CLANG! CLANG! CLANG! CLANG! CLANG!

WARNING BELLS, WHISTLES AND RED FLAGS GALOUR HERE, Jeannie.

Truly, and with all respect due to you, I say this man is more than a lot screwed up. Any, and ALL accusations from him about you being sick or in any way wrong about your concerns regarding his behavior is TEXTBOOK denial on his part. He is a train wreck waiting to happen and you are better off with him completely out of your, and your kid's, lives.

Unfortunately, I know of what I speak. I am sorry for your situation, but you must open your eyes to the fact that you are married to a victimizer. Please, please start counseling for yourself so you can work on your own self esteem and build up the courage to get him out of your life. This is NOT a matter of him simply refusing to have sex with you. A competent counselor will be able to assist you in seeing things for what they truly are.

I wish you the best, Jeannie and hope you are strong enough to see things clearly in time.

WOW, this is a lot to take in! If you all read my posts from yesterday afternoon, I ended up having an extremely inconstructive conversation with my husband. Basically, he said that there is no chance he will ever have sex with me, and he will get out of our lives within a month. I truly don't believe that he will leave his kids and go back to where he came from (3000 miles away). BUT, he is very strong-willed, so who knows?

I appreciate all the suggestions about the sex life, but I must repeat that there is NO chance that he will get counseling or come to any kind of agreement to have any kind of intimacy or sex with me. I guess he feels nothing for me - no friendship, no like, no love. He WILL NOT have sex with me and he has made that crystal clear.

Do I try to talk him into staying now (knowing that I will continue to be celibate) because we are Christians, and bibically it is the right thing to do, or should I see a lawyer tomorrow?

Please excuse my rambling. I am very tired and very distraught.

Jeannie

You have left out info. that is VERY pertinent to the question you asked (IMO). How old are your kids? What is his relationship with them like? What would be the impact to your kids lives if you two were to split? What would be the impact to you financially if he left? Would you go from a stay-at-home Mom to a working Mom? Is this something you could bear for a few years until the kids are grown?

Often in an abusive situation, the kids are better off with the abusive parent gone. But, if there is no abuse (use your judgement on this), and he is an attentive father, they may be better off with him there. Since you mention that you're both practicing Christians, perhaps your Pastor can help you answer these questions for yourself.

Again, you're in our thoughts and prayers.

<small>[ January 07, 2003, 07:00 AM: Message edited by: Keith101 ]</small>

Do not talk him into staying. That is a form of manipulation. But as you say he is a very good father, so he might have been talking in anger.

I cannot say any thing about the child molestations since I have not experienced it in any way.

My opinion says that he does not feel safe talking with anyone about what happen to him growing up. It could simply be the male ego saying I do not need any help or afraid of the person who abused him. What could you do to make yourself safe to talk to for him? Is there someone he respects that he could talk to?

Have you told him you are uncomfortable doing x while having sex? What was his response?

Sorry no suggestions just questions! <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" />

We have three boys, 10, 7, and 5. They are all very close to their father (especially the oldest) and as far as I can see, he has never done anything but been a good father to them.

As for how things would be for me as a single parent, I cannot go into detail, but put it this way, recently the financial burden has been on me and will continue to be on me (and please understand that this is NOT out of laziness on his part. It is logistics.)

No, he does not have anyone in his life that he can trust (Surprise. Do you think he could have a trust issue???!!!)

He will not talk to the pastor. He will not talk to me. He will not talk to a counselor.

You see, this man is greatly respected by all the people that he deals with in his life and business, and if you met him, you would probably really like him.

I am the only one that has to deal with the consequences of his deep dark secrets. And, he is the "wise, intelligent, kind man" who everyone thinks "has it together." He would never dare to let anyone know that he is so messed up. He does not even realize it himself!!!

By the way, he was verbally abusive to me yesterday in our "fight." He tried to make me feel unnatractive, unworthy, and just plain ugly as a person. Of course I was sitting on the couch with tears streaming down my face, and I felt the things he was saying.

He has tried to convince me for ten and a half years that his leaving would be devastating for the children (even though he has separated from me twice since the oldest was born).

Yesterday he appeared to be trying to manipulate me into thinking that it is okay that I have been celibate all these years because at least our children have had both of their parents. And, he tries to make me believe that all I care about is sex, and that sex is my only focus when we get into these discussions. I basically told him that, yes, he is a good person, and his refuasal to touch me is the only thing that I cannot deal with.

As far as the sexual contact that I have had with him (an unfortunately this seems completely moot now), when he did things to me that were uncomfortable, he told me that I needed to relax and not try to be in control all the time.

Put it this way, in fourteen years, this man has "made love" to me about 35 times, and engaged in "weird" sex with me about another 35 times.

Someone earlier suggested that he is looking at porn on the Internet and pleasuring himself too much. Well, I found several porn sights on his "favorites" list. When I jokingly confronted him, he said that he did not select those sights, but they came up automatically on his favorites. Is this possible??????

No, you select what you put on your favorites. No one else does. He is lying. Does he lie about other things too?

I still wish he had found a woman out there who loved the perverted sex stuff that you don't(I wouldn't either) want to do. Why go after "you" when you would not have the type of sex he loves.

I believe he is sick and manipulative. And does not care about your feelings. He is trying to make you feel so bad about yourself that you will sacrifice the rest of your emotions and life to be with him. Maybe you are his meal ticket now and it is easier for him than moving away. If he moved away, he might have to get a normal job!

baba2,

You are very intuitive, and I always appreciate your posts.

I never thought about it that way. I guess he does want me to sacrifice everything, just so he can be with his kids.

I had a strong feeling that he was lying about the "favorites." As far as I know, he has been very honest with me through the years. I am the one who is guilty of lying. I have convinced myself that he and I are not in a relationship and I do not owe him anything (honesty, explanations, etc.) Maybe this is wrong, but he gives me NOTHING - he is merely my children's father. Do I owe him anything???

Do you owe him anything. Complex question. You may feel you owe him nothing. In a normal relationship, like a normal marriage, both try to give to each other and fill each others needs. But it is not like they "owe" each other. And yours is not a normal marriage. Marriages without sex are not normal if one partner does want sex.

The last time I heard this question was in my own mind when trying to get myself to break up with my boyfriend of 10 years. The guy was a drain on me and did not give anything to the relationship. He could not manage money, lazy, etc. He had had a "rough childhood" full of abuse so I justified his personality problems and staying with him because of that. I kept trying to help him and change him so he(and therefore we) could have a happier life. Nothing worked. I wanted to break up but felt guilty. He made me feel even more guilty saying I had wasted his best years! Here I was trying to "help" him all those years! Finally I broke it off and 6 months later met a man who is my husband now. A night and day difference. We have our problems but had I stayed with the disfunctional boyfriend, I would have had a terrible life.

I can not totally understand your plight however since I have never had children. Maybe some others here can address that. Good Luck!

<small>[ January 07, 2003, 01:08 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

baba2,

One of the things that I cannot understand is that when I tell my husband that I have wasted the best years of my life and I have wanted him the whole time (intimately and sexually) and would be with him any time, night or day, he tells me that he has wasted the best years, too, and his sexual desire is just as strong as mine. He wants "it" constantly, too, but just not with me.

My husband is almost 39. His choice (admittedly) would an eighteen-year-old with a tight body and a flat chest. I am almost 39, and I am voluptuous. But doesn't getting old and changing physically go with the territory when you get married. I mean, I was 24 when I met him, and I didn't have any kids, and I look GOOD. But, through the years of having kids, and getting older, and being celibate, I do look a little different. But, I know I am attractive to other men my age, because I am constantly being told.

Am I just being a completely idiot by harping on this over and over constantly, day after day, year after year?

Am I stupid to sit here while he tells me what type of woman he wants sexually and tells me that he will never be with me??????

You can literally "sit there" nicely for 15 minutes and listen as he tells you that stuff but I would not just "sit there" for another 14 years trying to get what you need and want from him.

At least he is telling you he does not want you! And therefore you can move on! He cannot expect you to stay with no sex. Although some people put up with celibate marriages, it is not the way marriage is supposed to be.

Let me clarify,

He has manipulated me for fourteen years by sometimes telling me that we can work it out, telling me that he wakes up with a fresh attitude every morning, telling me that if there was nothing between us we would have split up a long time ago. He also tells me that he is just here for the kids and we have NOTHING together.

While you are correct in saying that he has told me he doesn't want me, he has also given me mixed messages all these years.

I have told him that I will not go another thirteen years (until the youngest is 18) without intimacy. Sometimes he says, "No kidding!" And he tells me that I am not the only one in this boat. He is "going without" too. (OH, poor baby).

And, sometimes he tells me that in order to have sex with me, we have to establish a relationship from square one, and the sex will come along after a while.

You see, for many years we would have a big talk about once a year, and we would feel close and we would agree to start working on the intimacy, and then he would make love to me that night, and possibly the next, and then........nothing for about another year.

Do you see all the manipulation involved here???

I am sorry I have gone on and on about this for the past few days, but it is REALLY helping me to get this off of my chest.

He is really "good" in that he knows exactly how far he can push you and how "very little" he can get away with giving to the relationship in order to keep the status quo.

If I were you, I would run to a good lawyer and develop a plan. Determine your rights and "what you owe him" if anything. Then write down a "step by step plan of escape" for yourself if you get tired of dealing with his manipulations, perversions, empty promises, and lies. This plan on paper will give you a feeling of power and knowledge should it come to that.

Perhaps even now, as we speak, he is getting his legal plan ready and you will have to fight him for the kids or pay him alimony because, "he says he took time off from work to care for the children"....

I am not supposed to urge you to separate since this is a "marriage saving" board. So I won't. Even though I truly feel that I want to fly over there to your place myself and change your locks for you and shove him and all his stuff out the door!

But since I don't know your whole story, and you have kids, and I am no counselor, and this is a marriage board, well. I cannot tell you to separate. You have to decide what you will put up with. Wow, good luck!

<small>[ January 07, 2003, 02:01 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Jeannie-

Your H has some problems. Personally, I would be very vigilant with him and kids...that worries me. But even leaving that aside, there are some serious issues here.

You are right that you cannot make him go to counseling or get help. If he would do so, then propbably the right thing to do would be to give him a chance (again, while being vigilant around kids). However, you can (and have) asked him to do so, and he refuses.

Whether you are "obligated" to stay or not (or try and get him to stay) depends on your POV. Some Christians would say yes...that this counts as "sickness and health". In my POV, no...not after making an honest request for him to attempt change, and being turned down flatly..I'd look at his threat of leaving as a blessing at this point. But the most important thing is what YOU believe and can live with...none of the rest of our opinions matter in the long run.

Whatever you decide, I hope it goes well for you.

Kathi

Jeannie2:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Do I try to talk him into staying now (knowing that I will continue to be celibate) because we are Christians, and bibically it is the right thing to do, or should I see a lawyer tomorrow? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">In my opinion (and ILMF, et al are welcome to weigh in here, but I think this is pretty scripturally solid), you don't try to talk him into staying- no persuaded action is real. What you need to do is recognize that the Christian resolution may take some time to come to fruition. KAM is right in mentioning staying with someone in sickness and health- and that means that you don't manipulate the situation to drive him out and then say that he deserted you, but nor do you lie down as a doormat so he can stomp all over you. The point is to be reasonably available as a Christian spouse is, and let the chips fall.

So, you tell him honestly that you don't want to break up the marriage, God hates divorce, etc. But he has to make his own decisions, and you are happy to work with him on building a real relationship, but won't pretend this is real if it is not. You can't do anything that is coercive or promotes a breakup, and you need to always be willing, up till the final end, to heal it and create a real marriage. But, if he goes, he has departed, as Paul describes, and you then take stock and see where God wants you at that point. Whatever you do, don't jump the gun, which is why a Plan B is the best solution right now- he may find life a lot different than he thinks it will be out on his own.

God bless you, and do the right thing, not the easy thing, OK?

I would not noemally disagree with another member here. But I think this talk of being "scripturally solid" and Paul and not persuading is logic that is somewhat flawed(IMHO).
I have been very comitted to marriage and I am a Christian. My wife however has decided not to be committed to our marriage on at least two other occaisions besides this one. At no time did I consult the scriptures or God. Although I did pray a lot.And continued to stay committed to our marriage. I will say that I will not consult God on her last act of betayal and alchoholism. I will pray that someday she becomes whole again.
But quite frankly she has "earned" the divorce she is about to receive.
My point is this Jeannie. I too believe that God does not want divorces to ever occur and that you should remain as committed as you possibly can to this man. But it could also be argued bibically speaking, that he has not done Gods will in addressing your needs.
So, what I am saying is that you need to reasonably determine what effect this will have on your children and family if you should decide to end it.
To do this you will need to Plan B him and see where this goes. In the meantime it will help you decide what other personal steps you can take for Jeannie .
My point is this. While I believe you are a committed Christian, you are an affair waiting to happen.
That could be a disaster.
In my case, I had to weigh whether my wife was more of an asset or liability to the family given her destructive behavior of alchoholism and unreliability,etc, etc, etc.
I concluded that because she had no interest in her children and was unwilling to discuss with them why she was doing what she was doing,that she was a major liability.
I cannt replace what she "used" to do for the children. That being...a Mother. By the flipside of the coin...she is just rejecting two wonderful boys who now truly resent her because of her inability to do the right things. Specifcally, why she is doing what she is doing. And letting them know that she loves them more than anything.
But, she does not. She is an addict.
You may find his to be true of your husband. Except his addiction is for someting else. Do not cover for him.
If you believe that your marriage or your person is being jeopardized by his actions, or you think your childrens safety is being compromised it is time to Plan B. Ask for the Lords forgiveness later. It certainly sounds like you have done all you can. For now.

PLEASE forgive me, but what is "Plan B"? I, unlike the rest of you, have jumped into this without going through the normal route of the Marriage Builders course. I have an unwilling partner who is not open to any kind of counseling. Perhaps I have taken the wrong approach, but when I found a supportive message board, I went for it.

My mind has been a whirlwind these past couple of days, and let me tell you, when my husband insulted me in an "underhanded" way today, I told him that I refuse to listen to his verbal abuse and I am working on my self-esteem.

The tension is EXTREMELY thick in my house right now.

You can read through the basic concepts of MB and that will give you enough information to at least work on your self-esteem in a positive way and avoid any LB's that you may be making along the way. You have children, so you're always going to be in contact with your husband---knowing what MB is all about will help you to deal with all the baloney that may arise during your divorce.

I URGE you to read the general welcome to newbies that I posted earlier on in the thread. There you can find info about Plan A and Plan B as well as some useful information about how and why we act the way we do with our spouses.

My husband was an unwilling participant, too. When I used the MB concepts, he showed improvement in a BIG way.

Good luck.

I am sorry, aeri, but I don't know where to look for your post. You said it is "earlier on the thread". I don't know where that would be.

I'll post it again..hehe

Click the link below...it'll take you to a page that gives you ALL the info you'll need, including abbreviations and etc.

General Welcome For All New Builders

<small>[ January 07, 2003, 09:01 PM: Message edited by: aeri ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Jeannie2:
<strong>

My husband is almost 39. His choice (admittedly) would an eighteen-year-old with a tight body and a flat chest. I am almost 39, and I am voluptuous. But doesn't getting old and changing physically go with the territory when you get married.
Am I stupid to sit here while he tells me what type of woman he wants sexually and tells me that he will never be with me??????</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Jeannie, I could have written this myself. On our honeymoon I cried because my husband pointed out thin, flatchested women with long blond hair and said he wished I looked like them. Why on earth did he marry me? On my wedding day I was 5'3" tall, 38C, great hourglass figure, and a brunette!!! He was never attracted to me, but I tried so hard to make our marriage work despite the rejection. We had sex fewer than 10 times in 12 years....none the last 7....and it was always my fault. He said I was frigid, didn't treat him right, acted like a hooker when I wore something sexy......
I realize now that I've been away from him 6 months that it really wasn't me....He was attracted to boys and nothing I did would have mattered. I still don't have a clue why he chose me to marry and make miserable....but I'm so glad to be away from him. Please get some space and see if your perspective isn't clearer!