Fair enough.

We spoke again this evening.

Even after what I said about wanting to rebuild and the importance of sharing... she is still sticking to the fact that she has the right to maintain secrets and that some things just should not be shared.

I said that is not good enough for me... she has been the taker for years and it looks like it is not going to change.

I told her it was over.

Do I want it to be over... of course not. But I don't know what else to do. She isn't willing to change and I can't live like I was before. Her family has a history of secrets and lies and affairs... she is such a beautiful person and cares about her family so much... that is her Mom and sisters and sons... but she will always place me far down the list behind everyone else in her life. That is no longer good enough for me.

Shaden

Shaden,

I'm new to this and by no means an expert, but I beg of you: please try to carefully consider what you say to your W. These things take time. Do not expect things to change overnight. If you're going to make a huge statement like telling her "it's over," please run the idea by the more experienced people on this site. Everything that you're feeling is completely justified, but if you want to rebuild your marriage, try not to immediately act upon your gut reactions.

I know what you're going through is extremely difficult, and everyone here wants to help and support you. Let everyone help you. Have you tried calling the MB phone counseling? I called for the first time last week, even though I can't afford it. It was worth every penny, and I have another appointment this week. Steve (and I'm sure Jennifer) has a remarkable way of preparing you for what to expect so you don't have to make decisions without carefully considering the consequences.

And note, I'm not saying with certainty that what you said was wrong. I just think that if you don't want it to be over, you should get some good advice about what it means for you to tell her "it's over."

Best wishes.

OK...

Now that I've drawn a line in the sand and said what one of my boundaries are... which I think is a common sense boundary... that I need to have a marriage without secrecy and lies... and now that I've said that if this is not going to happen, the marriage is over... what do I do?

My W basically drew her own line last night when she said that she stands by what she said earlier... that there are things that just aren't meant to be said, and that it is her right to keep these things hidden from me.

Is there any way to come back from this without eroding my boundaries or once again losing my own self-esteem to "give" to my W? I realize that I probably should have waited longer before making such a pronouncement... but how long do you wait for something so important?... 6 months? 1 year? 6 years? the rest of my life?

My thoughts are that I just wait for a while and don't bring it up again. Is there any better suggestions out there?

Last night was the first night since DDay that my W did not sleep in our bed with me. She spent the day and evening with her Mom... probably talking about this issue, and I am sure, getting the worst advice possible. Her Mom has lived her life with secrets... having atleast 2 PA's and other EA's... not telling my W until about 5 years ago that her father was not her biological father... and she only told that because my W found out through another source. She hasn't told her older daughter that she is just a half-sister to my W and her twin. The history says that secrets and lies are ok.

I don't want to end my M, but how can a M be rebuilt under these standards?

On another note... and MelodyLane, if you're out there... I have finally decided 100% to tell OMW... I can't keep allowing these secrets to keep going... but do I do it now while things are at their worst... probably making this situation unrecoverable? Or do I give this first problem a chance to simmer down before I rekindle with the new one? I'm not sure which is the worst path... but they probably will have the same result... that my M is over.

Shaden

Shaden, good job on deciding to tell the OMW. There will never be an ideal time to tell the OMW as your W would likely never be happy about it. The sooner the better, though. There is just no way to make it palatable for her. I don't believe for a minute that telling your W's victim will make your marriage unrecoverable. [there are other things here that threaten to do that] I would tell her today and get it over with, Shaden, so you can move forward.

What I do think will make your marriage unrecoverable are her secrets. You did the right thing in expressing your boundaries to her about this. She needs to know exactly how you feel. As long as she has secrets with the OM to which you are not privy, it will be impossible to ever rebuild trust. Trust is essential to recovery. Your marriage will not recover as long as she keeps secrets from you about your own life.

And yes, her affair is information about your life too; this is your marriage. You have a right to know the facts about your life. I think you did good in planting that seed. Just back off and give her a chance to digest it. Then approach her again.

While you think that telling the OMW will make your marriage unrecoverable, I suspect it is the opposite. Her desire to keep her affair "secret" from you and the OMW tells me she is not very remorseful and is still holding out hope for future contact with the OM. Telling the OMW will quickly dash that hope, if it does in fact, exist.

Shaden, it might be helpful to print out this letter for her:

Joseph's Letter

"To Whomever,

"I know you are feeling the pain of guilt and confusion. I understand that you wish all this never happened and that you wish it would just go away. I can even believe that you truly love me and that your indiscretion hurts you emotionally much the same way it hurts me. I understand your apprehension to me discovering little by little, everything that led up to your indiscretion, everything that happened that night, and everything that happened afterwards. I understand. No one wants to have a mistake or misjudgment thrown in his or her face repeatedly. No one wants to be forced to "look" at the thing that caused all their pain over and over again. I can actually see, that through your eyes, you are viewing this whole thing as something that just needs to go away, something that is over, that he/she doesn't mean anything to you, so why is it such a big issue? I can understand you wondering why I torture myself with this continuously, and thinking, doesn't he/she know by now that I love him/her? I can see how you can feel this way and how frustrating it must be. But for the remainder of this letter I'm going to ask you to view my reality through my eyes.

"You were there. There is no detail left out from your point of view. Like a puzzle, you have all the pieces and you are able to reconstruct them and be able to understand the whole picture, the whole message, or the whole meaning. You know exactly what that picture is and what it means to you and if it can effect your life and whether or not it continues to stir your feelings. You have the pieces, the tools, and the knowledge. You can move through your life with 100% of the picture you compiled. If you have any doubts, then at least you're carrying all the information in your mind and you can use it to derive conclusions or answers to your doubts or question. You carry all the "STUFF" to figure out OUR reality. There isn't really any information, or pieces to the puzzle that you don't have.

"Now let's enter my reality. Let's both agree that this affects our lives equally. The outcome no matter what it is well affect us both. Our future and our present circumstances are every bit as important to me as it is to you. So, why then is it okay for me to be left in the dark? Do I not deserve to know as much about the night that nearly destroyed our relationship as you do? Just like you, I am also able to discern the meaning of certain particulars and innuendoes of that night and just like you, I deserve to be given the opportunity to understand what nearly brought our relationship down. To assume that I can move forward and accept everything at face value is unrealistic and unless we stop thinking unrealistically I doubt our lives well ever "feel" complete. You have given me a puzzle. It is a 1000 piece puzzle and 400 random pieces are missing. You expect me to assemble the puzzle without the benefit of looking at the picture on the box. You expect me to be able to discern what I am looking at and to appreciate it in the same context as you. You want me to be as comfortable with what I see in the picture as you are. When I ask if there was a tree in such and such area of the picture you tell me don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask whether there were any animals in my puzzle you say don't worry about it, it's not important. When I ask if there was a lake in that big empty spot in my puzzle you say, what's the difference, it's not important. Then later when I'm expected to "understand" the picture in my puzzle you fail to understand my disorientation and confusion. You expect me to feel the same way about the picture as you do but deny me the same view as you. When I express this problem you feel compelled to admonish me for not understanding it, for not seeing it the way you see it. You wonder why I can't just accept whatever you chose to describe to me about the picture and then be able to feel the same way you feel about it.

"So, you want me to be okay with everything. You think you deserve to know and I deserve to wonder. You may honestly feel that the whole picture, everything that happened is insignificant because in your heart you know it was a mistake and wish it never happened. But how can I know that? Faith? Because you told me so? Would you have faith if the tables were turned? Don't you understand that I want to believe you completely? But how can I? I can never know what is truly in your mind and heart. I can only observe you actions, and what information I have acquired and slowly, over time rebuild my faith in your feelings. I truly wish it were easier.

"So, there it is, as best as I can put it. That is why I ask questions. That is where my need to know is derived from. And that is why it is unfair for you to think that we can effectively move forward and unfair for you to accuse me of dwelling on the past. My need to know stems from my desire to hold our world together. It doesn't come from jealousy, it doesn't come from spitefulness, and it doesn't come from a desire to make you suffer. It comes from the fact that I love you. Why else would I put myself through this? Wouldn't it be easier for me to walk away? Wouldn't it be easier to consider our relationship a bad mistake in my life and to move on to better horizons? Of course it would, but I can't and the reason I can't is because I love you and that reason in itself makes all the difference in the world."

(end of Joseph's Letter)

Thanks for responding, MelodyLane.

I probably should have taken your advice sooner and maybe could be further along now... but no point in dwelling on past mistakes... except, I guess, dwelling on my W's A... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

I did ask her yesterday if she thought about now or in the future getting back together with OM... She of course said "No... that it was wrong." But I said that one reason why she would not want to tell me the details is that she is trying to keep her fantasy world of the A intact in her mind... that this is dangerous because of the addiction... one call from him and the A is back on. I did plant this idea in her head to think about. I thought she was mostly past the fog... but I guess just doing a good job of covering up and conforming to the situation... doing the minimum necessary to appear like she is back in the M. As long as she doesn't have to do any of the hard work.

As for the Joseph's letter... I did give this to her 3 or 4 weeks ago when we first had this discussion. It had no effect except to make her angry. She digs her heels in if she thinks I'm "pushing" her to any kind of decision. She feels I am manipulating her. I guess working to save my M is a manipulation.

Oh, and by the way, the "ethics professor" was a lost cause. He stopped me on the Sunday I went to the church to say he got my emails and would get back to me. It's been about 3 weeks with no response... I guess he's too busy dealing with real issues. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/mad.gif" alt="" />

Shaden

My wife changed her email password again this morning... ok, I've been had. She could have stood in front of me with a gun to my head and I still would have tried to believe in her.

Shaden

I just found out that MIL was apparently abused as a child. I don't think my W knows this, or if she does, she has never shared it with me. I got it 2nd hand but from a very good source... someone who wouldn't be sharing it just to gossip and someone who would know certain details of family history.

MIL was abused and huge history in her family of the same. There is a huge history of abuse and depression in her father's family... including her father.

Also her step-father abused other kids... I know of one boy (now an adult) for sure.

I have asked in the past my W if she was ever abused... she said no... not physically or sexually... just verbally.

I know that sometimes abuse can be hidden so deep that a person doesn't even remember. Is there anything I should do or let time figure this one out?

Shaden

"My wife changed her email password again this morning."

Smells like a rat. Not good. Do you have a keylogger?

Expose to OMW ASAP!

I have spoken to friend of OMW, who is a pastor. She said that she suspected a possible A. We talked for a while... she had to run to lead a chapel service, but will call me back to decide on exposing to OMW.

Following is an email my W sent to me this morning after I had sent her a link talking about the value of sharing information for healing.

"I've read the link, I understand it, and I will think about it. I can't explain to you what happens to my body when I feel pressure to talk about this. I understand every day how difficult you must be finding this, I do. I also understand that you need time for healing. It was never my intent to sweep it under the carpet...we just differ in our opinion of what is necessary to share. I don't understand why this is being pushed so hard right before the move. I don't know what you expect, (Shaden), but giving details is not something I'm ever going to ok with. I will be able to talk about the reasons why etc., but I didn't feel it had to be during my termination from my job and moving 5 people into two places. I'm here. I've said that I wanted to stay and work things out, but I feel cornered, badgered and I'm tired of hearing how selfish I am. Maybe I'm not handling everything right, but I'm doing the best I can under the circumstances. I realize that the marriage takes two and I haven't done enough to help you heal at this point. I'm sorry that you think I'm so selfish and that I've never given anything to this marriage. I'm sorry about everything."

Can you read anything into this... am I being played? or is she just struggling with her own guilt and emotions?

Shaden

With me drawing a line in the sand, I figured 1 of 4 things would happen...

1) She would appreciate the confidence and would respond favorably. She was attracted ot OM because of his confidence. Conflict avoidance has been a problem with our M. So my confrontation is unusual to her. (I need practice) I guess she wants confidence but also wants things to be how they were... me always giving into what she wants. typical cake eating?

2) She would avoid and delay. Give enough to appease but not really agree.

3) She would call my bluff and see if I was serious... which I am.

4) She was looking for a way out of the M and I just gave her one in which she didn't have to make the choice.

The email she sent makes me wonder if she was at #3. She was defensive and testing my resolve, and today's email (previous post) looks to be a softening of her own stance.

Any thoughts?

Shaden

Well, I'm not one of the experts, but here are my thoughts.

1. Tell your wife that it was doing things HER way that let things get to the point where she was ABLE to have her affair. If she wants to rebuild your marriage, then she needs to rebuild your trust in her. That means that she will HAVE TO share things with you that may make her uncomfortable at first...but it's the ONLY way that your marriage stands a chance. Make it clear to her that if she continues to have secrets OF ANY KIND, that it will be impossible for you to regain your trust in her that she WILL do what's right for your marriage.

2. You've made this a clear boundary...so do NOT change it. If she refuses to meet your requirement, then take appropriate action. In this case, you've told her clearly that you cannot rebuild your marriage based on secrecy...so if she refuses to work with you on it, begin taking your next actions in dissolving your marriage...let her know that you don't WANT to do this, but you can't live married in a situation where your spouse chooses secrets over your marriage.

3. Realize that if you DO have to start a D type scenario, it's still not the point where things are irreperable. It was when I made it clear to my wife that I was considering those steps myself that she started to come out of her fog.

4. Make it clear to her that you're willing to live by the rules you've outlined. Make it clear to her that even if her mother's marriage isn't like that, it doesn't mean that most marriages are full of secrets. On the contrary, the GOOD marriages have NO secrets...or trust issues because of that. Let her know that what you've both gone through has taught you that your marriage CAN'T have secrets.

Just my thoughts.

Shaden,

As you know...I am a fww...I am sorry that this is happening to you...IMO ...if you expose to the OMW it could very well be the catalyst for getting your wife into recovery or get her to come out of it at the very least.

About your w changing her email password...not good at all.
As far as keeping secrets...if that is what her family abides by well so be it...but, BUT...she is married to you not her family...
She may very well be stress laden at the moment as per her email to you...but she must think about you and she could use her family and all the other stuff as a crutch or excuse for as long as she deems necessary. Which in my opinion could just be buying her some more time. Time for what?....hmmm...possibly pretend to be in recovery...less questions she is asked by you the less she has to deny and the more chance of doing whatever it is she wishes to do.
As long as there are secrets...IMO..I think that means that the doorway to affairs has been left slightly ajar.


I understand that she may be balking at telling you things that may hurt you...but she needs to realize that you are an adult man and if you have questions then for better or worse...you want the answers. BTW...you inferred that she was attracted to the confidence in OM...listen...then there you have it...it takes GUTS to go and tell OMW and she should know that you have it within you to do so.

Maybe she would then take you very seriously

Take care,
Brandi <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

Thanks, Owl for your response.

I just spoke to my W. She was very upset and crying... saying she wants to work on the M, she just has too much on her right now. If I push her she will fall apart. She still doesn't understand why I would want to know details... I've said I don't know that I need to know details... I need to know that she is willing to be truthful and answer any questions that I do ask. I asked her what she is afraid of. She doesn't know... just thinks I'm trying to control her and corner her.
I didn't offer a lot of sympathy. In the past I probably would have ran from the office and went home to comfort her... this time I just listened and said I would be home when I could. I'm not sure if it's a good thing or a bad thing that for the first time her tears didn't really move me. Although the heartache in her voice was more than I've heard before... maybe she is realizing that I wasn't bluffing.

Shaden

Melody,

I spoke again to pastor. She is going to discuss with her husband and see what the best way to break open the secret is. Whether they talk to OM and offer him first chance to talk to his wife before I do, or if I should just talk to OMW.
They also are concerned about rebuilding OM's marriage... and I can't say that I'm not concerned for that as well... for OMW and for their children. I couldn't call myself a Christian and not feel that way. We want to find the best way for both marriages.
But it will finally happen this week. Thanks for your advice in the past, even when I wasn't quite ready to listen.

Shaden

Thanks, Brandi

I always enjoy getting advice from you. I'm not sure what the email change means, but there has been no evidence up til that time that NC had been broken. She is pretty distraught right now... either at the thought she might lose me... or because she is afraid I might find out it isn't over.

I guess I'll know soon.

Shaden

Shaden,

Perhaps there is some opportunity here for you to rephrase your appropriate request for answers as HER/YOUR MARITAL "INTIMACY" ISSUE.

You and her both desire a loving marriage where you both know everything about the other and choose to love each other anyway. Encourage her to open up about her feelings and who she is and share more of yourself as well. Discuss calmly her rationale for withholding and the roots of those fears. Although you want all the sorid details now perhaps just being OK with just a few detail now should be enough. IMHO the nitty-gritty details should be left for later in recovery once the FOG has completely cleared.

My wife gave me all the details way to early. She "flowered" them up because she was still believing the "fantasy" that OM was the greatest thing in the world. You do not need to hear about how great this or that sexual position was or how she felt when he did this or that with his tongue right now because it is too early for her to deliver the facts accurately (without delusion).

I agree you need the facts eventually because your imagination is fervently filling in the gaps. But just maybe your WW knows better than too fill you in completely just yet.

Have patience. Talk, ask questions, and listen, listen, listen. She will back down from her postion eventually.

Mr. Wondering

Thank you, Mr. Wondering.

My W did say in the phone conversation I just talked about when she was very upset... for me to write down my questions and she would see what she could answer. Would you suggest I write them all down or just a few to start with... hoping I'll have another chance later? I would prefer to discuss them rather than in writing, but I suppose it's a start.

Shaden