[color:"blue"]Faith,

Thinking... I have set boundaries with myself - like not running out myself to buy beer if I think he is going to run out. That is his problem as host to host his soiree.

I don't know how you could put a boundary on the above scenario unless I went to the fridge and pulled out a beer and said "this is mine - please set it aside for me" and then tell him that "I'm going to bed at 10pm".

Same thing with groceries. I don't know how many times I've bought groceries to bring with me so that there will be food at his house if he invites me over. My latest boundary is not buying any food. Let him scrounge up some food while I look pitiful and hungry.

I had to laugh recently because since he has not had guests in a while, his larder is very empty and he was complaining about there being no food in the house. He wants me to come over this weekend to spend time. I'm tempted to tell him that I would if I knew there would be food there. Gal's gotta eat - even us "less than average LOL" girls.

V.[/color]

Check,
LOL.. I believe you just love to argue with TBG. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/cool.gif" alt="" />

Here's Dr. Harley's article and a section of it:


Giver and Taker




Are you saying the you never do anything selfish? You are ALWAYS, 100% a giver? You may be, and I commend you for it. The rest of us strive to be that way. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

So its the out-of-balance person that lies?

I think I got it!

[color:"blue"]

So people lie to get something they want, to be someone they aren't or to avoid something unpleasant I have to add.

V.[/color]

No, I don't want to argue with TBG -- so TBG, don't think that's what I'm trying to do.

Harley's Giver/Taker concept is really a beautiful simplified explanation of the balance between id, ego and superego and how they motivate our interaction with those of others. He's talking about the normal situation where we need to remember to keep in balance. But personality disorders are the result of pathological imbances in id, ego and superego, so Harley's explanation has no value beyond helping us understand why someone's behavior is not right.

For my own part, I'd say that I am much like TGB in that my giver is stronger than my taker. It certainly is not so dominant that I will be anyone's doormat. Do I do selfish things? I have been guilty of this on occasion, but I was raised to believe that selfishness is wrong and to be avoided. When I find that I have behaved selfishly, I conclude that I have done wrong and apologize to whomever I may have hurt by my behavior. Taking care of oneself is not the same thing as selfishness.

You got it, lexxxy! All you have to do is ask yourself what the function of a lie is. It really only serves three purposes: 1) to get what you want when you won't get it any other way; 2) to cover your butt, when you've messed up bad; and 3) to deceive or manipulate another. All of these are selfish motivations, and selfish people are out of balance.

sunny,
I like your article snippet. Thanks!!!!

And as far as your boundaries, I don't think there's anything wrong with the ideas you had. "Honey, would you mind making sure to save some beer for me? or buying some extra to be sure we don't run out? And I'm just letting you know, I'm going to bed at 10, even if he decides to stay longer." Seems like this still gives him choices, takes care of YOUR needs, without giving him the specific answer. If he still doesn't take care of the beer, you'll be OK this time, but you can still tuck yourself in at 10. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/wink.gif" alt="" />

And the groceries can be the same way. "Honey, do you have some groceries in the house, or should I bring my own again?"

Really small adjustments on YOUR end, without much "fixing" on his end, and maybe he'll "fix" his end. If they're still a resentment issue for you, you should TALK about it with him.

Just my humble opinion.

True enough.

My experience with people who are not honest with themselves is also that they don't like the reality of a situation/person and choose to believe differently. Typically the motivation to lie to themselves is pretty strong, so it is very difficult for them to be honest with themselves.

An example would be a mother who refuses to believe that her husband would molest their child.

Actually, I don't think we are that far apart. A matter of semantics perhaps.

I would agree that a persons giver or taker can totally dominate their personality.

I also agree that if the giver and taker are out of balance, the propensity for someone to lie is increased, but not an absolute.

But, I would have to say that it is possible for a person whose giver predominates to be more likely to lie. Otherwise, why would we have the term "white lie" if it weren't givers who were saying them?

I don't think there is a "predominance"

Givers "white lie" to stay nice -- or not hurt someones feelings -- or be what their SO wants, etc.

Takers just "outright" lie -- to get what they want, selfishly,-- to hide their actions, to avoid punishment, etc.

There's just no argument about which one happens more or which one is worse....

Well, think of this everyone. When you combine TGB's view with that of Lexxxy's, what you are describing is someone suffering from passive-aggressive personality disorder.

A lie is a lie is a lie. Whether you *think* you're doing it for the sake of the other person or not.

So... going back to my freakin' original question... we all love honesty... but it gets us in trouble (we all said that!)... and lying gets us in trouble too.

aaacckkkkkk!!!!!


<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/confused.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/rolleyes.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/tongue.gif" alt="" /> <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

Mr. Check -- only if its the same person doing both! LOL

Faith -- we must all love TROUBLE too!

I was thinking the same thing, but then it gets even more complicated because you have to throw in fear of conflict and the underlying selfish behavior of passive aggressor's.

And too... we could discuss the theory that no action is a selfless action. That altruistic people are altruistic for selfish gains...

So to answer the original question... say what you feel, but be careful with your words...

that or 42 <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

That's probably the best answer. Well, maybe 42. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/pfft.gif" alt="" />

I was about to post something along the lines of....

So... if I held back my true feelings, in order to be sensitive to yours... so that I don't scare you off... am I being cautious, in order to simply give a relationship it's best possible shot? That's not being a "player", or being dishonest to just get what I want... it's not "saying what the other person wants to hear"....

It's not necessarily holding back your true feelings. What it is is recognizing that there are "red flag" expression of feelings at particular junctures of a relationship and not expressing them in "red flag" fashion.

Faith, let's look at it another way. You start dating a man and he's really what you are looking for. After some time has past and the two of you know enough about one another, and it is obvious that there is mutual zing, then would be the time to say something along the lines of "I think an awful lot about you when I'm not with you and can't wait until I see you again." You've just let him know exactly how you are feeling and paid him a very nice compliment. "I can't stop thinking about you" may make him think of boiled bunnies and kitchen knives a la "Fatal Attraction." I gaurantee that those sorts of thoughts are going to go through his head on date number two.

Think about it. Is it really normal to not be able to stop thinking about a guy after just one or two dates? I don't believe it is. If this happens, it is because you are too hungry for a relationship, and just like being too hungry for food, you are most liable to grab whatever is at hand to satisfy that hunger without caring about whether it is good for you or not. Later, when you aren't so hungry, you'll want something a bit more satisfying and healthy for you. With food, you eat and then it's over and done with. With relationships, you jump in too quickly and you've brewed yourself a whole lot of trouble.

What I'm saying is that you need to slow down. It's quite alright to be strongly attracted to a man after just one date. It's also alright to be a bit preoccupied and destracted. Just understnd that that doesn't mean you are in love, nor should it mean that you shouldnm't proceed with caution and tact. You must understnad that men give their hearts much slowly and introducing a deeper level of intimacy too soo will always be a red flag for a man. So, feel what you feel, but measure how much of it you reveal. Total honesty in this sense is for committed couples, not for daters.

Think about this in the context of true honesty to yourself.

I understand this part. I really do!!!! Being CAREFUL with what I say ON THE SPOT is the hard part. But I can't wear a disclaimer on my forehead saying "only listen to part of what I say, because I'm an idiot".

And the other "honesty" stuff I was referring to is all about other stuff. *sigh* I'll be back. But I get this part, guys. I do. I did back when check first said it. Made perfect sense.

"Being CAREFUL with what I say ON THE SPOT is the hard part."

This is soooo easy for introverts and sometimes difficult for extroverts. It is something that extroverts can learn, though. Stop, think, then speak. Don't worry if you flub something and feel a little foolish. That can be endearing. Just clarify yourself when you say something that didn't come out the way you wanted.

Or you could explain that you've taken a vow of silence and write everything you want to say to him... <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/smile.gif" alt="" />

But I can't wear a disclaimer on my forehead saying "only listen to part of what I say, because I'm an idiot".

ROTF!!!!

Hi my name is ______
only listen to part of what I say, because I'm an idiot.

I'll have the name tags made up tomorrow for US Faith!!! LOL