (or attempting to), and blaming. I wanted to blame him for everything, and did. I he ever did have a good point in an argument, I always had the trump card of "You're the one who had an A", so I would always win. Do I want to win or do I want to be married? I want to be married...to HIM!

What can I do to work towards Recovery, regardless of what he does?

Well, the first thing I could think of was to stop practicing the behaviors that were hindering me and hindering our Recovery.

Step #1: Stop the punishing behavior - those seemingly subtle ways of control that I never wanted to identify as control.

The way I figured it, what would it hurt to try that? I didn't have to do it forever if it didn't work. After really examining it, I didn't see the point in practicing those behaviors anyway because let's face it...they weren't working for me and they weren't moving us towards Recovery.

I know if there is a Step 1 there should obviously be a Step 2, but I'm not there yet. I told you I was just at the very beginning of this concept. I'm still at Step 1 and will stay here until I master it.

Sometimes it is easier to practice than others. Sometimes I struggle with perfectionism and feel at a loss in knowing what would be the action to take or not take to work towards this new behavior, so I stumble with indecision for fear of screwing up.

I figure it is a new behavior, and the more I practice it the more comfortable I will feel doing so.

For instance, I can give you an example from last night:

Patriot wanted to spend the evening studying for a test. I didn't really want him to. I would rather he have spent time with me. He stated earlier in the day that he wanted to study last night. I said okay, because it was what he said he wanted to do that evening, but when it came to time for this I wanted his time.

He was in the kitchen studying and I was in the bedroom, trying to decide how best to not try to control the situation or punish him for his decision. Yet, I still wanted to convey my feelings.

So I hung out in the bedroom, weighing my options and having a conversation with myself, posing questions to myself like:

Should I go in there and tell him I am not happy with his decision any more and I want to spend time with him?

No - he already said that was what he wanted. I did agree. But isn't it okay to share with him how I feel? What if he feels guilty for making his own decision?

I decided against that, because that might not allow him the freedom to feel okay in making his own decision and he might feel guilty then.

Also, he might stop studying, even though he wanted to, just to be attentive or nice to me. That seemed like the same trap I set him up in before. If he had stopped studying, I wouldn't have been happy because I would have felt as though I took the decision away from him and it wouldn't have met my need because it would be contradicting what he already told me he wanted.

Should I just go in there and tell him I wasn't happy about his decision, but I would respect it? I was afraid that would just make him feel guilty for stating what he really wanted to do. That doesn't sound like freedom. It still sounded like a punishment of sorts.

It would have been different if he had asked, but he didn't. If he had, I might have said that I would rather he spend time with me but I understood that he wanted to study, but he didn't ask. He's already stated what he wanted. Again, if I had done that, he may have stopped studying to try to please me. It still wouldn't have met my need and it seemed like a lesser form of control, so that was out.

I was kind of cracking myself up, sitting here having these "what to do" converstions with myself. Like I said, it is still a new behavior for me and not completely comfortable yet.

So I told myself, "You know what Froz, he already said that what he wanted to do was study. He even told you in advance what he wanted. Why is there a need to share how I felt about it? I couldn't change what he wanted, so I might as well allow him to feel free to be honest about what he wants, without fear of punishment or some other sort of retribution from me. I couldn't control what he wanted, but I could control my reactions to it.

Instead of being angry with him or hurt about it...I just let it go and decided to do the best I could with what I had. So I asked myself what I wanted to do, given the fact that I could not change...his wanting to study.

I decided what I wanted to do was not punish him, and not control the outcome of his decision.

So given the facts that were already there, and what I had to work with, I chose to go in the other room where he was studying and give him a kiss on the forehead (which he always likes) and then take a bath and relax in bed and watch t.v. So that's what I did.

It sure felt better to not be angry. It feels better when he gives to me without my subtle hints at what I want. It feels better because when he does give to me, I know it is really what he wants and not because I had to coerce him into it, and I let it go.

That is not to say that I should never state what I want. But the time to state that would have been a POJA when he said he wanted to spend the evening studying.

So I took my bath and watched tv.

It felt so much better to NOT be angry over his choice. It felt better not to try to control him, and accept his decision without punishing him for it.

He also seems to be much more giving and considerate of what I want when he is given the freedom to make his own decisions without punishment.

So far, this new behavior is serving me well. It also seems to be serving our marriage and our Recovery well.

It also seems to be serving my personal Recovery well, because with this acceptance, I am no longer walking around feeling angry and resentful about things I really can't control.

Maybe soon I'll be ready for Step 2 (whatever that may be). I'll figure it out as I go along.

He also seems to appreciate this freedom and seems more open to giving me more of his time. And this time I know it is because he REALLY wants to. I didn't even have to control him to get it, so it feels so much more genuine.

I have to admit, things have sure been much happier around my household lately.

What I really wanted was to set him free. It did not ever occur to me how freeing it would be for me, too.

I can't tell you how much better it feels to be so much freer of my own bitterness and resentment.

Those were things I could change...my reactions.

It's okay to feel angry. You've been betrayed. It's what you do with those feelings that matters and can become controlling, leading you down the path to anger, bitterness, and resentment.

So do you want to continue to be right? Or do you want to be married, given the facts that are there and acknowledging that you cannot change the facts?

frozen1229


I have a suggestion for you for what to do when you find yourself in these situations.

Like you, I will sometimes agree to something, usually not spending time together so that he can participate in an activity, and then find out that I miss him during that time. What I find soothing, is to concentrate on answering the question "What would make this up to me. Or, what can I ask for that would make me feel better."

For example, in that situation, I would have walked in there and said something like I miss you. I understand that you're busy and I am not asking you to stop studying. What I really would like is if we could plan to spend a few hours tomorrow (or soon) doing <something I really like to do like just talking>. How do you feel about that? Or, if you think that would be too disruptive to what he's doing - break his concentration. Ask the next day. I felt sort of lonely last night but I know you were busy studying and we did agree to that in advance. Can we have some quality time together <today, tomorrow, or soon>?

The next step in your process (when you're ready) is to start thinking about how you can offer up your enthusiasm or what positive ways (not punishment) he CAN 'make things up to you' or 'regain your enthusiasm for what he does.' Then, you offer those up in negotiation and allow him the choice (other wise it's manipulation/punishment) to pick something that will help you feel better. Much of the time, people will do something that they know will be greeted with happiness and enthusiasm rather than "you'd better do this and I'll grudgingly accept it."

I'll tell you another story that might help illustrate this.

On my birhtday this year, his mother (my MIL) came to visit. She's always hard for me to cope with and it was a lot of work for me. Not only that, but she didn't even bother to say "Happy Birthday" on my actual birthday. How rude is that? I mean, I knew she wouldn't get me anything (not even a card) because she never does, but how much time does it take to say "Good morning, Happy Birthday" to someone?

Oh well, that's none of that has anything to do with my H. What does have something to do with him is that he had to work and I got stuck with the bulk of the cleaning and all of the cooking. He helped out some (more than he ever has...). So, by the end of the visit, I was feeling kind of out of sorts. We didn't do anything special for me on my birthday and I was wiped out. It really wasn't his fault but he knew I was pretty cranky and he did feel somewhat bad because it was his mother who was the cause of most of it.

He's a sweetie and somewhat of a romantic so when he tries to cheer me up, he wants to know if I want to go here or there for some romantic something or other. Either that, or he wants to buy me something.

I told him that wasn't really what I wanted because I was TIRED!! I said "Let me think about what it is that I want and get back to him." What I came up with was that I was sick and tired of cleaning the kitchen and doing the dishes. I asked if he would just take the kitchen off my hands for 1 week - I don't have to do anything and he'd make an effort to keep it like I keep it. He said "Is that ALL?" I said: "Yep, if you do that I'll feel much better about everything." So, he did and I did and everything worked out.

You see, never in a million years would he have worked out that what I wanted was more help in the kitchen. He never would have suggested it. He never would have spontaneously thought to himself "Gee, she's done a lot of dishes. I bet she's tired of it. Maybe I should do this sinkful."

But, I KNOW myself. For that entire week, every time I washed a dish I'd be standing there thinking: "Geeze. I'm so tired of doing dishes. You'd think SOMEONE else in this house could do them besides me. What am I? The maid? <resent, resent, resent>." Instead, for one week, when I walked into the kitchen, it wasn't my problem. And, it wasn't just getting dirtier and waiting for me to resume my 'duties.' It was being cleaned and it's a way that I wanted to receive care at that moment. It cheered me up immediately so he didn't have to deal with a cranky wife.

It wasn't punishment. That would have been sitting there being cranky and wondering why he didn't get the hint about me being tired of dishes. Yet, it also took care of my needs too. It was negotiation and radical honesty. I half expected him to say "No." to the dishes thing or feel it was stupid. Instead, he was relieved because he thought I was going to ask for sometihng REALLY elaborate or REALLY expensive. He wasn't thinking of mundane things. But, when I mentioned it, he also kept up with some other routine house chores more dilligently that week on his own. If he had said no, I remember having some other options (choices 2 and 3) to ask for but I don't remember what they were now.

Anyway, maybe this will give you some ideas.

Mys

Thanks for the suggestions.

Lucky for me, I really do have a wonderful H. If I had REALLY needed him that night, he would have put his books down in a minute.

I don't need him to make it up to me. I am learning to not view it as a sacrifice to meet his needs. He certainly doesn't act like it is a sacrifice to meet mine.

I have a wonderful, wonderful husband who would move heaven and earth just to make me happy.

Aren't I lucky?

My take on this is that a W who is being controlling is dealing with a H who is being inconsiderate. If the H believed in the POJA, there would be no need for her to be viewed as controlling. He wouldn't want to do anything she viewed as negative.

Cherished

TA,

just wanted to let you know that I copied your response to this to save it because it makes a lot of sense to me, and thanks for sharing that.

Mulan, I think part of the disagreement on this thread might be because of a misunderstanding. I think that just because you have been accused of trying to control or manipulate your H's behaviour doesn't mean that you actually were. Maybe he is just not used to you acting independently and from a position of strength. On the other hand, you might have been trying to control him.

For me, the difference is whether I feel like there is only one option that the other could do. I feel very panicky and out of control about whether he will choose that option. If he tries to choose something else, I might go quiet and withdraw, cry, accuse him of being selfish, talk about it with my friends who agree with me about how crazy he is, and pity myself.

On the other hand, giving up control of others means that I develop a deep trust in myself that I can cope with every eventuality, that I am responsible for my life and that I will make good decisions. If the other will not negotiate and chooses an option that I cannot live with, I can let him know it is unacceptable to me.
I can take my time to choose how to respond in a way that shows my love and respect for myself.

Its possible that someone who is used to the former behaviour might easily see the latter as 'control'.

**One more point - I think the reason why MB 'principles' sometimes seem counter-intuitive at first glance is because they involve some relinquishing of control. Most people (including me!) find it scary to relinquish control of others and to instead take full responsibility for themselves. Its very difficult and frightening IMO, and I have been learning how to do it.

What do you think you will do, Mulan?