Committedhusb,
I've little left to say in this one, but got a grin at the invitation to "ilmf et al" to weigh in... nah, nothing really for me to add. After I found the right page and paragraph I thought you said what you said very well.

This fellow, Keith101... seems a sharp one, too.

Jeannie2,
Not to worry if the MB lingo throws you a bit... Fact of the matter is that I found the site AFTER reading HN/HN (sorry, His Needs Her Needs) - the URL was on the back cover flap. Even with that foundation, I had to review my "Plan-B" terminology and stuff. It's a great forum, and one of the intros welcomes all people who wish to respectfully discuss, etc. To which, I think one who just hasn't read up on all the vernacular won't be excluded.

Do take care though... it's very easy to be comforted here (anywhere) in ways that lead to even more bitter spiritedness than is necessary. Even consoling arms can lead us down incorrect paths in our thinking. Almost contradictory to an apparent purpose to the board, where support is a definite plus. Sometimes it isn't that we are able to really ever provide you with any answers you don't already have yourself, but with reflection to clarify those answers that you already had. So that sometimes what one says here is said back, multiplied... I think that might be how sometimes good things blossom, or bad things fester - and either can be disproportionate to their more proper measure.

hmm.... and since I haven't a whit to add to the actual topic itself, I believe I'll close here for now.

I hope that everyone is well

Oh... one more thing, Jeannie2, regarding the MB principles. It IS definitely worthwhile reading - both the Harley stuff, and the thoughts of people here (even in threads that have nothing to do with yourself). I've learned a great deal about how people think & behave, even of myself. For that alone it's worth a great deal. But if your husband isn't willing to discuss things isn't willing to POJA then learning and understanding is about the limit of it. Absence of mutuality in application is the real #1 and only flaw I can see in the MB concepts, but that's not a flaw in the concepts at all - but in the people who won't play ball.

That's some preface stuff since you said you were new to the "system". Nothing to discourage you but rather instead to help prevent discouragement by hopefully (and only my opinion, you'll see that "IMHO" is a very popular addition to many comments here) helping define expectations you set for yourself as you establish goals, weighing the pros and cons of each as you go.
...so you see, I'm not as ugly as I made myself sound in your post to begin with (well, maybe not)

be well

jeannie, your thread caught my eye as celibacy is a loooong time problem in my soon-to-end marriage. I could write volumes, but I'll try to make this short.

I'll start by saying withholding intimacy in the ways you've described is insanely cruel. It's abuse, and MB principles won't fix abusive relationships. The best MB principles can do for you is to make YOU a better person by following the principles of Plan A. It sounds like your h is much like mine in that he refuses to 'participate' in the marriage. Nothing you do, don't do, say, or not say will ever be satisfactory to an abusive person. They are crafty and skilled at turning things around so it looks like you're the faulty one. They live in a different reality, and it's unrealistic to expect reasonable or rational behavior from someone who isn't either of those things.

Perhaps ilmf or others can supply the scripture... I'm thinking of the part where it talks about a marriage with a believer and an unbeliever. The believer is allowed to let the unbeliever depart if that's what the unbeliever wants. ... I'll wager a guess though that he's using fear and guilt to control you and that he has no intention of leaving. Abusers need a victim. Why would he leave? Get all three books by Patricia Evans and read them. She has a message board at verbalabuse.com too. Good luck. You'll need it!

Thanks to you all, once again. It REALLY helps to know that I am not the only one, even though I know that this kind of situation is extremely rare. I did read through the explanations of plan A and plan B.

I think that my problem is that I have absolutely no hope that my husband will come to grips with his problem. He definitely sees ME as the abuser and has called me abusive many, many times. He actually had me convinced for YEARS that the absence of sex was my fault. I kept thinking back to before I met him, and I thought, not only was my love life normal, but nobody ever asked me to engage in anything that was strange or uncomfortable to me. I told my H numerous times that I am "normal." There is absolutely nothing wrong with me in that department, and I have been available to be intimate with him 7 days a week since the day we met. (I really DO enjoy snuggling, intimate conversation, lovemaking.) BUT, he told me over and over and over that I make it impossible for him to want to touch me.

Is is possible that this marriage is beyond repair? He has told me many times that we have nothing. We are not in a relationship. We are in a situation. We are the parents of three children. That is it.

Once again, am I missing something here?

Are you missing something? Yes.

This is what you are missing:

Normal, regular sex.
Warm cuddling
Love
Caring
Mutual Respect
Emotional Support, not manipulation
Honesty
Someone who wants to please you sexually
Someone you can please sexually
Someone you want to initiate sex with
A close trusting relationship
No perversions
No fear of child molestation
A man who will contribute financially to the marriage.
A mutual sense of humor( can only be there if the love, respect and trust is there)
A striving together for mutual goals.
A respect and love for yourself
A trust in your own instincts
A total love for who you are.
A love and trust for him, your husband.
A man who is not damaged and twisted
A man who won't continually blame you
A man who goes to counseling if it is needed or because you want him to.
A "real" and loving marriage.

Is this enough stuff for you to miss? Could there be more things you could list here? You have been missing all this for 14 years. How could you have lived without these important things in your life? How much longer will you miss these essential things and continue to live without them? Please trust your instincts on this. Your heart is telling you something! Telling you something is wrong here in Denmark!

<small>[ January 08, 2003, 01:15 PM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

Whether some marriages are beyond repair is a big question. But as for your marriage, as long as he refuses counseling or any attempts to fix things...I'd have to say "yes."

The question then becomes what do you want to do about it? And that isn't something someone else can answer for you, I'm afraid.

<small>[ January 08, 2003, 01:07 PM: Message edited by: kam6318 ]</small>

Just wanted to tell you that I know you are sorting everything out in your mind and this could take weeks or months! My posts are blunt and are my true feelings and just take them as another point of view. And I never had children so I do not know how they are affected one way or another. So, good luck with your sorting process and may you come out with the truth for your life. Keep venting and talking it out on this board and you maybe want to get a counselor too to help. Good thinking and good Luck!

Wow, baba2, I don't have any of the things on your list.

I want to start counseling (again) so badly, but I don't know how I will be able to. The "sliding scale" clinic here says I have to pay $60.00 an hour according to my income!!! (I am living at poverty level). I do not think that Christian counseling is an option for me at this point because there are some things that I need to discuss that I am afraid I will be judged on.

I will keep pursuing the counseling idea, and any suggestions are greatly appreciated!

Someone suggested this on another board and I thought it was so good I copied it here for you!

Blocks To Love
by: Henry Cloud, Ph.D.

In the mere contemplation of love, we are humbled. For who among us could ever claim to have "figured it out?" The mysteries of love and how to make it work baffle even the most well-intentioned. In many contexts, from parenting to marriage, friendship to business relationships, we find that our best efforts often fail and disappointment finds its way into our most valued sphere of life.

Why is this? There are many reasons, but they all come down to a basic orientation in ourselves towards ourselves. In other words, ever since Adam, we have been basically looking out for number one, and that is the surest way to destroy a relationship. We have a tendency to think of ourselves first instead of the relationship itself. We are trying to get what we want instead of seeing also the needs of others. And as a result of this self-orientation we destroy all chances of getting what we want and need, which in the final analysis is always love.

So, in an edition dedicated to love we thought it appropriate to look at some of the things that we do that get in the way of love. In some ways, it is also a look at maturity, for it is only the mature person who loves well. We will be taking a look at the ways of functioning that prevent love from growing in almost any context, whether it be , friendship, marriage, parenting, work or church relationships.

And before we get into looking at these traits, one sober word of warning: In looking for the problems in any relationship we are in, we always do well to point the finger back at ourselves. At least as Jesus said, it is a good place to begin to look! There is no doubt that others cause some of the pain and failure of relationships in our lives. But the reality is that we are probably adding to the problem or if we are not, we probably could be doing some things better that would give us a better chance of working it out, even if you find yourself in a relationship with a "problem person." Sometimes, the most immature people can grow when in the presence of an integrating relationship. So, in looking at some of the dynamics of what the blocks are to good relationships, keep yourself in mind. The more that you can take ownership of these tendencies in yourself, the more likely you are to make relationships work and to pick people who are able to make them work as well. Mature people tend to pick mature people. Now, join me in a look at the things that poison love.

The Love Killers-Poisons To Avoid

Self-centeredness or Ego-centricity

Many people think of selfish people as being difficult. But "self-centeredness" comes closer to the real description of what a truly selfish person is. What it means is that someone basically experiences life mostly in terms of him or herself. Someone has said, "To interpret any event only in terms of how it affects oneself is to live on the doorstep of Hell." And that is true.

When one is self-centered, he guarantees the failure of love, for love is an attachment between two people, and the self-centered person denies the reality of the "other." He only sees others as extensions of himself. They exist to make him happy, serve his needs, regulate his feelings or drives in life. And whey they fail to do that by having an existence of their own, he has some sort of negative reaction, such as anger, withdrawal of love, controlling behavior or rejection. This orientation to another person being more of an object for self-gratification than a person makes a true attachment impossible. Love requires two people, not one person and an "object."

We could write about this dynamic for a long time, but one quick way to understand it is to look at it in terms of the quote above. "Only me" involves not ever adapting to someone else's wishes or needs, or sacrificing something that I want for another person or a purpose or group larger than myself. Or to think of the significance of events or people only as I am benefited or denied.

Lack of Observing Oneself

Psalm 36 says the following: "For in his own eyes he flatters himself too much to detect or hate his sin." And 1 John says the same thing in another way: "If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us."

The idea is this and is one of the most frustrating qualities that anyone can have in a relationship: The inability to see one's own behavior, especially when one is wrong. Have you ever had that experience, to be in a relationship with someone who could not see when they were wrong? There is such little hope to get past any conflict that you might be having.

No relationship or person is perfect. And we can work out any kind of conflict with anyone as long as the two people involved are able and willing to look at their own behavior and own it. The act of ownership of our wrongs makes moving past the conflict and getting to a deeper connection possible, and when someone cannot see their wrong, the relationship gets stuck.

The injured party feels hopeless, and there is little chance for comforting them by the one who hurt them, because no apology is forthcoming. The conflict cannot be solved. This is why God is so into our confession. It lets us get to a better place. Let yourself always look first to yourself in any conflict to see where you might be wrong. That will enable you to see the truth of the situation more clearly. (Matt. 7:3-5)

Inability to Validate Another's Experience

Being understood is one of our deepest needs. We don't really need to know that we are "right," as much as we need to know that someone understands how we feel and what our "reality" is. Making this connection with each other is called "empathy." When we feel a certain way, we need to know that others validate our experience, meaning that they understand how it is for us.

Proverbs 18:13 says, "He who answers before listening-- that is his folly and his shame." We need to be listened to and understood, not quickly negated for how we feel and what we think. Research has shown that some of the most serious emotional disorders come from having ones emotions misunderstood. For instance, how do you feel when someone says, "Oh, come on, that didn't hurt!" or "Oh, that wasn't so bad." We immediately go further away inside our hearts, and feel a breach with the person. On the other hand, when someone says something that shows their understanding, we are more open to input about our reality. "Sounds like that was very difficult for you," is an example of an empathic statement that draws people closer together.

Understanding how someone feels or thinks, or how an experience was for them is something that builds bonds and connections between people. The inability to do that destroys connection and alienates the parties.

Play Fair

This one sounds weird, for it seems that playing fair would be a good thing. The problem is that fair is what the Bible calls "the Law." In other words, it means returning an "eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth." It means that we treat others as they treat us If they are kind, then we are kind. If they hurt us, then we hurt them back. If they are immature, then we are immature as well.

Listen to what Jesus says, "If you love those who love you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' love those who love them. And if you do good to those who are good to you, what credit is that to you? Even 'sinners' do that." (Luke 6:32,33) It is easy for us to be good to those who earn it. The problem is that no one earns it all the time, and every relationship has problem behavior. This is why simple "fairness" cannot work, for then the worst behavior in the relationship becomes the common denominator.

To transcend a pattern in a relationship, we cannot play fair and return evil for evil. (Rom.12:17) The only way for any relationship to overcome our imperfections is for the receiving party to be "bigger than that," and return grace and truth instead of the injury. Simple fairness will kill any relationship.

Emotional Detachment

"The lights are on but nobody is home." To be emotionally detached is to be out of touch with one's feelings and unable to be emotionally present in a relationship. It can be a killer to intimacy, because it feels to the other party that they are alone, even though someone is there.

The Bible says that to love God involves the heart as well as the mind. When we are out of touch with our feelings and cannot express them to one another, then intimacy is blocked, and our experience is one of the person's heart being "far away."

To feel close, we need to be present emotionally. Our needs, vulnerabilities, fears, pain, tender feelings, and the like must be communicated and expressed. When someone is detached from feelings, and the ability to express them, the other person cannot feel the kind of connection that we think of as "intimacy," or "being known." Intimacy involves the heart, as well as the mind. As David said, God desires truth in the "innermost being." (Ps. 51:6) If someone is out of touch with their deep feelings and innermost parts, then shallow relationships are what follows.

Control and Denial of Separateness

Paul tells us that freedom is so important, that Jesus died for it. (Gal. 5:1) We are not to be under any kind of slavery ever again. But the reality is that many people do not honor freedom in their relationships. They do not see the other person as a free person from them, able to make their own decisions and have their own desires. Instead, they see the other as an extension of themselves, and have strong attempts to control the freedom of the one they "love."

Love can only exist where there is freedom. Our attempts to control what another person thinks, feels, wants, does, values, believes, etc. are destined to drive them away, and ultimately destroy love. Love only exists as we see another person in their own right as a separate individual, who as Jesus said is free to do what they want to with what is their own. (see Matt. 20:15) When someone says "no," we are to respect it. When they have choices and wishes that are different from ours, we are to respect them as well.

Wish For Eden

There was a time when everything was perfect. It was called paradise, and the Bible refers to it as the Garden of Eden. In that place, everything was "good." But, as the rest of the Bible tells us, and history confirms, Eden has been lost, and we live in an imperfect world. What that translates to in the world of relationships is that we will always be in relationships with people who have imperfections.

To the extent that someone has come to grip with this reality, they have satisfactory relationships. They can accept others for who they are and solve problems. But if they still have a wish to be in the Garden where things are perfect, they are always frustrated with the people they find themselves connected to. They always want more, they judge and protest the reality of who the person is and there is very little safety for love to grow.

Narcissism and perfectionism are killers to real relationship. Real love can only grow where someone's "real self" can be known and accepted by the other person. If there are demands for perfection and the "ideal person," then love is blocked.

"I Know Better" and other "Parental Dynamics"

Adults who are in significant relationships are meant to be equals and share the reality of who they are in a spirit of mutuality. Some people, however, want not to be equals, but one-up on the other person. They want to be in more of a parent-child type of connection where they are in charge. They have expectations for the other to be in subjection to them in some strange way, and are dominating in their style.

This type of "I know better" stance blocks love in a horrible way, as the person who is "under" feels belittled, controlled, dominated and disrespected. In the best scenario's, the so-called "benevolent dictator," the one on the bottom rung fails to grow up and develop into who they were meant to be.

Typical of this type of stance are a lot of "you should's," that dominate the person's thinking, as they freely tell the other person how to think, live, be and what to do. The biggest problems to love in this type of connection come from the resentment in the one-down person, and their drive to become independent from the dominating one. As Jesus said, we are to all be equals and put no one on a parental pedestal. (Matt. 23:8)

Lack of Boundaries

The last block to love that we will consider is the lack of boundaries. What this means is someone's inability to take a stance of self-control and to have a proper relation to the word "no." Boundary problems are usually seen in someone's inability to either say "no," or hear "no" from others. When we have these kinds of disturbances, we either allow people to walk all over us in a way that destroys respect, or we walk all over them and "trespass" against them, destroying love in the process. True love respects each other's boundaries, saying "no" when we need to, and respecting it when we hear it.

Another aspect of boundaries has to do with requiring responsible behavior from each other in a relationship and taking a stance against evil when it occurs. True love cannot grow when evil is allowed to triumph. When we have the boundaries to "abhor what is evil," and take a stance against it, we preserve the good in a relationship and help it to grow by solving problems.

Summary

Love is not an easy thing to accomplish in this life. In fact, it is so difficult because of our particular inclinations to do the very things we just talked about. There is a part of all of us that tends to try to please ourselves instead of accomplish love, and in the process we lose the love that we wanted in the first place. Remember, love does not "just happen." It takes work. And part of the work that you will have to do is to avoid the kinds of blocks to love mentioned above. Good luck, and God Bless as you "love one another" as He has loved you. (John 13:34)

Jeannie2, what kind of thing would a legitimate and good Christian counselor, as opposed to a propagandist for a group of fundamentalists, "judge" you over? One of the greatest problems in the Body of Christ is the idea that this is a set of rules that certain perfect people can follow, rather than a relationship where one party (the human) is an imperfect and struggling soul who can only be judged by God.

I would bet that someone here could recommend a real Christian counselor wherever you live who doesn't "play God". I hate to see anyone seriously mean what you said.

<small>[ January 09, 2003, 03:46 PM: Message edited by: Committedhusb ]</small>

Jeannie2,

This next bit ought to mean something coming from me since I've sounded like the hardliner in this thread....

Committedhusb makes a very good point

Thank you, baba2. I read it and felt compelled to email it to my H. I will let you know if there is any response.

Comittedhusb:

I shared something with a Christian volunteer at my church's community "aid" center that I go to periodically. He looked around and looked back at me and said, "You're lucky you were sent over to talk to me. Any of the other volunteers probably would have asked you to leave because what you are telling me is not acceptable for Christians."

Please do not press me on this issue. I am just concerned about being judged, and I understand and agree that a "true" Christian would not do this, but we are all of the flesh, and there are many idealistic and "holier than thou" Christians out there. I have had my worst personal relationship "catastrophes" with people of my congregation (in another city). NO JOKE!!!

ANYWAY, thank you as well to ilmf, for posting periodically. I understand your point of view, too.

At this point, I am in a waiting game. As far as I know, my H is planning to leave within a month, but then he alternates talking about that with talking about other things. (He is very involved in a business that he manages and does all the PR, marketing, accounting, computer stuff, etc., and instructs as well.) His boss is totally dependent on him, and he has a lot of guilt when he talks about abandonding his boss. (WHAT ABOUT ME???!!!)

Jeannie2:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I shared something with a Christian volunteer at my church's community "aid" center that I go to periodically. He looked around and looked back at me and said, "You're lucky you were sent over to talk to me. Any of the other volunteers probably would have asked you to leave because what you are telling me is not acceptable for Christians." </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">There are charlatans in every field, of course, and one must be careful (there are plenty of cases where "counselors", both Christian and secular, have taken advantage of clients). But I think the issue here was that you talked to a "Christian volunteer"- that can be any old person, not a professional. A real pro observes professional confidentiality.

Jeannie, I think that you should go and get acquainted with some of the women here whe frequent the women's Bible study bulletin board. Most of them have been through their own marriage challenges, they have spiritual insight, and a loving, discerning, but not judging attitude.

You could get to know them off-line after a reasonable period of anonymous (and the anonymity is the critical safety factor right now) participation to build up trust, and someone like Karenna could talk to you on several fronts (she's had broken marriages and is also an attorney, as well as a Believer). The key reason i say this is that you clearly have more on your mind right now, and you are vulnerable as well. Some of the areas involved need to be discussed in a confined forum where males like me aren't anywhere near.

Commitedhusb,

Thank you. Unfortunately I have had a really negative experience trying to confide in other Christian women (who I met in mothers groups and married couples groups.)

In hindsight, maybe I should not have revealed my marital problems. Maybe I should have put on a front and pretended to have a perfect marriage like most of them did.

I am sorry, but two experiences, where Christian "friends" told me that they did not want to talk to me anymore (in very nasty and hurtful ways), put a very bitter taste in my mouth. Needless to say, I have a big trust issue with Christian women. I would almost prefer to talk to a male Christian counselor, but I know that is frowned upon. Talking to a secular counselor is very tricky because they aspect of God's healing is never mentioned, and without that, what is there???!!!

I may be way off base here Jeannie2, but if a secular counsellor can help you, isn't that God working to help you too?

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 08:14 AM: Message edited by: tgirl ]</small>

Jeannie

Just an observation -- I get the impression that you have made your mind up about many things re: your "situation". You're very receptive to any posts that reinforce your present mindset.

Clearly, none of us can understand all the circumstances of your situation. I'm glad that you have not submitted to the temptation for an affair. Speaking for myself only, if my spouse ever betrayed me to that degree, I would have a very, very difficult time respecting her or being intimate with her again. So continue to "stick to your guns" in that regard.

Usually there are two sides to any story. It is healthy to acknowledge and take responsibility for the actions we take to help create a situation. Hopefully, he will come around to acknowledging his before it's too late -- but, it sounds like your marriage is already there.

Again, best of luck.

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 09:28 AM: Message edited by: Keith101 ]</small>

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Committedhusb:
<strong>Jeannie2, what kind of thing would a legitimate and good Christian counselor, as opposed to a propagandist for a group of fundamentalists, "judge" you over? One of the greatest problems in the Body of Christ is the idea that this is a set of rules that certain perfect people can follow, rather than a relationship where one party (the human) is an imperfect and struggling soul who can only be judged by God.

I would bet that someone here could recommend a real Christian counselor wherever you live who doesn't "play God". I hate to see anyone seriously mean what you said.</strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally agree with CH (hey, and you don't find me saying that every day <img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" /> ). There are many Christians who get very, very caught up in judging others....kind of like the Pharisees in Jesus' day. There are other groups of Christians that believe less in judgement, and more in extending the love of Christ. IMHO, you need to hook up with the second kind...

Kathi

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">I totally agree with CH (hey, and you don't find me saying that every day). </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">As I try to stanch the flow of blood from the shiv wound....... virtue and perfection just aren't rewarded in this evil world <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" />

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Originally posted by Committedhusb:
<strong>[QUOTE]As I try to stanch the flow of blood from the shiv wound....... virtue and perfection just aren't rewarded in this evil world <img border="0" title="" alt="[Confused]" src="images/icons/confused.gif" /> <img border="0" title="" alt="[Big Grin]" src="images/icons/grin.gif" /> </strong></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="Verdana, Arial">Oh, buck up! Here's a band-aid for ya...

<img border="0" title="" alt="[Wink]" src="images/icons/wink.gif" />

I myself have never found a professional Christian counselor who helped me. The idea of Christian counselors addressing the spiritual issues is wonderful but many of them cannot address the "worldly" issues. For example, had I not experianced bondage myself, I might have been shocked at even hearing about it. I may even reject the words. Certainly I could not understand it at all. So how could I give advice on it. My advice might be simply to quit sinning and stop doing it. This advice would have been very simplistic and not addressing the deeper issues. The counseling would not help anyone who was not at the same place spiritually as the counselor.

When I was a Christian and a virgin at 27, I was shocked at many many things in our evil world. There is no way I could even admit these things existed like porn and perversions. I did not even know about anal sex until years later when I read about it.

Many Christians do not educate themselves about porn, perversions, etc. because to learn about these things is evil to them. So they stay sheltered and therefore can be good counselors to people who have not "touched evil things". But that is it.

Perhaps the world has changed. Maybe Christians will venture out into the world of porn, drugs, sex, rock and roll, heavy drinking, addictions etc. Or maybe when the person was "unsaved" they could have had experiances with this stuff but now they have given it all up. But can still relate with it. Perhaps there are some Christian counselors who really understand and can relate. I have not been to them. But I have not been to them all!

I understand where Jeannie is coming from. She does not want to open herself up to people who do not understand, cannot understand and actually reject in their minds what she says and feels. Going to counselors like this would be worse than no counselor at all. I have paid big bucks to Christian counselors who told me to simply quit sinning and pray. Wow. That helped alot.

I ended up going to several secular counselors and though they did not delve into the spiritual issues, I needed more help with the "emotional issues" anyway and to develop a plan of expressing my pain, allowing it to be healed, and getting past it so I could function in life again! These counselors helped me with this. Though our "spirit" is very close to our "emotional center" in our being, both can be taken care of. It seems like as my emotional life became progressively healed by the counseling and the anti-depressants I was on, my spiritual life followed and was revived because it was now unblocked by eliminating pain in the emotional area. Sometimes, I would bring up God in the counseling because he is such in important a part of my life. Since God's truths about love, etc. are so universal, the counselors, secular as they were, often understood me. And I could freely go to God himself for more "spiritual" healing. I knew that he would take care of "that end of the healing process".

And who says you cannot pray all through the months of counseling, pray for the counselor that he can do his or her work, and before and
after the sessions. Every time I broke down in the counselors office, and was aware of some new hurt trying to come up, I would leave after the session, go in the car, thank God for helping me, thank him for revealing that issue, tell him I loved him, and asked for his deep healing on that "hurt" area.

NO ONE can stop you from praying and thanking God.

So I feel I got the best of both worlds, a counselor who accepted me and understood me and could truly help and God's healing touch. What more could we want!

God knows your heart, he will give you the leading to find a good counselor. Use your brain in picking one or try several before you pick one. Secular or otherwise. After all, we don't specifically go to Christian doctors do we? What if the best brain surgeon you could get was not a Christian? Would that stop you for using him? That would be extremely limiting. NO, we go to whoever can do the best job! Not whoever seems like the the "best Christian".

When I go to a Dr. or dentist I pray God will lead the Dr's hands in healing me. You could do this same thing with any counselor you choose.

Good Luck honey!

<small>[ January 10, 2003, 10:35 AM: Message edited by: baba2 ]</small>

I think that there are good Christian counselors, maybe even most, but youm have to look to find the right ones, and it is quite possible to search successfully.

I also would give one small cheer of assent to baba's comments in that, sadly, I think that the evangelical churches are almost guilty of malpractice in the area of handling almost everything about sex, from marriage, to adultery, to incest, to "perversion" (this is definition-dependent), to porn, to whatever. There is a lot of "this is a spiritual experience, a holy sacrament", baloney, sex is fun, and supposed to be a special, frequent, regular recreation, and connection for the two parties in a healthy marriage.

I guarantee that if you think that sex is a procreative duty or a spiritual experience, you are headed for disaster. The Bible doesn't treat it that way at all. Jacob "sported" with his wife Rachel, and they weren't playing horseshoes. Paul, the ascetic, said "I wish you were all like me and didn't care much, but you aren't, so get married and 'do it' so you won't burn with lust." Baba's right about how twisted up so many of the churches are in this area.