Point well taken about the ethics professor... and it made me laugh the way you described it. He is more than an ethics professor, though... just was the best way for me to describe him.

He has been a very respected family friend for years. His sister has been through D after her husband had an A, and his son is going through a separation with his W. He has built himself a strong M, and I respect his knowledge on relationships and ethics.

As to returning to our Church and the events that can be skipped... this is already happening. I missed going to a production my brother was in charge of and my nephew and nieces were in... it was a dinner theatre they did at the church. I was feeling very guilty not supporting them after all their hard work... but I was not going to risk being there with the OM. My brother doesn't know about the A and I believe he was upset with me. The only church events I will consider is being with family at Thanksgiving, Christmas and Easter. I feel I have to risk this.

I agree the NC letter will not stop her from seeing him... which is exactly what the MC said. So, for me to just insist upon the letter and she write it to appease me does not prove anything. She needs to write it because she wants to... which is essentially my point with most everything else. She has to have NC because she wants to. She has to be trustworthy because she wants to. If I just manipulate the situation, then it is not a M I want to be in.
Yes, I know that you don't put a bottle in front of an alchaholic... but it is still will power, personal desire, and divine strength that enables the alchaholic to choose not to drink. It is a choice each day for them not to drink and if they want to drink, they will find a way whether the bottle is in front of them or not.
I want my W to choose each day to not "drink" again through her own personal desire... that is the M I want... one in which she chooses to be with me... not because I am hiding the other options from her. If she is so inclined, she will find a way.
Maybe I'm a little too idealistic, but that is the M I want... and will risk and sacrifice for it. I won't accept just a 6 or 8 out of 10 ... I want to strive for a 10 out of 10 M.

As to the snooping, I see it as a betrayal to myself more so than to my W. I guess it is ok to shoot a burglar in self defence while they are in your home, but aftwerwards, is it ok to keep shooting everyone that comes to the door because you are afraid they are going to rob you? I don't feel bad about checking the email when I was sure something was wrong. But now that I believe there is NC, to keep checking does not seem right to me. I do believe that there should be total honesty in a M and that there shouldn't be secrets to keep... but if I am sneaking around to check on these after the fact, I believe I am betraying my own integrity and my own healing. How I am dealing with this is working on my ability to be honest and ask the tough questions rather than holding everything inside. I don't believe that snooping is how you rebuild damaged trust. How you rebuild is by giving a little trust and if it is not broken, you can give more.

As to exposure to the OMW. She is not walking around the fool because nobody at the church knows with the exception of the OM. Maybe I do have the sense of a goose... but the choice between telling her... which others have said is not my place... and protecting my W... irregardless of the fact that it was my W who put herself in this position... is still something I am struggling with. Like I said before, I don't disagree, but once I do it I can't take it back... so I need to fully agree.

Thanks for your comments... you really do know this stuff... I'm just a little stubborn and idealistic... maybe I am one of the whiners you are referring to.

Shaden

I agree with Melody - doesn't take an ethics expert to realize that a wife should know when her husband has been risking her life and health by having an affair.

Also I would expose at church. My WH was asked to no longer attend our church where he has been a member for 20 years, until he met with the pastors and resolved the affair issue. He declined, and joined a different church. But at least I can continue going without seeing the OW.

It is not will power at all, we recognize that we have NO POWER over alcohol at all, which is why we do not ever put ourselves in precarious situations where we might slip. A newly recovered alcoholic is a fool to test his "strength" because he has none. If he were strong, he wouldn't be an alcoholic in the first place. Putting oneself in these situations does not make us strong, but keeps our mind on the source of the addiction - that keeps us WEAK. That interferes with recovery and greatly increases the risk of a relapse.


But you aren't shooting at all. You are guarding the perimeter because you know there is a burglar in the neighborhood. Sure, he says he has changed his ways, but you would be a fool to rely upon the word of a liar and give up your only means of protection just because he "says" he won't rob you anymore. He must PROVE his trustworthiness by demonstrating a pattern of trustworthiness.

Your W has not done this. Nor does affording trst to an untrustworthy person cause them to magically become trustworthy. If this were true we could just give all bank robbers the keys to the bank and let them out. In fact, it does the opposite, it encourages them to continue doing wrong when they know their target is no longer on guard.


I know everyone at church doesn't know and that is not my point. My point is that everyone involved knows except the victim. And she is being allowed to innocently associate with her victimizers in complete ignorance. It is very doubtful that she would want to associate with your W if she knew what she had done to her. This is cruel and inhuman punishment that she will deeply resent.

And she should resent it, Shaden.

You have become an accessory to the crime by helping them hide their crime from the victim. You knowingly allow your W to parade around her victim not caring that she doesn't know. She will - and should - deeply resent that you allowed her to be friendly to your W like a fool when she should be protecting herself from both of you.

Even if you don't agree with a word I said, please have the decency to not let your W go around the OMW. She does not deserve to be treated like a fool. It is bad enough that no one will tell her she has been victimized, but it is cruelly compounding the crime to have her victimizer around her while she is being wrongfully and cruelly kept ignorant about facts about HER OWN LIFE.

Also, my discussion with the "ethics professor" is also about what to do... how to expose, who else should know, should we ever go back to the church after (he also attends that church), what will be the end results, etc.

I am also dealing with the fact that I told my W I wouldn't expose. Yes, I've heard people say on this post "Why would I ever do that?" ... but the fact is I did. If I expose without discussing with her, then I am betraying her trust. I do not want to rebuild on sand. To say that one betrayal is worse than the other goes against a fundamental belief of mine that every sin is equal in God's eyes. The only difference is one may have greater consequences to man than another.

As my W is maintaining NC, I do believe I have the time to ensure I get this right.

My management style at work has caused some problems for me, but in the end, it has helped me get to where I'm at and stayed for 17 years... that style is to first try and achieve "Buy-in" before hard decisions or changes are implemented. It generally takes a little longer but gets better results. I know you won't agree, but as I said before, not all situations are alike. The process works for the greater proportion of situations, but not all.

Shaden... I'd change my name to HardHead... but that's already taken <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Melody.

I do agree with alot of what you've said...including the fact the OMW should know (maybe I am just spineless)... but I am not going to church to be "around her". I have no idea whether they will be at church that day. I am going to be with my and my W's family. Why is it solely our responsibility to leave the church... the OM could leave with his family?

The reason this is so difficult is that the OM is the nephew of my W's stepfather (deceased). My MIL went through ****** with gaining acceptance and forgiveness after leaving her M to be with her second husband, even though her 1st H had 3 or more A's prior and treated her like crap. This is going to do huge damage to a lot of people... yes my W should have thought of that before she got herself into it. I'm just trying to see how we can minimize the damage. BUT (there's that word again) it will come out and the OMW will be told. I'm just taking more time to prepare the battleplan because I believe I can.

Shaden

Shaden, the only thing worse than making a bad promise is keeping a bad promise. There is no virtue in keeping a bad promise that you should have never made. You simply can't draw a moral equivalence between breaking a foolish promise and committing adultery. The latter truly is a betrayal, the former is not. Adultery is wrong and so is helping hide adultery from its victims.

Shaden --
Lets use a business example for you then...
When you are faced with making a major decision -- would you like to do it with all of the facts -- or just those facts that others dedide that you should know?

I was allowed to make MAJOR life changing decisions without all of the facts, because my XH thought he had the right to keep his secret from me.

I cannot express to you adequately the amount of anger and resentment I feel for the loss of years and choices I could have done differently if I had the gift of the TRUTH.

She simply deserves to know. I pray that there is someone with the decency to give her the facts regarding her LIFE. Please be that person.

Why would the OM family leave if the W doesn't even know there is a problem? Why would she leave, Shaden? Maybe she would leave if she knew the truth about her own life. But how can she make such a decision if SHE DOESN'T HAVE THE FACTS ABOUT HER OWN LIFE? They are being wrongfully and cruelly withheld from her. Yes, I do understand this is cruel without having consulted a pastor. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

Further, you are very LUCKY to be the one victim who DOES HAVE THE FACTS and who knows that it is pure folly to continue contact of any kind with the OM.[even though you don't believe it] At least you have the capability of making an informed decision. Your W's other victim does not.

Maybe it's not about what I know to be right or wrong... maybe it's just whether or not I have the guts to risk my W's anger when things seem to be progressing so well.

I'll think some more on this and you'll know my answer by whether or not I return to the site.

If I can't take the advice being given to me, when it makes absolutely perfect sense, then I have no business wasting everyone's time. If I get the spine, I'll be back to let you know.

Thanks, everyone. I pray that things will work out in your own road to recovery.

And thanks, especially, Melody. You've kept at me when you could have gone on to giving your excellent advice to someone who was more willing to hear.

Shaden

Shaden, thanks for being honest about it, I appreciate that. But please do not leave. I have stated my position and there is no need to say anymore. I know your heart is in the right place; I know you are good person and will do the right thing in the end. Don't you dare go anywhere!

Shaden,

I think you are missing the point of what Mel, Lexxxy, and others are saying. OM's W should know. She should not have to deal with your W unless she decides to AFTER KNOWING. Ok, we all agree on this right?

What you are missing is that YOU can have this discussion with your W. You see if all were right in the world, and I understand that it is not, it is OM that should tell his W. Failing that the person that should explain "how the cow ate the cabbage" is your W along with a deep and profound apology. Neither of them have stepped up to this YET.

There are a variety of ways to handle this. One is step is clearly to talk to your W about how unfair it is that Om's W does not know. Ask her how she would feel if YOU had the affair and your OW was around her making happy faces?

As for the actual telling, I would be inclined to explain to OM, that you or your W will tell his W by (some date). If he is smart he will have already told her, but that you will be having a discussion with her to make sure she understands the affair, and how you and your W are handling it.

Perhaps some "friendly" persuasion of the OM would solve this issue. But, it is a moral issue, and it is something you need to discuss with your W. That is the honesty part you need to do. IF she does not agree, you have at least alerted her, gotten opinions and decided on a course of action.

My point is there are many ways to address this, but given that you seem to be in a close knit situation with your family, her family, and OM's family the truth must come out. Here is why. There is NO REASON to lose your brother over this, or anyone in your family. He was disappointed you did not support his efforts in the church, and given that he does not know what is going on he can only assume you are not supportive.

IF it becomes safe for you to return to your church, you won't have to tell your brother or the rest of the family ( I believe I recall correctly that your MIL knows), but to do this OM's W needs to know. She can watch her H, while you watch your W.

There are much deeper ramifications here, but there is also varying ways to do this and anyway should be done with concern for OM's W, and your W. I don't personally give a flip about OM and I suspect neither do you.

Please think about this.

God Bless,

JL

PS: Lexxxy is so right, OM's W deserves to be able to make the choices you have had the luxury to make.

OK,

I didn't quite leave the site... I've been reading a little.

My W gave me the NC letter yesterday, but I haven't had a chance to give it ot OM.

We did go to church this morning for Thanksgiving (Canada)... we got there a couple minutes late and sat in the very back. The OM was on the platform singing with the worship team we used to be involved in when we got there. It wasn't as hard for me as I thought, probably because my W kept hold of my hand.

At the end of church, I asked W if we should leave right away or stay around... we stayed and ended up being the last to leave... everyone came to greet us... with the exception, thankfully, of OM. This was difficult and W was emotional.

Hard part was OMW greeted us both.

When we got home, I talked to MIL. Told her I was struggling with not telling OMW... that I realized it would affect a lot of people... but I felt I was choosing my M over what I felt was morally right. She said she understood and that I would have to choose what was best. One hurdle overwith.

Spoke to W. Told her the hardest part was OMW greeting us. I told her this is not right and I feel it is right she knows. She commented she wished that things could be back the way they were and that she could go to the women's bible study (at OMW's house). I said this was wrong. She knows.

We noticed OM had taken off his uniform (Salvation Army church... for those that don't know, uniform is used by some as a witness) and my MIL said that she can read the torture on his face... he is battling his own conscience and demons.

The "ethics professor" (still not sure why I call him that... I guess it sounded better) was there, said he had received my emails and will call me this week.

Last night, W had a terrible night of guilt, depression, remorse. She was so upset at how she has "ruined our lives". We talked and comforted each other. I told her more of what I needed... I said that I know she loves me but I want to feel that she admires me, respects me, and that I'm special to her. She did say that she admires me and especially how I am coping with all of this. I gave her some examples of what would help... she said that now if she does it, I'll just believe she's doing it because I said so.. not because she wanted to. I told her there is nothing wrong with us telling each other what we need or want. Dr. Phil would tell us to get a grip if he heard us saying that we had to read each other's minds and guess what they want and need.

Today was also a good day... she was very close.

Please no lectures about not yet telling OMW... I'm getting there soon... but I'm also praying that OM will tell her even before I can... it will be better for both of them to heal if she finds out from him. I know the responses will be that OM doesn't have a reason to tell her, etc, etc.... but I also have some faith in prayer. Either way, I believe it will be done soon.

When I spoke to W about telling OMW, I explained that OMW will be that much more angry and longer time to recover because of days like today... with us being there and she not knowing it. I also can't fathom the fact that OMW couldn't see it... I was thinking something was wrong right from the start.

I'm probably one of the few on here that doesn't hate the OM. I can't stand the sight of him right now, and probably would have "decked him" if he had come to talk to W today. But I can also very easily imagine many men falling for My W. I do hope that he and his W will have the chance to recover. I used to feel intimidated by the OM... he was one of two people that really made me feel small (it makes it harder for me that W chose him... but that's another story)... but now the intimadation is gone... I just feel pity and disgust.

Shaden

Shaden,

Keep talking to your W about this. As we spoke earlier, there are options for OM's W finding out and you are right the best is from OM. It sounds as if the reality of the world is coming to your W, and with that will be a change in attitude. Your response so far seems to be right on.

You may not realize this but your situation is an OPPORTUNITY for both of you, to show love, care, concern and a new level of openness to one another. Don't let this OPPORTUNITY slide.

Hang in there I have a feeling a lot of this is about to be resolved.

God Bless,

JL

Thanks, Just Learning.

We'll see how this week goes. W and I had an excellent evening last night.

Even if I was ready, I wouldn't have told OMW this weekend anyway, with it being Thanksgiving. I wouldn't have wanted to ruin the weekend for either family.

I agree about the opportunity. Not that I would ever want for us to learn the lessons we are learning through an A... but I can see the future being much better than it ever was before.

I shared with my W that I think because I moved around so much as a child, I really never learned to open up to people... I was always giving them a good shell of myself. I would begin to make friends and would move and have to start all over. Just one friend who I was with all the time between the important ages of 10-15 do I think back and know that we were very close... but then we were moved again. I barely dated any girls (atleast, nothing serious) prior to my W, so I didn't have a chance to learn anything about the opposite sex. Now I'm starting to open up and be honest about who I am and what I'm thinking or feeling.

Shaden

Just Learning,

I had another conversation with my W this morning. We talked about church last Sunday and how good it felt to be so welcomed by everyone. I said that going back to the church was not a problem for me, I could see myself getting to a place emotionally that it would be ok even to be in contact with OM myself. The issue for me is the affects of the addiction. What if we went on a low point again in our M or if she was struggling personally, would she want to run back to OM who brought her happiness when she was low before... she would forget the pain it also brings.

I told her that I would not be willing if OMW does not know. She must know and if forgiveness happens, then we could consider... but not without that exposure. I talked about the rest of the congregation knowing, and my belief is that most of them would support us in our rebuilding. It would be gossip for a couple of months and then old news. The difference in her Mom's experience was that both marriages broke up... and the partner for her was a church minister... the congregation took a lot longer to get over it. I think my W is afraid that people will rehash her Mom's mistakes and talk about "like mother, like daughter". She doesn't want her Mom to go through more hurt. But if we are rebuilding, the response from most of the congregation should be supportive. The OM, OMW and their families, on the other hand, I cannot say how they will react... but God can perform miracles.

Even if everyone forgives, there is still the issue of the addicion. So continued involvement at that church is probably not an option. The discussion of telling OMW, though is moving forward. Her answer was to let her get through her job crisis first (which I discussed in earlier posts)... this could be a delay tactic, but it is an improvement over anger or negative responses and tells me that she is working it through in her own mind.

Shaden

After several good days, I guess I was seeing things a little differently last night and today and chose to "push the envelope".

My W has still been waffling in "taker city" IMO. She has been very affectionate and good to be around as long as I am giving and not discussing the A.

Last night I asked a "simple" question about the A and she became angry and broke off our night out... wanted to go home right away. This morning I asked to talk to her... to make a long story short... I said that I am willing to do anything to rebuild our M together and go through all the hard times, but I am not willing to accept a M that is based on secrecy and lies and built on sand.

She still believes it is her right to not tell me any details about the A. I agreed with her... it is her right... but it is my right to not want a M like that. This morning I put a line in the sand... said I would be separating if that is the type of M she is going to have. She said she would think about it but couldn't answer right away.

I also called my parents today and finally told them what was going on. I didn't before trying to "protect" my W. I should have talked to them from the start... my father spent his career as a minister and social worker... not a therapist, but an expert in dealing with addictions. He had some good advice and insight on my W.

My next step will be to let my W know that I will be telling the OMW. I have finally decided that my M will not become great unless I stop allowing my W to dictate the recovery only on her terms.

Shaden

Good for you. I would also suggest you contact the Harleys or Jennifer for expert guidance.

By the way, do not tell your wife that you are going to tell OMW. That will be an excuse for her to contact OM and for them to prepare a response to your actions before you do it. Tell WW after you've told OMW. You have nothing to gain by warning WW beforehand.

Thanks for the response, UVA.

My W is in NC and has been since July. I do believe that is not the problem. In speaking to my father... who I know is not the expert on A's, but is a minister, he agreed that I don't necessarily need to wait for my W's agreement, which I was doing... but that I should let her know my intentions ahead of time. If the A was still ongoing, I would expose without warning. Now I am trying to rebuild and this should be done with trust and integrity.

If, on the small chance, she does warn OM... I do have proof.

I have been in MC, but am doubting the advice a little from her. I see her points... eg. on the point of my W "telling all"... she said that my W does not have to... it is her right to keep it secret if she wants... and I cannot force her to tell me... but she did say in the interest of building trust, it would be positive. She is going on the notion that my W needs to want to be in the M and to recover... it can't be from duty or any other reason.... which I agree... but several drastic personality or behavioral changes need to take place on both our parts which would indicate that more guidance is needed.

Shaden