Improving,

I was going to post almost exactly the same thing! But then you DID! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

It comes down to the same two principles....that any WS or FWS should realize. While the condition of the M (not having needs met, etc) might have left the M vulnerable to an A - it was the lack of 'coping' mechanisms of the WS/FWS that led to them choosing to have the A.

My A happened with very similar precursors to Improving's. And after I found out about my exH's A, he had the same problems. Neither of us FORCED the other to have an A. And when you get down to it, if the M doesn't work out, then you must learn to meet your own EN's anyway....

So ultimately, it's an avoidance, an uneducation, a low self confidence....of meeting one's own EN's that allows them to 'choose' the A.

Good post, Improving!

Thanks, LIT!

I try to provide insight where I can and take responsibility for myself and my own actions.

B--I couldn't agree with you more. Seeing Neak admonished to evaluate her "poor marriage contributions" when she'd spent YEARS making herself into a human pretzel trying to be everything to her husband he could possibly want is what propelled me out of my lurker status, and onto this board. Even Neakbro, not noted for his intuitive sensitivity (<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />), mentioned to me that there was a big difference between what his sister put into her marriage and what her husband did. And he and his sister's husband were good buddies. I was surprised when Neakbro said that he found his sister's treatment often upsetting. Frankly, I didn't know he was even paying attention!

One of the lessons coming soon to the Saga involves the very point you are making...a person with a mind to stray doesn't need any other excuse than his/her own desire. Whether one's needs are being met or not, individual choice is still what propels any person into an illicit relationship. It's not like they had guns held to their heads, after all, with the command, "Fornicate or DIE!" <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/crazy.gif" alt="" />

t&l

You know b

I think you have it right.

Everyone has needs of some sort but most of us also have wants and many times they are put ahead of real needs.

It really doesn't matter WHY you had an affair - and I dont accept its ok to have a exit affair either - its a very selfish reaction that totally shoves your spouses face in the dirt.
I know I did it.

If you ask me can anything GOOD come out of an affair? Then I will answer NO!!!

Those who say good things can come from an affair appear to me like having self serving feel good excuses. There may be reasons but THERE ARE NO EXCUSES for having an affair.
(I would excise genuine mental illness from this statement)

However if you ask me can GOOD come out of how you respond to recovering yourself and helping your spouse recover from your affair? Then YES some good, maybe a lot of good can from those actions.

If your spouse offers you, gifts you, with the miracle of forgiveness, most of us find we want to give that spouse our total commitment and meet their wants not out of guilt but with thankful and genuine remorse for the pain and suffering we have inflicted on them. Guilt is always there but perhaps thats not a bad thing handled correctly.

I can't turn back time and undo my actions, I wish I could. I can work on being the wife, partner and friend that, my H wants though. Yes different because of our history now, but still HIS totally. Not a submissive whiney needy woman either but a strong independant thinking person who wants to share everything with him.

Perhaps the biggest thing I learnt out of all of this is that he doesnt NEED me at all and that surprisingly I dont NEED to be needed.
I want to answer his wants/needs whatever you call them. Thats a choice.
He made one to keep answering mine.

Wow I am blessed you know.

U R a lady who usually does things for a reason. I seemed to sense that. Glad to know what is bothering you. Hope I didn't stir up more anger. Part of healing is recognition.

So OW's H took her back? Well for how long and how many times. I know this is not your concern but what, now you feel guilty for his current pain? If you do, stop beating yourself up for it.

Somewhere deep down in depths we can't see is a W who still feels the hurt of each family member she loves. Yet she is hurt also and the pain won't go away. But it can be covered over by the love and care of those who do love her.

Believer, you have lots of love and caring people around you. Someone who even wants t/b special in your life, right? While you allow yourself some healing time, be glad those people feel that way about you. My MB senses are tingling again and this time it's because I know you know how much you are loved. It's ok to move on and appreciate those who love you. You are not depriving anyone else by doing so. It's ok to mourn the loss of your H. It's ok.

Hugz,
L.

here are some of my ramblings on this whole issue...

the problem with speaking in terms of unmet needs is that people here are in such pain and looking for answers to some things that aren't answerable...or just as often we don't like the answers...

"I did it just because I did..."

the thought of unmet needs is not the unmeeting superficialness of things...but it is as some people have pointed out...the discovery of oneself and exploring the deeper issue of selfishness, and misguided treatment of others to make oneself happy...etc...

and again no one no one no one states that unmet needs justify an affair nor are they the CAUSE of an affair...

I have as much disdain for WS who cry wah wah wah to unmet superficial needs...as I do for BS who pick up the martyr cloak and wear it in a 'I did everything for my spouse....I cooked I cleaned I raised the children etc etc etc......wah wah wah...
I say to those people if you did not do those acts out of love in the first place...but did them only to be used as weapons of entitlement...then you were wrong to do them at all......and much better would have resulted if you were truthful and did none of those things.........


the issue of marriage builders is NOT the terminology...it is the JOURNEY...........

the discussion of unmet needs to a BS early in the just finding out stage is a gift of control..
I am one who always asks a newbie...

what does your spouse 'say' are the 'reasons' for his affair...
this does not put onus of responsibility on the BS it gives them something to address logically and concretely...AND
it is the begining of some pathway of communication...
telling them to get over it is also a path of communication...but it is way to early in the game....and shuts it down...

if a BS wants to shut down communication then go ahead and scream to bad from the mountaintops and find a lawyer...

if they want to communicate then perhaps they are better served finding iniatially any path that lets them in...

Recovery here is rarely about recovery about the marriage...it is mostly recovery of the individual...

strong enough to come that point that seperates the milk from the cream.....
strong enough to say \
to a WS ....you may still attempt to claim this or that as an unmet need and cry justification for your affair..

but I will have no part of it...

the answer of unmet needs is in the recovery of the WS...for if they have truly journeyed through the muck they will be the first one to correctly identify superficial unment needs as a viable excuse...

and I believe that deep needs of honesty and value and cherishing can be developed from this journey..which were not necessarily unmet needs...but more likely UNKOWN in the marriage at all...........and at the root of an affair...but not the onus of a BS necesarrily...

and true intimacy will be formed and nurtured.....

these type of issues become quickly misunderstood here..

plan A is NOT about meeting any needs of a BS....

unmet needs is NOT about REASONS or JUSTIFICATION of affairs...and NOT to be accepted in things like piles of laundry ONCE real recovery begins...In Plan A they are worth entertaining for they diffuse the WS rantings....and again communication stays open...


Plan A
unmet needs etc....
are just communication tools and guidelines to assist guiding people in keeping communication routes open..

thats pretty much ALL they are...

ARK

There were many "needs" not being met in my marriage, but I still do not feel that having such an intimate relationship with another woman was an excuse.
Pouring out into the OW rather then into the marriage is Bull.
I do feel jealous that what was important to me was not important to him, not important enough to stop his "friendship" and see how much damage he was causing.
He could not see the stress in our lives and how much I needed relief, but instead he thought about HIS needs, and never mine.
I know what my needs are, they are pretty simple.
My H is a very emotionally needy person, and it is very draining, epecially when there are 8 kids to take care of also.
I think that was the attraction to OW, she was also into herself and the 2 of them thrived on one anothers egos and pity parties.They filled each others needs, without the distraction of reality.

As a lot of folks may know, I am a strong proponent of the MB philosophy and strategies because it fit perfectly for my situation...

I agree with ARK on this...



It is a JOURNEY...a PROCESS..with each stop along the way being significant....PLAN A being just as significant and important as PLAN B followed by the steps in RECOVERY....

I also wholeheartedly agree with this:



This last part..."the discovery of oneself and exploring the deeper issue of selfishness, and misguided treatment of others to make oneself happy"- applied to me as the BS. I SELFISHLY neglected my H and my marriage and focused on myself and my own needs, focusing in on my own happiness. Steve Harley called me on this right away and he was absolutely correct. He stated that I needed A PLAN to rectify my selfishness and to let my WH know that I was ready and able to change. THIS WAS ESSENTIAL IN MY PLAN A. Once I made the decision to evidence this change, I have never turned back and I am a better person, wife, mother because of the changes that I have made. My H had treated me like a QUEEN. I began to take him for granted. He felt neglected and pushed aside by me and our children. I began to totally disregard him and his feelings. That was wrong and selfish. I am not assuming that is true for others here but that was true for me...

However, I also agree with this statement of ARK's...



My neglect in no way justified his actions. He could have shared his unhappiness with me. He could have left me.. He could have coped better or whatever... We have had ad nauseum conversations about this and he has numerous explanations that do not explain or justify... All I know and accept is that he is extremely sorry and remorseful, saddened about what he did to me, has learned ways to communicate his marital dissatisfaction now, has set up ways to create safeness in our R and I have forgiven him... THIS IS THE WORK OF RECOVERY....



This has not been true for us.. For us, it has been a 3 way Recovery, recovery for us as individuals AND RECOVERY of the MARRIAGE. ONE PLUS ONE EQUALS A STRONGER, NEW AND HIGHLY IMPROVED MARRIAGE....

And yes- NOW...TRUE INTIMACY as ARK states....



Maybe not...

Most importantly though, I think, PLAN A is about clearly COMMUNICATING AND DEMONSTRATING A CAPACITY TO MEET UNMET NEEDS....THIS MUST BE AN IMAGE HELD IN THE WS' MEMORY...

THIS WAS ESSENTIAL FOR OUR RECOVERY..THE COMMUNICATION AND DEMONSTRATION OF MY OWN PERSONAL CHANGE....

Ark... rebuke of venting very well taken.

I agree that "giving" for a returned benefit is not true giving... it is not "unconditional". That is one of my issues that I am trying to change... that I was co-dependent.

However, when I was "giving" prior to the affair, I did not consciously give while saying to myself I better receive something back for this. I did feel hurt and rejected that my W did not seem to care about returning any of my needs. Now, obviously, not all of her needs were being met... but can any of us realistically meet all needs? The fact that I feel was evident is that I was willing to meet needs. We just did not communicate very well... which is a basic need.

This thread is asking whether it is reasonable to say that unmet needs end in an A.
It is a part of it, but there are so many other factors... stress in life from situations like death, babies, work... past history, like a parent's divorce or other trauma which was not resolved by the child... self-esteem issues... moral issues (maybe someone who is searching is vulnerable to moral standards while they search???)... and other things.

My MC says that I was the "good guy" and my WW just wanted to experience the "bad guy". She felt too bored, too much pressure from me giving to her, the M was not balanced.
If this is true, then looking back in hindsight I choose to vent because I am still here hurting when I tried so hard to "make my W happy." Many people, including her close family said she was so lucky to have me as her husband. I realize there is so much more than just "giving". We did not have true intimacy of sharing all of our feelings... good and bad. I know there is a lot I have to do to change to make me a better person... not changing for her. But when this is still relatively fresh to me and my W still is not sharing very much of details or her feelings, I am struggling to understand. Sometimes I take on most of the blame... with the exception of the decision for her to have the A... sometimes I feel I did nothing wrong and can't believe this has happened. I am guessing it is somewhere in between. Is there blame??? or is it just something that happens that can't be explained?

To just meet needs does not guarantee that an A will not happen.

Shaden

A very good friend of mine used to say "We all have our sad stories!, I have mine, you have yours...so what!!!" I miss him terribly, but uknowwhat? I picture him up there (wherever "upthere" is) saying to the passed on whiners, "We all have our sad..." .And then I smile just a little.

Thanks b,

I agree, boyo! I can whine along with the best of 'em, but then it's time to "move on"!!! No use cryin over spilt milk and all that jazz. I don't like wasting too much of my precious time going "WAAA, wahhh". I don't believe in charity to those that can help themselves. Children and animals are the ones i feel for mostly, cause they don't get the choices!

Love ya b!,
jls

My H and your H must have shared the same OW. Both so selfish and into their wants and needs that they could not be bothered with caring about their spouses.

Unmet needs - nah. My H was attracted to OW, has been for years, she gave him an opportunity, and he took it. It didn't matter one bit what needs I was or was not meeting. It didn't matter that we were both talking about moving our marriage/life in a new and better direction. She gave the okay for him to move ahead and he wanted her enough to risk me and the kids. It was selfishness pure and simple - it wasn't about unmet needs at all. If it was then I would have had the affair!

All this damage to my life just so he could have a piece on the side. All this pain and suffering in my life just so they could have free uninhibited sex together. No worries about tomorrow - just an escape..........Hope they enjoyed it!

Sorry for the threadjack, but believer has it right. I'm tired of all the excuses and justifications people give for doing bad things. I've done bad things in my life too - I admit it, provide no excuses for it, apologize if need be to God or whoever, and try to never make the same poor choice again. I'm not perfect, but I don't continue to do actions that only destroy the people that love me most............

I like the idea of calling them Emotional WANTS.

My favorite are the creatures that start to whine if they don't get SF a certain amount of time...or if performance isn't up to par...or if they don't find their S attractive enough, and that gives them an excuse to go out looking for some strange, or an excuse to be unhappy in their M.

IT TAKES TWO TO TANGO, and that goes for SF too. If you're not happy, then ask yourself what YOU are doing wrong, not looking to seek happiness from someone else, or someTHING else.

And fis any one Emotional Want the be all-end all of your happiness. If you don't have this one thing then you can't be happy?

Dear Tired

I can relate to how you are feeling. My husband started his A after 10 good years of marriage. I have looked under a microscope at what I didn't do to meet his needs or what I could have done differently that might have avoided this A. I saw many things and was ready to work on them. My H on the other hand just "could not get his feelings back" and said he knew that I was working harder on saving our marriage than he was. Since I am pregnant with our 2nd child I often feel like I'm about to loose my mind. I read about what "I" can do to save our marriage, but he is in the fog and he doesn't care about anything but his own needs right now. That MIGHT change over time, or not, but he made a concious choice day after day to continue the A. It started about 2-3 months before I found out about it and in that time, he came to care more about her or himself or his freedom than he did about his family. I might have been able to help him avoid the A, but I COULD ask myself why I never had an affair. My needs were not all met, there was opportunity, but I chose not to out of love and loyalty to my marriage. Am I the victim or am I the acussed?

I'm sure this wasn't helpful to you, but I am at the end of my rope. I believe you are right that there are many causes for an A. I hope you find an answer in your search that makes sense. If you do, please share it with me!

I remember I was in the middle of my big old BS self-doubt tirade ... whipping myself for all and any marriage violations I had ever committed ...

and my Mom said

"Stop and THINK. YOU are a good wife. You have been a good wife. This is not about you."

....... when mom spoke, I listened. No more self-abuse for me.

I really miss my Mom ... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

{{{pep}}}

Well, since WH left (okay, I threw him out), 2 and a half years ago, he has never complained about any needs being met. He has always said he was just a bum, and not a good husband, and it was all his fault.

Of course, I have searched my soul, and am sure I didn't meet his needs for admiration. To be perfectly truthful, there wasn't too much to admire in the last years of our marriage.

Someone said earlier that if you don't admire a man, he turns off, gets lazy, and refuses to do anything. My WH got that way, and I knew he was down, and tried to find SOMETHING to admire.

Let's see. He didn't help around the house, do the yard, take the cars in to get fixed, help with the kids (even his), cook, go grocery shopping, take me anywhere, contribute financially, and was just below average in the sack.

It may seem like I am rewriting the history of the marriage, and maybe I am. But it seems to me, shortly after we married, he quit trying. Before we were married he always helped with everything. We did lots of fun stuff together.

Once we married, it was like he bagged the game (me), cleaned and dressed it, and brought it home. That was his contribution.

I think I may have met one of his relatives at one time or another! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" />

t&l

Believer:

Your last post was interesting..referring to the rut we get into once we are married..

In my sessions with Steve Harley, he called me on: "Why did you stop doing the things you did before you were married...isn't that why he was attracted to you,etc?" He told me that I had to PRACTICE doing those same things again....

Plus, same as you, I complained to Steve: "He never told me that I wasn't meeting his needs..

Steve remarked: "Did he have to TELL YOU how to please him when you were dating?" The message is that we, husbands and wives, are called to be sensitive and attuned to each others needs...

OPs, in the fantasy world of stolen moments, can focus on this. I think we get caught up in our lives and forget about the importance of romance once we are married..