Shaden-

Tell her that you can understand how hard things are for her right now...and that you are in the same boat she is. You can completely understand how stressed she is and how difficult all of this is to deal with...but unfortunately, that doesn't make the problem go away. It HAS to be dealt with NOW...it can't wait, or its just going to fester and make matters WORSE, not better.

Be kind, but blunt, and tell her that she HAS to step up and do her part in this too. That means being COMPLETELY honest. No "provide a list and she'll answer what she wants to"....COMPLETE honesty.

Tell her this...and you'd better mean it too, or this won't work. Tell her that if she will promise be completely honest with you, you'll promise to NOT to attack her in anyway for telling you the truth, no matter how much it hurts. And when she DOES tell you something that hurts (but doesn't do it in a way meant to attack, if she's just giving you the honest answer you asked for)...no matter how it makes you feel, stop, think calmly about it from her angle, thank her for her honesty, and do NOT attack her or do anything to make her feel bad for being honest with you. THIS is how you show her that she CAN be honest with you without fear of reprisal. It's not easy...I had to do it in my situation as well. But it gets easier with time, and it leads her to see that she can be honest with you, and that you mean what you've said about wanting to hear the truth without hurting her.

But...do NOT give in on TOTAL honesty. Don't accept her being willing to be 'partially honest' with you and answer questions that she is comfortable with...she's got to be willing to be COMPLETELY open.

And honestly, challenge her on the email password too...and install a keylogger on your computer, and TELL her that you've done so. Again, let her know that NO secret is acceptable, and that there is no such thing as a good marriage where secrets are kept.

My FWW went through this same fog at first when she first ended the A. But after a while she FINALLY realized that it didn't matter...if she had nothing to hide, nothing to be ashamed of, my 'checking up on her' would only help us to heal. Feel free to talk with her about my situation too if you think it will help...

Good luck friend.

I think writing out your questions is a good idea. She needs reinforcement that it is safe to open up to you. You are attempting to get to know your wife at a deeper level than ever before and bust down the walls she has built around herself now and before any affair. I suggest maybe 5 questions. Post your intended questions and get advice here. I am sure many can chime in.

The questions should be proceeded with a statement that you are not requesting this information to punish her for past behavior but rather as a necessary information for the recovery and reconciliation of your marriage together.


Question 5 should be "How would you like me to proceed with asking these type questions in the future? Do you like these questions written out 5 at a time? Do you prefer to have them in advance of our conversation or presented immediately for conversation? Would you prefer to respond in writing? How often do you feel comfortable presenting these questions - Once a week?, twice a month?

BTW, this first set of questions should not be filled up with too many multi-part questions. However, the next set can have a few more and so on until she objects.

You should search and find some old threads regarding this exact issue and how they addressed the situation.

I believe eventually she will be open to discussing these matters at will. But setting up rules will allow you two to proceed with recovery without seemingly unreasonable demands from you that she is not yet ready to concede to.

Good luck.....Baby steps...by demonstrating patience and understanding you will get all that you want to know and probably then some unfortunately.

Mr. Wondering

Owl - you contradict yourself a little here. Shaden can not demand "radical honesty" right now as WW remains in completely or partially in the fog. Pulling her from the fog is a process, just as it was for you and me. Today WW took a step. She just capitulated to answering some written questions. Take what you can get today, in an comfortable, loving and appreciative manner and tomorrow will take care of itself.

Perhaps the ideas in Owl's post can be put in the opening statement as a GOAL of this discovery process. They are strong points. She does need to emphatically know that you will eventually accept no less than Total Openness regarding the affair but have patience and understanding of WW's inability to conceive of it just yet.

I would also surmise that there are currently secrets that you (Shaden) have that you will not yet share with WW, like your snooping techniques and posting here. I am certain you will disclose those as well someday but if she flipped your questions on you what would you say? Not the truth, I hope.

Shaden, read up on L.B. and "Selfish Demands". I am not saying the information you seek you are not entitled to but I am encouraging you to be careful with your approach. You should be addressing this as a loving husband and not merely as the Betrayed Spouse.

JMHO

Mr. Wondering

Shaden,

I am guessing right now your WW is fretting over the fact she is allowing you the written question thing. She probably expects a huge list to be answered as soon as she gets home.

I just had the idea that maybe you should wait a day. Thank her for deciding to allow you in and how much you value HER for making this decision. Right now she may feel forced. Emphasize your appreciation for HER DECISION to share information. Then throw her off balance by merely stating you are working on a list of 5 questions for her to answer tomorrow. This will give you time to come up with the best 5 questions for you and will give WW a break as you obviously been pushing this honesty concept hard the last few days. You also are also telling her you are limiting your questions to 5 so she will not be overwhelmed tomorrow.

Take her out to dinner or do some other distracting hopefully fun activity together. Recovery needs to be interupted sometimes for dating and fun. I imagine you are still in the process of building up your love bank with her so try to take advantage of opportunities like this to do the unexpected and spontaneously throw in some fun.

Just a suggestion.

Mr. Wondering

p.s.- I, too, am concerned about the password change but keep inspecting what you inspect and take one day at a time (get keylogger program). You appear to be making progress so I suggest just keep on, keeping on with attracting your wife back and building up your love bank.

Thanks, Mr. Wondering.

As to secrets... yes there are probably things I don't tell her if not asked... like I have not told her that I exposed to my parents yesterday... but mostly I haven't told her because of the way yesterday went. But I won't lie about it if she asks. She is also well aware of MB and I have offered to show her the site... to let her see what I am writing. The stuff I'm writing today would make me a little nervous as it sounds too much like I am manipulating a plan... I guess we all are to a certain extent.... but my plan is simply to build a great marriage. However, I am ok with her reading this and would encourage her to go on MB. She hasn't had any interest.

She hasn't read very much about A's or M or anything, even though I've brought home about a dozen books to find out all that I can. The MC suggested a book... Sacred Marriage. She didn't get it, finally a month later, I ordered it through Amazon and gave it to her. She saw it as a control issue that I would buy it for her. I realize that I can't force this on her, but it is frustrating that I have put aside a lot of my healing and emotions to support her, and I am doing everything I can to learn and grow and she, IMHO, is not doing very much. But that is the reality of my situation. I can live with it or leave.

Nobody said this was going to be easy nor fair. I realize that and I'm doing a lot to keep things together. I just want to occassionally see some movement from her. Maybe I am today. I sometimes feel jealous of the BS who have WS working hard to keep things together. But I also read a lot of situations on here that appear in worse shape than mine. Plus, if I didn't have to do all the work that I'm doing, I wouldn't be growing or learning anything new.

Shaden

I will probably wait atleast a day. We are moving MIL out tonight... atleast I'm assuming she will be at her apartment tonight. Maybe my W is going with her, I don't know. We move at the end of the week. She finds out tomorrow, hopefully, a response from her work whether they will accept our demand on severance. A lot going on... I can be patient and would have if she had just said I need a little more time.

As to the emails. One of my expectations are that when we move to the new address and set up the new internet, we will just share an email address. I'll see how that goes.

Thanks for all the encouragement and advice. I also have to find out when I will be talking to OMW and will see how that storm gets weathered.

Shaden

Wonderings-

I see your point. And you're right, it is a process.

Taking it slow may be his only option at this point...and I agree that she's probably scared to death of this 'list' of questions...perhaps instead of providing a 'one time list'...tell her that you'll start with a couple, and then bring up others as needed/appropriate.

And again...regardless of her answer, if she's given you an HONEST answer, do NOT flame her for it. You HAVE to begin building a new pattern that will demonstrate to her that it's GOOD to be honest with you. I had to do this as well. When my wife was still going through all of this, I learned how to avoid reacting badly when she said something that hurt...as long as she never tried to do it an attacking manner to me. She was amazed that I would take the time to see her viewpoint of things...and I let her know that while I might not agree with what she did, I could at least try to understand her reasoning. And she got more comfortable with being honest with me, because she wasn't attacked everytime she said something that might have hurt my feelings.

Building that kind of situation can take time...I stand corrected Wonderings...thanks for the 're-think' on that. You have to start that foundation now.

But...at the same time, if you don't set clear boundaries, your WW/FWW will continue to take advantage of that. Remember, she's in Taker mode, and will stay so as long as that seems to be working for her. If you set a boundary and don't enforce it, you're making matters worse, not better. Just make sure that any boundary you set is measureable, and the consequences are enforcable. And make it clear to her that YOU are willing to live within those same boundaries...NEVER expect anything of her that you can't meet yourself.

Owl

You are correct about setting boundaries that I need to live in as well. I am trying to do that. For honesty, I spoke to her about a lady at work who was giving me attention and knew about our problems. I said I enjoyed the attention... that it helped build my shattered self-esteem. But that I am fully aware of the danger, and even explained to the lady that I could not discuss much or any of my personal problems because of this danger. This is not a situation to be concerned with... the lady just was married a month ago (I know, that doesn't matter), but I really have no interest... but I wanted to start the radical honesty and I know this is protection against interest forming. My W was upset about me telling her this... even though it was soon after DDay. She used this as an example of information that should never be shared in a M. She said she would rather have not known... why did I tell her? I didn't and don't agree with her.

I'm still trying to understand and review our 14 years of M to see why she is so scared of my anger. I could probably count on one hand the times I've really "blown up" at her... and never, even in these times, have I called her any derogatory names. If I am angry, I generally walk away to ensure I don't say anything that I will regret. I've never threatened or used any kind of physical force. I think her fear stems back further to her childhood, but I'm not certain. It is true that I will become defensive... and she is also a master at it. It's probably because I have rarely become angry that she is just not used to it and doesn't know how to react. My way of dealing with my anger has caused some of our problems... conflict avoidance and it has shut down the passion in our M.

Shaden

Thanks to all of you for your advice. I'm leaving work now to go and move my MIL. That should be a very awkward time as she is probably well aware of all I said yesterday to her daughter.

C'est la vie.

Shaden

Shaden-

If I had to guess, not knowing the two of you, I'd figure that she's scared of your anger because she knows that she's hurt you FAR beyond anything she's ever done to you in the past. She's afraid to face that...I'm sure it is a scary thing for her.

I've gotten the impression that many WS's biggest fears seem to be that they'll NEVER be forgiven for the A...that it will always be held over their heads like some sort of Sword of Damoclese...and that it will be used against them every time they do something wrong in the future. So they're scared of reconciliation...of course...who would want to live like that?

In my case, I have made the point of NEVER bringing up my wife's EA when we're having a disagreement...EVER. We sometimes discuss it now, but never when we're 'fighting'. And I try to ensure that she understands that I'm not holding it against her...I really and truly HAVE forgiven her for what happened. But I can see where it's going to take your WW/FWW a while before she can see that same thing in you. It's a trust thing SHE has to learn too.

Hang in there.

Shaden,

I just copied this from an email I got today from the-generous-husband (a daily email reminder for husbands I recently signed up for). It discussed being on your wife's side. Its a difficult concept for the bitter BS but kinda what Owl and I are talking about. Good luck with the moving around tonight.

Mr. Wondering



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Shaden:

Ok, so your wife is thinking about nursing school. She is doing so after being out of school for some time. In other words, she will have to get up to speed on the reality of lerning. And you have two kids...

In nursing school, they will try to kill her. The theory is that they do not want weak people making life and death decisions.

The stress is unbelievable. In point of fact, this was a contributing cause for my wife's affair. The two years caused a ton of stress on our marriage for any number of reasons. We thought we were grownups and could handle it.

I totally supported her emotionally and anything else I could do to help her. Which in turn meant I was giving and she was receiving, but she didn't see it that way because of all the stress. She now knows better. But that was then and this now.

I have been advised by numerous people of the strains that nursing school puts on a relationship. Lots of divorces and lots of problems. I have seen it with my own eyes in three different marriages including my own.

If you have an interest in more, just let me know. The point is that at her age, it will take a serious commitment by YOU to help her through it and she MUST commit to YOU or it won't work. The pressure is simply too great, IMHO and the opinions of others who have been through it. Your mileage may vary.

Tears work everytime! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> Men are such pushovers. lol

Shaden, I think that is great. But I would also point out that their solution must meet with your judgment, too, and be a feasible plan that ensures the desired result. For example, I would not think it would be best to count on a liar [the OM] to tell his W the truth. The problem with this tactic is that it often results in the OP's spouse not getting the true and complete story. Forcing an OP to bust himself does nothing to guarantee a better chance at recovery, rather, it often ensures that nothing ever comes of it when the OP lies and/or spins the true nature of the affair.

I respect what you are doing, Shaden, but I just because someone is a pastor does not mean they have any common sense. Hopefully, they will do the right thing, but you already knew the right thing to do and didn't need their help to know that.

edited to add: what makes you believe she has truly ended contact? A couple of things make me question this, ie: her lack of remorse, insistence on secrecy about the affair, and changed password. Are you sure contact has ended?

Shaden,

I concur with everyone else, your boundaries about secrets are well founded. Let's review the data. Your W has kept secrets and how is YOUR marriage? She had an affair. Her mother kept secrets and her daughters life is a mess, the MIL's life is a mess, and when the rest of her family finds out that your W is not be the man she thought of as a father, other peoples lives are going to be a mess.

Exactly why would you want to raise your children in a family where secrets (devastating secrets have destroyed so many families and lives???) I cannot think of a good reason to do so. Further, I think your children might be healthier with you married to a woman that was honest, and showed them via their father what a healthy marriage and life would be.

I have a relative who has spent her life with secrets and lies. The response...one child dead, one child on drugs, and the oldest won't speak to her or acknowledge her. These "kids" are all in their 40's. She is happy if you talk to her, but she has lost ALL of her children.

Do you want this sort of outcome for your children or the children you might have in the future?? I don't think so. Your boundary is well founded, keep it. Enforce it, and I would express to the clergymen/women and counselors your take on this secrecy issue.

Or you could ask your W or MIL the old Dr. Phil question "How's that workin fer ya?"

Stick with your boundary, it may be the end of your marriage but if it is not respected your marriage is already over. In fact it has been for some time now. The only thing you are negotiating with your W is whether to rebuild the marriage or leave it.

Stick with it, expose to OM's W, and be the best Dad and man you can be. That is all you can do.

God Bless,

JL

Melody...

Didn't you see the rest of my post when I said for the first time the tears didn't move me? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" />

It takes us a while, but eventually we men do figure it out. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

Shaden

The pastor said she suspected about the A and was just deciding whether or not to contact me herself. I am counting on the fact that she is friends with OMW and that there will be some respect there for ensuring the truth is heard. If OM tells his W, I will also ensure I have atleast one conversation after with OMW to ensure that details add up.

The pastor has some experience with dealing with these type of situations. She knew right away to agree with us leaving our church rather than trying to talk us into coming back and working it out.

I'm agreeing to it this way for the sake of their 2 kids... one of which is best friends of my nephew. I want their family to rebuild as well... plus that helps to ensure OM is not available to pursue my W... although I guess it didn't stop him before. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smirk.gif" alt="" />

Shaden

I don't have any reason to believe it except for a gut feeling... the same gut feeling that told me something was wrong and I went after it to find out the A. I don't know, but I am cautious. I am trying to be positive so that I don't go crazy and paranoid. If it is still going on, I will eventually find out and she will be out... and it would be busted wide open this time.

Shaden

We all have flaws and skeletons. Yes this is bigger than I imagined... but one thing I can say is that she is an excellent Mom to my sons. Yes, I know the question is if she is so good, why would she hurt her family... but I think every WS could answer that one for you... they aren't thinking clearly at the time. But throughout this whole time, she has always made sure the kids were looked after first.

The only complaint I had was the championship baseball tournament my son had which we won... I was coaching and my parents were here from out of town. She chose to stay away "because she was uncomfortable with my parents" (at that time we were having problems, but I didn't yet know about the A)... but during the tournament, she was with OM. She will have to live with that guilt of missing my son collect his trophy and hit a homerun. (We were the underdogs, so it was even better).

Shaden

Mr. Wondering... thanks for the link. I do want her to know I am on her side. I am trying to learn too much at once... how to have a safe place for her during this time, but still process my emotions. How to not avoid conflict in a mature way. How to listen and not try and fix everything for her. How to give without a motive. Confidence. Etc. I think she can see me really trying... I just want to see the same from her.


Larry... always a pleasure to hear from you. My W did decide to delay her nursing school, which means she has to start over on the waiting list if she wants to still go... so I have a couple of years atleast to try and get some things sorted out.

Owl... this is going to be a key thing for me to learn quickly... not to become defensive or demand my own needs when we are talking. Not to remind her of the A when we are trying to build the R. I need to gain her trust so that she can start to share more.

Thanks all. I am feeling much better this evening about where things are. I still expect a rough ride when we tell OMW... but it should be interesting to say the least. I just want MIL out of the house first. We moved most of her things tonight, but her phone and internet and cable is not in until Wednesday... she can't do without that for a couple of days. Where would I be without a MIL to complain about? <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

Shaden