Ok, first set some boundaries with mom. Please for your mental health sake tell her you won't engage in these conversations any longer. I am sure this adds to your feeling of repulsion to SF, in fact men in general!

Next, do take care of the IC. Make that a priority. Ask your H if you can take a break from SF while you work through some things with your IC. Be open, you can tell him his actions hurt without LB's.

Take care of yourself. {{FL}}}

kurst, i really want to fill his needs, i don't think i have allowed this type of interaction for so long because of a low self-esteem (not that i don't have a low self-esteem). i have truely wanted to meet his needs. it's just gotten to be such a mess now. what started out as me wanting to still meet his needs has backfired.

it's not like he forces me.

regarding staying celebate, he would say fine to that. SF is not high on his list, i don't think. however, i have no doubts he would get to a point of being physically uncomfortable, he would make that point known, i will respond and "help him" and then feel terrible for doing so.

and round the circle we go....

what is supposed to be a beautiful thing between two people, i've messed up so terrible. that is what hurts the most, i finally "get it" (regarding sex) but now it's all so messed up!!!

Awww FL - i am sorry you are going through this.

A friend of mine - who didn't use MB, had an affair 5 years ago when her son was 6 weeks old. She left her husband and left her son.

When she returned she started IC, but her husband wouldn't see a marriage councellor or go to IC.

She started becoming transparent and became a hermit - got involved soley with her church and certain friends who were good friends to her (like me) and never supported what she had done.

Her husband would come and go as he pleased - stay out late (never had an affair or relations with a woman) and she never asked where he was or what he was doing. He would be very cruel to her sometimes out of hurt, and she kept apologizing and changing and working on IC.

For the first year - they didn't have sex at all.

At the 2 year mark, she remembers sitting down and crying to herself - is this how it's always going to be? How much more of this can I take - but she picked herself up - kept doing the things she now enjoyed - her son, her church groups and her friends, and kept going with life.

At the 3 year mark, things had gotten alot better. Now only if he was stressed or he had too much to drink would he start to get upset about things, and hurt her emotionally. She kept strong, and kept the changes, transparency and devoting life to what she had been for the past 3 years.

Last year, was the 4 year mark and she said to me atlast things were normal. She is very careful to never bring up anything in relation to an affair, but they renewed their vows at 4 years, and were very much in love. Just after this her husband sat down one day and said to her - you really have changed, haven't you - I can see how much you have changed and I love you so much. She said it was an amazing moment.

At 5 years, they are now expecting their 2nd child, as things are finally really good for them. her husband doesn't seem to have any moments, or if he does, they are brief and aren't mentioned to her. Her life is going really well and she is amazed at the strength she never knew she had.

But at 1-2 years, I remember her wondering if she could do it - they fought alot as she got emotional alot - but she let him do what he needed to do to heal since he was too stubborn to seek help dealing with his pain and anger.

I don't know why I told you this story - maybe to tell you that there is hope? That things may seem so bleak right now and you don't know where to find the strength to do this - but give it to God and rely on his strength and keep giving your husband time to heal. I have faith he wont hold this over you forever, but he probably doesn't trust himself anymore at all, and so can't even begin to have faith in you. He doesn't want to make that mistake again. But in time, he will see that you have no intentions of ever letting another affair affect your lives and once he can trust that he will start to change.

If you ever want to vent - you can email me anytime you want my friend candice.louise@gmail.com

[[[[[[[[[ff]]]]]]]]]]]]]

***edited cause I put a combo of two email addresses LOL whoops - the right one is up now***

thanks dorry. yes i am wondering if i have the ability to do this. however, there is no other choice. i certainly don't feel like being a martyr, so i wont say i'm trapped.

i'm choosing to stay married.

I hated when my Dad always told me this - but maybe I hated it cause he was right?

God never gives you more than you can handle...

(((((FL))))))

I know where you're coming from. Patience is so hard sometimes. It sounds like you are trying to deal with 3 or 4 life shattering things all at the same time. Please give yourself a break and look after yourself. Any one of those issues would have been more than enough for one person to deal with, so tryign to cope with everything at once.... Anyone would occasionally freak out. I wonder why you give him OS if you feel so degraded by it. Is there another way that the two of you could have SF?

THis week, I was on holiday and was talking a lot to H. In one conversation, he told me that his main reaction to my A (and to others who have hurt him in the past) is strong distrust, that he doesn't understand what forgiveness means. ALso that the happiest times in his life have been the times when he had no responsibility, no relationships, and just looked after himself. I was trying hard to just listen to him, accept him as he is and be respectful. But it was so hard. I kept wanting to butt in and ask him pointed questions.

In the last few weeks, it feels like we have come so far because he is acting very loving towards me, giving me lots of affection, tryign to listen to me talk about my feelings and talking about our future together. But now it is me who is wondering why I have tried so hard for this M. I am wondering why I am sad now, when things seem to be improving. What I am waiting for or expecting. H agreed to keep going to the MC, but I don't think he expects to ever feel differently.

Hi Smur,

to answer your question, i have continued to meet his SF needs even though it is 95% of the time one way because i have sincerly wanted to fulfill his need in that area. this has occured since march 2004 when i made my initial confession to him. it has not been 100% one way, on a rare occasion he tries to satisfy me, i'm not sure what prompts him to do this. i guess the problem is that i have slowly gotten to a point where i figure enough is enough. i don't know what to make of his lack of desire to please. and now when he flat out states he is not wanting intercourse because he is afraid i might still be cheating and therefore he is afraid of getting something from me, i get to feeling used. if he believes i could still be cheating on him, why would he want me to do anything to him at all? unless he is ignoring the fact that it is me and only focuses on the physical sensation. i guess that no longer feels very good for me.

i think being able to be as giving and selfless about it as i have been for 1 1/2 yrs is actually pretty good. i just cannot do that anymore. i have hit my limit. i am not wanting to be mean about it, i just cannot do it anymore.

i did tell him two nights ago that i have been feeling used. he said ok. he said he does not want me doing anything that makes me feel bad. so i'm not sure what that means. i guess i'm just going to have to wait and see.

why do you think you are feeling sad now if he is acting loving towards you?? is it because you fear that although he is acting loving, he will never feel love towards you? does that make it feel less intimate perhaps?

FL,

I do understand about wanting to meet his needs, and also about not being able to do it anymore. It sounds good to me that you have talked to him about this. Have you asked him to fill needs of yours in other areas? Does he do it?

About me, I think it is not that I fear that he could never love me. Its maybe that I fear he doesn't really see 'me', but sees a woman who fills his needs. Then if there is a time when I fail, when I can't do and be everything, if I hurt him, he will go back to seeing me as the totally flawed one and himself as the victim. Gee, I just notced thats a huge DJ. Its my fear, I'm not sayign that is what he really thinks.

yes, he does fill my needs in other areas.

now that you recognize it is YOUR fear that is causing your feelings, maybe you can do something about the thought process that leaves you with that fear. work on that thought process and maybe the fear will diminish and next thing you know.... you are no longer feeling sad.

yup, that's me, really good at giving advice. TERRIBLE at implementing it!!!

i have the same fears as you smur. he will stay because i fill his needs but he will never actually love me or even see me.

Actually FL, I think thats me too!! <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/grin.gif" alt="" />

FL

this seems to be a common thread in the recovery process from what I read.

My H went through a perod of he wouldn't touch me with a barge pole so to speak... this was way after tests cleared me of anything and I also used protection with om ... it was more I can't stand you right now.
It didn't just stopped but sort of faded..started with just holding me at night, then just spooning while sleeping and finally SF was back.

Then I started to pull away from SF - not sure what it was I just felt I didn't want any SF - I was feeling very very guilty at this time and emotionally unstable - just burst into tears whenever.
My therapist suggested I 'grin and pretend' until I could enjoy it..... now THAT was hard. But it worked for me.

From what I hsve learned it takes 4 to 5 years for things to get back to normal, I know my H & I rushed things a bit due to his probable deployment back then and I suspect we have some issues that will come up. Again not unexpected.

I dont think there is a norm for a lot of this, each person, BS & FWS have particualr issues that overwhelm them at times.

I wonder if you H needs counselling over this. It seems to be a block, emotionally and perhaps physically for him and this is now effecting you quite naturally.
I suspect he equates the full SF with giving himself totally to you and thus making himself vulnerable for being hurt by you again in his mind. I think time may be the only thing to repair that... but his timetable may be way out of sync with yours.

Its very hard to get your H to a couselling session especially when they feel its for them. Mine refused so many times .."you broke it you fix it" which while understandable doesn't help the M.
Its been small little gains FL. Sometimes very frustrating as he expected me to 'know' what would make him feel safe.

Have you tried showing him the printed STD test results and then offer to use protection?? I did this, just handed it to him and said I want you to feel safe that I will not harm you ever again. Ok I just got a grunt but I think it helped in the long run.
As is probably known we didn't end up using protection and darling little Mikey is the result! But totally unplanned and not recommnded I think.

FL

Have you asked your H why he stays married to you ?

I really wonder.

I can;t imagine a a man having such low expectations of marriage that he would be happy with the situation you report. Unless his experiences with you have left him with such a low expectation of marriage that just the absence of infidelity and presence of 'pleasantness' is about a high a hope he can imagine right now.

I would ask him:

Why are you still married to me ?
Do you think we are as happy as we could be ?
Do you think it is possible for marriages to be happier than ours is ?
What could make our marriage happier for you ?

Questions to tease out his attitudes to YOUR marriage and marriage in general.

You need to be the uber-lovebuster avoider to have these sort of discussions though. Yo may get lots of 'I dunno's and shrugs.

but, you might just get an insight into you H's incentives.

all blessings

AW, thanks for sharing. for us, within days after d-day, he asked me if i would "help" him not be physically uncomfortable. i was happy to have the physical connection with him and was glad he asked me so i oblidged. honestly, i think it was very therapautic for me too.

its just now been 1 1/2 years and although there have been sporadic occasions of more occuring, the majority of the interaction remains one sided. again, he tells me he feels safer because he does not think he can catch anything in that manner. funny, i bearly ever read the advice columns but something today made me look at it. there was one... "can i catch STD via oral sex" answer yes. should i tell him?

bob, you asked me, why does my H want to stay married to me, yes i have asked him and his answer if very clear, for the kids. he sees no reason why we cannot keep the family intact. he does not understand what the problem is. why doesn't keeping the family together mean anything to me? why isn't that enough of a reason. and if in fact, that is not enough for me, then we have a problem.

you said: "I can;t imagine a a man having such low expectations of marriage that he would be happy with the situation you report." it is the way it has always been with us bob. and he will say it is because he never felt respect from me. and then he will cite events that occured while we dated as to why he felt disrespected. and since he felt that way, he was justified for distancing himself. but he maintains that he loves me.

in my opinion, his role model of his parents were not good. they didnt seem to really like each other especially as time went on. i did not know them while my H was growing up, his mom has told me that his dad used to drink alot and not be home much. i only knew them after my FIL was retired. and at that point, they had extremely seperate lives and they bickered CONSTANTLY.

my H used to say but deep down they love each other. well what exactly is the point of loving someone if you can't enjoy spending time with the person!!!

so the question is have i been such a horrible monster that all he wants is the absence of infidelity and presence of 'pleasantness' in order to keep the family together?

well i have an extremely hard time accepting all that blame. that is just plain wrong. i don't think he has ever truely wanted anything deeper than the absence of infidelity and the presence of pleasantness. and that is not my issue to own.

he does not mention incident after incident of things i would do on a daily basis that left him feeling disrespected. he talks about things that occured while we dated. he saw me in that manner before we married but "saw potential in me" so he married me. but he never looked at me as our marriage progressed and as i grew, he continued to choose to view me in that way.

Bob, i truely believe there was NOTHING i could have done during the majority of our marriage that would of made one bit of difference. he wanted to be distant from me and so he was. bottomline.

now do you think i am talking disrespectfully. am i going to be 2x4'd and put in my place?

obviously i have not been perfect, but i have not been a monster either. you all know the worst of me but we are talking a 17yr marriage. yes i screwed up while we were engaged and again 5yrs into the marriage and then i had a complete breakdown in 2001 and the result was 2 years and 4 months of being so out of control, so completely and totally lost until i hit a major bottom and started to climb back.

i'm rambling and this is doing me no good cuz i'm starting to feel mad and i am starting to feel entitled to forgiveness. and that makes me stop cold. i am not entitled to anything.

but if i really am not worth risking being close to, if i really am not worth forgiving and re-commiting to our marriage, shouldn't he be divorcing me?

isn't what he is doing right now, staying without wanting to make any true commitment on his part to do anything more than keep the family together, wrong?

why does he stay married to me guys? i wish someone would answer that question. cuz the only answer i get is that i'm better than nothing, and even more uglier, for financial reasons. he stays because it allows him to continue to have the lifestyle my paycheck allows him to have.

so for my kids sake and out of my love for him, i stay. and when i start to feel self-pity, i have to smack myself and remind myself i am choosing to stay out of my love for him and for the sake of the kids.

but more and more, it is getting harder and harder.

JL said to me... if this is my choice, to endure, then just endure.

obviously i'm not really that good at enduring <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

and all i am left with is pain. pain over the disappointment in myself that i cannot endure better. pain over feeling rejected 24/7.

bob, i don't want to ask him the first question, because i have and he has answered, numerous times.

but i will ask him the others:
Do you think we are as happy as we could be ?
Do you think it is possible for marriages to be happier than ours is ?
What could make our marriage happier for you ?

and i'll see if i can learn anything...

FL

How very sad. <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

I lose the ability to project empathy into stuations I do not recognise at all.

I can't imagine enduring a loveless, passionless marriage as you two seem to have endured all these years.

In my own situation, we had an increasingly crappy five years bfore squids affair, but even TWO MONTHS before her affair we sent a FANTASTIC weekend in London, passionate, fun etc etc. It wasn't the marriage either of us deserved and we both contributed to that.

Squids affair was near fatal blow to our marige nbut I think both of us have realised that we don't want that crappy marriage back. If we are going to try to rebuild why aim so low as the pre- A marriage?

So I really can't feel whats going on in your H's head. I know a person who witholds passion deliberately from their FWS in order to manipulate and punish them. Sick, warped but at least makes a kind of crippled logic.

With your H it seems he has never had any ambition for his marrige other than to be a pleasant practical framework to raise children in.

Maybe your affairs reinforced this, maybe there IS an element of 'punishing you' by witholding what he knows you desire. I dunno.

Why would an intelligent, personable man as you H seems to be tolerate greyness ?

Is there ANY part of his life that he is passionate about Fl ? The kids ? Golf, Hunting ? His car ? what ?

bob, his range of emotions if very limited. they always have been and he himself has said that as he has gotten older, the range is shrinking.

H is an intelligent and personable man.

i don't understand it either bob. i never understood it before and i doubt i ever will.

he would always tell me... married people do not need to share in common interests.

this is very true. what does a S do about that??

like JL says, my H really has been extremely consistent in his behaviour. so all i can do is change my expectations of him.

but how does a person who very much wants intimacy learn to not want it anymore? teach me that and then i'll be getting somewhere.

FL, please don't take this as offensive but...does your H show signs of mild autism or similar ?

I think you need to determine if H's passionlessness is deliberate or instinctive.

I have thought while I write this and I don;t know of any other passionless men.

I know men who are "bland" in their marrige but get hot about motorcycles, titty bars, fishing soccer and even real ale.
Both will require a different approach IMO.

Most men I know have a passion for something.

I have just read " wild at heart" by ohn Eldredge. It wa a wonderful read for me, as it helps VALIDATE and EXPLICATE my own passions and motivations as a MAN made of WILDERNESS dust, not the sand of Eden.

But I just don;t see your H in that book.

For a man to be fulfilled he needs :

A battle to fight
An adventure to live
A beauty to save

And most of us carry a WOUND delivered from our own fathers. This is a highly personal and introspective thing, but is REAL IME.

Your H has the newspaper, fish on fridays and a bit of a cuddle every now and then. And that seems to BE ENOUGH!.

If we assume that Wild at Heart desrcibes the template for Christian men - maybe ALL men - something is either DEEPLY suppressed in your H or something is malfunctioning.

I would recommend the book, FL, but you might be saddened by it <img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/frown.gif" alt="" />

hmm. Instinctively or deliberatly passionless? What you think FL?

oh, you asked what he is passionate with.

golf. he wishes he was better at it though.

he says he wants to make furniture, and maybe open a store. but he is very slow in moving towards that goal. and now he has both kids gone all day, everyday (up until this year, my son would come home for lunch, now in middle school, that is no longer an option). he has made some things, and they are very nice. i beautiful book stand and an even more beautiful mirror with a wood frame. he likes arts and crafts style. but he is not so passionate about it that he works at it consistently.

he enjoys being a photographer and he is very good at it. but he does not aggressively "go after" more clients. he has been a freelancer for more than 10 years and the client base he has is a credit to his talent.

if he tried, i'm sure he could have many more jobs than he has. but at the same time, it has been good for the kids to have him home. and he has liked being home for them. i didn't realize i was choosing to be the main breadwinner. it just happened. at one point i worked part time but my full time salary is much more appreciated. and now... i don't know if the company would even allow it.

how would i even begin to approach that question bob??

in all the years i have known him, i have not seen him be really passionate about anything. i can't possible be to blame for that, can i?

and on the flip side, there is me. overly passionate about too many things. i can't seem to let ANY opportunity to get by. i have always been that way, in college i worked 3 jobs, i just didn't want to ever turn anything down. i guess for me, it was not just an internal passion but manditory. i didn't have parents who "took care of me" i started paying my own way in HS and i completely paid for my own college (5yrs at a good college, earned my masters in 5yrs on an accelerated program).

i know one of his complaints has been i do too much, i never say no to anyone. and that is true. my reason... i want to really live, i want to enjoy every moment. and even more, i want to have a good impact on this earth. i watch a movie about a person, lets say a teacher, that has really done an outstanding job touching the lives of their students and i want to be just like that. i tutor, but someday i still hope to teach. and when i do, i want to be the teacher that supports the theatre group. my kids take classes at the local theatre and i LOVE to get involved there. my DD and i are co-chairing the props crew for the holiday show. we co-charied customes last march when my son was in the production of Ramona (he was Howie, Romona's best friend) we had such an awesome time. we still talk about it!!! we try to get dad to join us, he won't. he says he will be the official audience member instead. in the last production, i was on the boys side of the stage, my H could of been there with me, we needed two adults because at one point we have to dress 2 kids (my son being one of them) in tuxedoes in 30 sec flat!! but he just would not do it. i have already tried to ask him about the holiday show, but he will not. it's hard because i see a lot of couples that do enjoy the theatre together.

i'm the type of person that likes to dance at concerts, sing in the rain and roller skate. ok, i am finally now getting a bit old to roller skate.

we are such opposites, i don't know how to reconcile the differences in us.

and it is not like i let my outside activities keep me away from home. he is out more often than i am (goes drinking many thurs nights with a friend). but sitting at home watching tv makes me nuts. i literally have a hard time sitting still. i'm ok when we watch a movie or a show, but night after night to just channel surf.... i can't do that.

FL2:

It is often very hard for me to read your posts. There is just so much sadness in them . . .

Here is my limited advice. I know that you made the decision to stop [email]wh@ring[/email] yourself in trade for the affection from men. That was a very wise thing to do. You haven't gone far enough. This needs to be applied to your marriage too. Your husband is treating you like a [email]wh@re.[/email] What do these one-sided OS encounters do for you? Do you feel special and cherished? I hardly think so.

It seems that you are committed to staying in this marring no matter how far the emotional abandonment becomes. You are doing it, at least in part, to spare your kids from a divorce. That is your choice and I respect it. That being the case, and considering your husbands actions, you are making a business decision. Threat it as such. Friends without benefits. If after a certain time he agrees to treat you with respect and affection then reevaluate the benefits clause. Stop this one sided OS thing . . . it is degrading to even read about it let alone to live it.

I am a FWS and I know all about the guilt and the self-loathing that comes from that. I despise myself for what I did, for what I was. I am not HIM anymore. I am someone different. So are you. The woman that did all those things is dead and gone. Keep her buried. Stop punishing yourself for your past mistakes. I'm not religious, but I seem to remember a story that comes to mind. I think it was Jesus talking. He listened to a woman’s confession of adultery. Do you remember what he said to her? Something about arise and sin no more. That is all you can do F . . .


Please change this situation before this gets any worse. You’re somehow good enough to give him OS but not enough to cherish and love? What would you advise your daughter if she came to you with a similar story? Would you tell her to just take it because she deserves to be treated that way because she committed adultery? You are a precious creature of God’s creation. . . start acting that way.