Update.

I may be repeating myself, for those of you who know my situation, for those that don't....my WS's OW is a co-worker....he is a 'resource' person....and she's a teacher...at our DS10's school!

Today was DS10's first day at school....and so you might not be surprised to learn that I don't really look forward to going to the school.....the effort I make is totally for the sake of DS10... I managed to speak to Director of school back in June to make sure that there was no chance that OW would be DS10's teacher....and have some peace of mind this summer...because, believe it or not, that was a possibility for this year!

...anyway...this morning...I met a few familiar faces....and again realized that I am somehow 'moving on'....because before I was never sure I could talk about the 'circumstances' of my separation to other parents without the risk of 'breaking down'....this year....walking to the bus....I was quite comfortable being 'honest' with one of the other parents....who didn't quite appreciate what was happening 'behind the scenes' among the school personnel..... the 'shame' I seem to have felt before about being WS's S seems to have diminished....as I take less and less responsibility for WS's actions and its consequences... trusting that the people I choose to confide in will come to their own conclusions...and it was fine with me... as I know longer want to 'hide' and feel a 'complice to the crime'....

well...when I dropped off DS10 at school this morning....got a glimpse of WS in the schoolyard...don't think he saw me.... and it didn't really bother me too much...he was quite far....

...however, this afternoon when I went to pick up DS10 in the school yard....lo and behold....saw WS and OW walking on the sidewalk side by side...good thing there was some distance between us!

....I know the feeling Pio had when he discovered OM's cards that G was keeping.... I am a very 'visual' person.... so seeing WS and OW together, even just walking side by side, really through me off..... this one sighting seems to be causing a major withdrawal of my LoveBank....

...once again confirming the theory that maybe, if and when WS 'wakes up'....it will be the BS who will no longer be 'available'......

...although I was expecting it to happen sooner or later.... wasn't quite expecting it this first day!

....I know...I know....this is 'peanuts' compared to what the BS goes through on D-day....but believe me.....in the longrun.....these 'small' incidents can do a lot of damage to a LoveBank!

I'm glad that you can talk about the situation without feeling responsible. That came fairly quickly for me. The more I did it, the easier it became.

I'm sorry that you had to see them "together". But at least that is over now.

I can't believe that the school doesn't do anything. Who wants to send their child to a school where one of the teachers hits on a student's parent?

Sorry Luna - I can't condone keeping your children in the school where adultery is flaunted in their young impressionable faces.

You have to be the adult - and though it will disrupt their lives to put them in a new school, it must be done - or you are implicit in your agreement that this openly adulterous relationship is normal.

Luna,

I have to back Kayla here...because of your DS10...you know that struck, scissored, cut up feeling that visual brought you? What do you think it did to him?

Does to him?

Find out and acknowledge his feelings, thoughts and desires. Find out if he's brave-facing it, calling it normal, casual, no biggie...when he's getting emotionally mutilated, humiliated, an accomplice to the crime by being a witness...or not.

Worth anything you have to do to stop that visual around your son. Changing schools, locales, or going all the way up to the highest school authority there is...no accomplice there, Luna.

You're finding your self-respect in sharing reality with others...choosing to live in truth...no shame there...being honest has an immediate reward inside you...

And yes, this is from someone who recently couldn't tell reality from fearful fantasy...and you helped me see it.

Right back at you, Luna.

LA

Hi Believer,



That's exactly what I told the Principal in June....as parents, to whom are we trusting our children to?.... I gotta tell you....I did not hold back...and I made it clear to him that if at one time I was proud of the school, not so anymore, and that I would not be recommending it to any other parent...

...the Principal was very sympathetic...said that he had already made sure that DS10 was not placed in OW's class...however, the administration considers this a 'private matter'...that their 'hands' were tied....and that in fact.....were they to make an issue of it.... they may have the teacher's union after them for meddling into a member's 'private life'...

... I recommended that in one of their 'professional days' a workshop on how to maintain appropriate professional boundaries among the personnel seemed to be in order! ...I was really mad!

...and I now see that I am much more comfortable talking about my situation to a 'larger circle' (because I don't have a problem with my close friends....I was lucky to have some in my corner..to help pick up the pieces.... of ME!) .....so I will not hesitate to let other parents, who care to know, what the 'facts' are

Hi Kayla,


I have thought about it...and actually still think about it....the pros and cons of changing schools for DS10....and as I told the Principal...it's what I would have definitely done were he not able to assure me that at least OW would not be his teacher.....because at some level, I hesitate and wonder if it would not somehow further penalizing him....having to make new friends...having to go further away from home....because of his dad's choices! ...he doesn't have much left before he moves on to high school.

WS has moved out and has chosen not to live with OW (I believe his explanation for this was to help prolong and keep alive the 'romantic' feelings he had for OW...to me...it looks more like WS wanting to 'compartamentalize' and deal with boys and OW separately...or maybe giving it time to 'legitimize it'...who knows!) ...

...however...I know he exposes the boys to OW...I am sure he has her over for dinner sometimes....probably has numerous phone conversations with her....something I really can't control....

To compensate...I do discuss the situation with both of my boys...not a lot....here and there....just to get a 'feel' of how they are doing...how they see the situation... without putting too much focus on WS....do they wonder why I am not in contact with WS? ...their frustrations with a situation that obliges them to move back and forth between mom and dad...

...both of the boys are fully aware that the separation is a consequence of WS's choices....and what my position is about it...I did not sugarcoat that as WS would have liked me to..... in fact.... knowing that DS15 has friends whose parents are separated but are into 'friendly co-parenting' I was worried about how he perceived my PLAN B and I asked DS15 about how he felt about my choice NOT to see WS....without hesitation DS15 told me....'mom...I would have done the same thing!'...

..I don't know if WS is realizing it yet...but I think his A has a VERY high price.....among the many things, should both boys still love him because he is their dad.... it looks like he may have lost their respect...

but...if, on one hand, the boys can't figure out where their dad is coming from....to balance that out, I make sure that my position is clear....because they are young now...but as adults they will be expected to make choices in their lives..

...for example, I hope that should they be one day subjected to the emotional and psychological abuse of an A.....that they not tolerate it for fear of being 'alone' or for any other reason....both are watching me put one foot before the other....seeing how I am learning to move forward inspite of the uncertainties of life...

The fact is....the boys have two parents....but no longer have a family....and they do have to deal with a major 'loss' at a very young age.... I would like to be at a place where I am strong enough to help them deal with all the feelings this will provoke!

Hi LA,



I am LA....and I work very hard at 'acknoweldging' their feelings....no judging....no telling them how they should feel.... because if I am having a hard time....imagine the challenge of it all for a child and an adolescent, who have not yet fully developped tools to deal with their emotions...

...I try to take it as an opportunity to help them (and me) develop 'coping' skills... it forces me to be very watchful of how I am 'parenting'..... I see it as a good sign when the boys are comfortable in inviting their friends for sleepovers...meals... I include them as much as I can in finding solutions for 'functional' problems around the house.....I am trying really hard to allow my boys to not take responsibility when they tend to want to fill the 'void' left by WS moving out.....

...I may not always do a good job of it....but my current top priority is the 'healing' process of myself and the boys.....and the feedback I am getting from the boys tells me that I am on the right track...inspite of some errors....

...when my DS10 comes home in knots.....and through the evening I work with him to help him unravel the knots....and by the time he goes to bed...I can see a smile on his face...he can give me numerous kisses and hugs....tells me he loves me....and goes to sleep in a 'peaceful' state.... I don't think I could feel a higher sense of satisfaction had I climbed Mount Everest to the top!



...you got it, LA....and I intend to keep doing it....



..it's what I love about the Board the most...people helping each other....

Sorry for the long post....guess I was 'chatty' tonight.

...and while I am at it, I will take this opportunity to again remind everyone here to NOT UNDERESTIMATE their contributions.

As far as I am concerned...please believe me when I say that the support of this group is the one SINGLE MAJOR CONSISTENT contributing element of my continued personal recovery...and I thank you all!

bumped...because I am not sure anybody reads threads that are waaaay back on page 10!

Luna,

I've been thinking about your post...and only now thought of something to contribute.

I believe children look to their parents, and what they choose is what we believe is normal...even the unnatural, what they believed was wrong, will be normalized in their minds, in conflict to their intial belief, if they see their parents doing it.

I can really see how you are upping your sons' EQ...which is incredibly important. On the other hand, I see you determining consequences, which gives me hesitation. You know far better than I what your YS' non-friends are talking about at school...as well as his friends...what causes his knots, repeatedly, and if taking the knots is crossing his boundaries or not.

I guess I am asking what is reality here...no shoulds involved. Saying your son should not have to bear the consequences of his father's actions...well, wouldn't that go with seeing him with his AP often? Normalizing what goes against his beliefs? That's a consequence of not changing schools...even as changing schools would be...how do we weight such decisions? I don't know. I don't have that experience.

I will share with you a bad decision I made when my OS was going into 6th grade...not A related. At the time, there were magnet schools all over our area...for grades 4th through 6th. He had been in a Math and Science magnet school and at the end of his 5th grade, had finally thrived...got the Principal's award and best in Math...he was thrilled. I got the notion to switch him to the Arts magnet, to round him out before the mandatory merging of 7th grade...then the junior high of 8th and 9th...really bad decision on my part.

He did well in dance and acting...bombed in school...it was awful for him...missing his friends, didn't feel the academics compared to the other school.

How about that...I was typing this and he showed up. Unexpectedly. So I asked him about your son (they were near the same age when I did this)...explained the circumstances...he said, Ask her if she asked him his preference, while she was totally neutral. If you offered him this decision, either which way would be acceptable to you, that you weren't invested either way (this was emphasized a lot)...because his fully capable of making this decision himself and OS thought if he did, he could live BETTER with the consequences, having a say in them. And that say having no blame for his choice...the neutrality ensures either way, you're okay...and he'll be okay, because he had a say.

Which led us to talk about the importance of being neutral...my firstborn is an emotional caretaker...he's working on not being that way, with his wife, with me...he's going to be a father in December...and I had the opportunity, because of your post, to talk about this with him, go back, own my poor decision, which led to both of us examining possibilities of spousification (a pattern in my family) of children, and how that may be affecting him today.

Which led to knowing more about his beliefs, thoughts, feelings and perception. Always good in my book, as you know.

So, thank you for posting and having this situation...believe it or not...because I believe your honesty just enhanced my life with my own son...widened my mind and experience.

LA

Hi LA,

Just 'searched' my thread wanting to do an update, and noticed your post! Thank you for taking the time.



I agree with you LA....WS through this whole process is attempting to 'normalize' and 'legitimize' A with OW.....while I on the other hand....particularly with my option to go to PLAN B....am obviously trying to convey the opposite...that it is not 'normal'..... but the boys are not being fooled....I remember soon after WS moved out, one of YS's comments: 'mom, dad is acting as if nothing has really happened'....my interpretation was: dad is destroying my family, the only world I have known, and he's acting as if there's nothing to it, going about 'business as usual'...


You're right, LA, I need to go to the 'source' and I am going to try and make YS comfortable enough to give me an idea of how he feels about being in the same school where WS and OW work....what are other children saying to him, etc..... even see how he would feel about changing schools.... and if that would make it better for him inspite of the challenges of a new school...and go from there...



...that's just it..LA....either way...I feel YS would be penalized....and there is no way of getting around it...I guess that's why it's said that 'children suffer the most in these situations...and are innocent victims'....but I think 'probing' my YS about his feelings may give me a better sense of what it may mean to him staying at the school... I certainly am making the effort of dealing with the school as a trigger for his sake....wouldn't want it to be for nothing! It won't be easy....as I have noticed that both boys tend to want to 'protect' me.....

I already knew who YS's teacher would be this year (because Principal confirmed it making sure that at least OW would not be his teacher...because then for sure I would have him change schools!)....so..I asked YS how he felt about that teacher if he were to have her.....and did he know why I would not agree to have OW be his teacher.... I know I was taking him out of his comfort zone a bit... but YS managed to blur out.....'Yeah, I know, mom, you don't have to explain'.....



I know what you mean, LA, even a parents' best intention doesn't really make much difference.....but....I accepted a long time ago that if I chose to be parent I also chose to make mistakes....and had to live with them.....that doesn't excuse us from not trying as best as we can to get the 'tools' necessary to the best job we can at it! I appreciate your sharing this with US!



Geesh...LA...that's exactly my line of thought about this....and my objective in probing YS..... because I would seriously consider taking 'whatevever' option YS would prefer and what HE would think would be better for him to deal with! ....because as your son said...if YS feels he had a 'say' in it...even if nothing changes.....it may help him to live better with the 'consequences' either way......Thank your son for me, would you, LA, and thank you for asking him about it.




Well, LA...one thing I can say about you....you don't seem to miss any opportunity that comes along and invest yourself in, as you say, 'widening your mind and experience'....BRAVO!

LA....you are a real inspiration! Thank you...I really appreciate your feedback..

As they say 'two heads is better than one'.... hummmm....or maybe.... 'one head and a group'.... (lest those 'reading' take offense)

I am going to have to go....but will be back for a short update for 'comments'.....

Also, LA, when you have a chance.....do you think you could 'enlighten' me about the term 'spousification'?

Update, and would appreciate comments as well.

A quick summary: WS and I do not have anything legal in place. I decided to stay in our home and WS took an apt. that we owe and used to rent out about 15 mins away. Our 'home' is actually made up of several apts. I occupy the main floor with basement and yard, but we also have a couple of apt. just above that we rent out. So, WS and I are co-owners of the property.

WS 'used' to be the handyman and did the maintenance, and right now the tenants do call HIM directly for any 'handyman' work they need done in their apts, as usual. However, since I am in PLAN B I am slowly taking over the 'maintenance' duties related to the main floor I occupy (both inside and outside). The three outside galleries the property has have been neglected since WS moved out last summer...so I was determined to do something about that this year before the summer ended. This past weekend I did about 4-5 hrs of scrapping off the old paint and about 2-3 hrs of painting.... and I still haven't finished! But I was quite proud of myself...even an unidentified neighbour across the street gave me a 'thumbs up' when I finally ended my day at 7pm although I paid dearly these last two days as I did not take the time to warm my 'muscles' before....and took them a bit by surprise....

Obviously, during the 'switch' of our boys, WW noticed... and I guess must have been somewhat surprised.....I was 'infringing' on his handywork duties.... (although had he wanted to do something about it WS had all of last summer and this summer - until now - Sept!)

He left me a message telling me that, apparently, one of our tenants needed some electrical work done upstairs... and in the meantime....did I want him to share and help with the painting of the galleries?

I am in PLAN B... but he is still co-owner and is responsible for the maintenance of the property as an investment.... I think I will take him up on the offer.

Does anyone see any problems with this?.....

Edited by Luna (to keep info. straight for myself) adding part of post in TKO thread:
Just for your information....my WS would very much like to see the two of us do 'friendly co-parenting'..... and hopes that 'time' will do the trick.....and not have to give up OW!

My position is actually the opposite...as you know.... as long as OW is in the picture.... I am in PLAN B and am slowly learning how to manage 'without him'.....and continue to remove myself further and further away from the triangle....

I think the fact that I am learning to be 'independent' even with the handywork....and, since he can now receive emails, my info. messages previously done via phone messages have now switched to email messages only...

...I wonder if WS is starting to realize that....things continue to NOT go as he planned?

..and I have not finished.....

...I have also decided that on OS's 16th birthday this December (he has been asking me when would he be able to just stay with me since WS moved out)....I will give him the choice to reduce going to his dad's place to every other weekend (right now we alternate one week each for both boys)....inspite of it all....I know that WS loves the boys very much.... in fact....if one day the fog lifts... I think that will be the hardest to accept... the enormous damage and sacrifice his 'selfishness' has cost the boys!

...and come next summer.....on the 2-yr anniversary of WS moving out....if I don't have a clear 'sign' from WS that the fog is clearing.... I will be looking into moving into a plan D!

Luna,

Spousification...when a parent makes a spouse of one of their children. They confide about their marriage, work, what is important to them...say they feel sad because the other partner is or isn't doing something. It is as obvious as bashing their partners, though it can be--if only your father would make enough money, I could buy you that, Johnny.

Usually, this lead the child to feel special, more grown-up than they are...a false maturity and especially with first born children, it enhances their feeling responsibility where they do not have control...

They naturally like and hate this position...they feel responsible for making their parent happy, sad, etc...and choose their actions based on possible response, not their own wants or needs. You can see how this then seems good to them, nurturing, caretaking, even compassionate...when it is exploitive and damaging. They get good attention for being good and admiring, appreciating, accepting and approving to meet the ENs of the parent...and expect those in return...but they are children. When they get anger, resentment, frustration in response, then these emotions feel larger, deeper, maybe more devastating than they might to a non-spousified child...one who is figuring who they are, how they are separate, equal, sense of self and boundaries.

Spousification crosses the adult/child boundary...and so says to a child there are no boundaries...because boundaries are not being exampled or respected (those of the parent or the child), and boundary enforcements are non-existent.

Child grows up caretaking others' thoughts, feelings and beliefs...they are the fixers, the pleasers...giving to get, and dealing with a self-image they created, having thrown out their selves to get to be the spouse of their parent instead of the child learning who they really are.

As you saw in my FOO thread, to this day I have a deep urge to control my parents' stuff...what is theirs, I take to be about myself...even now that I KNOW that's disrespectful...and have successfully eliminated it in my marriage and with my children.

It is a strong issue in my life...so spousification is important to know...the origins are far reaching...and are passed down through the generations...normalized...unconsciously carried on.

My OS was spousified (I'm making up that word) from birth...unwed mother...him and me...my sole focus and attention on him, and when his brother came along, he was appropriately split...caretake him also, or feel ursurped...when I didn't spousify MS, he reassumed the caretaking role feeling more validated in it...until I met my DH, who became my real spouse...which left my OS lost...

The ramifications we've identified is his rage...he has felt rage from a hair trigger all his life...he's been working on it for over a year now and seems to be gaining ground...but it flutters just under his demeanor...can be launched readily, right past his awareness. His rage is deeply consistent and nearly three-dimensional to him...like another self inside, to be controlled, watched, focused on yet not...so that it isn't fed by direct sunlight.

Mine was rejection...lots of resentment stored from feeling rejected...when I was doing what I did before...taking care and being responsible for my parents' feelings...and it stopped working for me when I asserted my own choices and did not think of them first.

My father was a firstborn...and I don't really know any details for spousification...however, he has acted out in that regard through alcoholism and was a serial cheater for (to my knowledge), 40 years.

My mother witnessed great spousification...her older sister stayed and took care of her father all her life...didn't marry...was the mother figure to my own mother (theirs died in at my mother's birth), and to the oldest daughter, as well.

Passed down...and I'm sure had I the wherewithal to find out about my grandparents' parents, there would be similar patterns.

Pretty fascinating...not a guaranteed predictor...many other factors, too...very much made sense to me as far as my trouble with enmeshments...with my folks, previously in my marriage, and heck, with friends and even strangers.

Now...what I see as a problem with your Plan B if you let that much light in by communicating him regarding maintenance. I think it goes to consequences...your WH chose to leave his wife, family, all he had acquired and essentially earned for a fantasy...he abandoned his "roles" in reality...one of them was handyman...which gave him admiration, appreciation, acceptance, authority and approval, probably in small doses (we get this with our work, where we're paid...but this role was different in that it was a delayed-gratification investment, hits at a different level, slowly, over time...cumulatively potent)...

All this you built together...choose together...half and half...what are the reasonable consequences (natural) involved in no longer being half of what you did together? Check your reality carefully...your goal...because you began filling his role...maybe hiring an electrician would be living more in truth (he pays half or not) than including him in what he abandoned?

You're building yourself, Luna...with every complaining muscle (and my own flinched for your soreness)...your self-respect and esteem, because you are doing this, expanding yourself to do what wasn't your role...and if you're doing it without resentment, then I believe it's part of thriving. If you both owned the property and managed it from afar, then you would pay the handyman to live onsite...well, WH is not living there...you are onsite...and managing, fixing and maintaining...whether you do it yourself or not. Bringing that reality home to WH (not through words but actions) so that your Plan B stays dark...and I object to voicemail, emails or any direct contact, as you know...what is more truthful to you? More real?

Probing, btw, didn't work on my sons, per se. Being present with them, without distractions (tv, video games, movies)...while playing a game, taking a walk, watching a sunset..those were the spill times for them. And usually, as they grew into their teens, nothing got said until after 10pm (oh, those tired days!)...and I'm reaping the rewards of being available for late night talks because they still share who they are...

Just not my YS...LOL!

The older two sons.

When I probed, they withdrew. I had to share what I was thinking and believing (left the feelings part out mostly)...passing on my "ideas" and what I was excited about...whether it was something I was writing, or had seen that day, or a new concept I heard....what did they think? What did they believe?

I'm sure this is the way you do it...I just had a flashback to how much my WH and sons said they hated my "digging" which was probing.

Sounds like you're doing well, Luna. I trust your decisions and am only trying to define your goal, your premise...so you act from your code, not his possible response. Something different is what I'm going for...because I don't see how this WH stays so darn wayward with an amazing wife like you right there!!! And I didn't even get to MOTHER...

<img src="/ubbt/images/graemlins/laugh.gif" alt="" />

LA

Hi LA....thanks for your quick reply....and for your time...and for being there!

I will have to read your explanation for 'spousification' a few times....so I can get it....because I suspect I may have 'played it' as a child at some level...I will explain in time....which is probably why I am more sensitive and being watchful that my boys don't take on more 'responsibility' than they should.... I think that, being 10 and 15, they already have their hands full..and particularly now ....



LA, I see where you are coming from.... here is my thinking..... until a financial settlement is put in place...which we don't have right now.... he legally has certain responsibilities and certain rights in our 'investments'....not much less like those he has as a parent towards our two boys, although much more permanent and of immensely higher value....but both were chosen together..... now....in a much more ineffective way.....both are handled separately.....

...yes...WS has left a 'void' with the handywork.... which I am partly trying to fill myself wherever I can (and I do have to watch this closely to not overdo it), and if not, use 'hired' help..... I am also trying to be financially realistic... I cannot do 'everything' and cannot afford to use 'hired' help for everything either, without putting, not only WS, but myself in a vulnerable financial situation... which sooner or later translates to having less for boys'.....

Ideally, we would be more effective as parents were we to work together as parents within the context of a family..... WS's choices are making this impossible.... so we are 'parenting' separately and less effectively.....

...how to similarly do this with regards to our 'investments'...... and not necessarily compromise my choice to NOT be part of triangle WS has put in place...

...the contribution he is offering to do were I to consent (and I am not sure if legally I could refuse) is only a drop in the bucket compared to what he 'used to do'....and don't think it would send a 'mixed' message....

...one of my objectives is to not try to take away 'responsibilities' from WS... which is one of the reasons I have not taken the route of full custody of the boys....I want them to have a father....no matter how imperfect he is.....because I think it would be to the detriment of our boys to totally have him out of their lives.....

...but rather, I want to encourage WS to respect even more his responsibilities... because an A to me..... is also a means to avoid one's responsibilities......going from the responsibilities of a family to a 'single life'....at least this is the case for WS.... knowing a bit about WS's baggage... I would be 'playing' his game by doing so....

...one of WS's challenges in life, at least when I was with him, was lack of self-worth and self-esteem..... constantly looking for 'confirmation' from others that he was either WORTHY, or not WORTHY and be a victim..... which is why I don't want to 'remove' responsibilities from him.... but rather to the contrary.....I want him to continue fulfilling his responsibilities as much as he can...inspite of the fact that he has moved out..... in fact, what I would really like is for him to not be afraid to recommit to the responsabilities of a 'family'

This is what I learned.....for me a 'family' means security, a 'home', a soft spot to count on, nothing 'unpredictable'..... learning about WS's FOO family life I learned it could be otherwise.... and so now believe that for WS a 'family life' evoked other emotions....that he has not dealt with....and it has come back to 'bite him'

...WS had an alcoholic father... from comments of other members of his family and WS....physical abuse of mother has been 'hinted' at.... all the children have been affected by it as adults..... and so I learned that family life could also mean a very 'unpredictable' home atmosphere, based solely on father's mood... who constantly 'denied' being drunk even though apparently one could smell alcohol the minute he entered the house.... everyone constantly walking on eggs..... I do believe that it must affect a child's developing 'nervous' system... and what should be considered 'not normal'.....the anxiety of the unpredictableness of an alcoholic father.....becomes the norm..... and leaves a 'mark'.....I do believe for WS....the A is simply another means to avoid facing 'issues' that he needs to face sooner or later or never!..... only I cannot help him with it now....I will have to trust him to make his own choices and decisions...!


I know....my PLAN B could be darker...I have gone from voicemail to email....which for me is better... unfortunately.... no suitable 'intermediary' in sight for now....but if one of the objectives of PLAN B is for a BS to thrive and 'detach' from WS....it is sufficiently dark to have a beneficial effect on me towards that end.... and as far as 'actions' go.....my trip with the boys to NYC .... my leaving bags of his clothes to take back with him....my painting the gallery....my refusing to meet with him for 'friendly co-parenting'.... I do believe are sending a 'clear message' of what my boundary is if he wants to maintain ANY kind of R with me...and are consistent with my PBL....

LA....thanks for the 'heads up' about probing....



....you see LA.....I chose to love my S....in the same way I choose to love my boys, inspite of what they do, are or will be.... WS, on the other hand, seems to have always felt he needed to 'earn' my love..... he didn't 'get it'....or at least I was not able to communicate to him that he only had 'to be'..... life couldn't be that simple now, could it?

...LovingAnyway.... you're name says it best!

...I will give credit where it is due....I did and do have a person in my life that taught me to 'love anyway'..... by what she did and does.....my MOM!

If you stay 'tuned'.... sooner or later....my talking about my MOM is not far off!

Thank you for being my 'sounding board' LA... I really really appreciate it!

Well... I guess in a nutshell... I have come to the conclusion that until assets between WS and myself are not 'settled' legally.....I intend to deal with the maintenance issue of our co-owned property with WS in the same way I am obliged to deal with him about the boys and financial matters... after 20 yrs of being and working 'together'... like with our boys....both myself and WS know what 'needs' to be done....we will 'share' maintenance responsibilities in the same way we 'share' responsibilities about the boys and finances....although it is now done 'separately'.....

I don't think it compromises my PLAN B.... as long as we don't see each other and don't talk to each other while OW is in the picture..... because as Pio said in another thread, dealing with the maintenance issue is a 'mechanics' issue..... because as he so very well pointed out... the most important work for me needs to be and happen 'between the ears'.....

...actually...by switching from voicemail messages to email to communicate 'essential info.' I feel like I have gone somewhat 'darker'.....

...we are not doing any 'friendly co-parenting' by a longshot as WS would like...on the other hand...both myself and WS seem to have established a way of dealing with issues, whether it be about the boys, financial and now maintenance issues, that seem to be as effective and as 'mutually respectful' as can be GIVEN THE CIRCUMSTANCES...

I realize that the one 'common thread'....tying WS and myself together... I guess for always..... really is the boys...inspite of the circumstances and WS's choices... both of us love these two boys very very much.... and I really don't think WS is very proud of himself about the consequences on the boys and in what situation it has placed the boys....(like, asking them to move back and forth each week... no longer being part of a 'family'...not having parents that 'work together').... even though it may not be enough for him to recommit to family......I guess one could say...given the fact that he is a WS, he is doing the best he can.....

....I am just trying to be 'realistic'....for now, WS cannot be something he is not..... which is why I need to protect myself so that I can be a 'parent' that the boys can count on....as I believe the boys 'mistrust' somewhat their dad...who has become 'unpredictable'....and PLAN B is doing that for me... as WS is taking less and less of my 'thinking' time....

One year ago...'chaos' reined in our home.... one year later.... there is concrete evidence that some 'serenity' has been regained on which the boys can count on at least the time they spend with me.... 'family' friends drop by on a regular basis and join us for supper.... the boys invite over friends to play with...to share supper with us.... to sleep over..... they enjoy spending time at 'home'....and to me these are all good 'signs'..

yes...without S there...there is a void....but we are 'managing' to live with it....cope with it...accept it....as best we can!

Hi Luna,

Just caught up on your thread. Very interesting. I have a somewhat different opinion about your WS doing the handy-work.

I think he gets cake-eating units from helping. It assuages his guilt about hurting you (see I still help her when she needs it.....) and makes him still feel like a part of the family by going back into that "role".

I say: NO way! If he wants to get the chance to be the good guy and help out when the family home is in need of repair, then he should BE the good guy and LIVE in the family home.

DONT LET HIM.

My suggested response: Dont respond. Dont say no or why not, just dont respond to him about the issue. BE DARK! Make him wonder...make him FIND his place.

Hi Ahuman,

Yes...I agree....it assuages his guilt by 'helping'.... but it isn't just a 'residential' property.... we have tenants... to whom we are both responsible ...and I don't see it as any different than sharing the responsibility over parenting....WS may even have 'legal' rights over this....

...taken to the extreme, WS taking care of two boys on alternating weeks could be considered cake-eating.... like....see, I am 'doing my PART, what's the problem?'

I did notice that the switch from voicemail to email messages seems to have affected WS....my messages are getting shorter and shorter as 'routine' re boys is more and more in place.. but WS was hoping things would go the other way!.... he wanted to be 'meeting and discussing'.....boy...was he wrong on that point... I think part of his fantasy was to maintain a relationship with me and thought it would be a 'sure thing' because of the boys.... I can imagine him thinking that we could share meals together, outings with the boys, visit the grandparents.... even if my PLAN B could be darker....it's dark enought to really 'bust' his bubble!

I definitely see my sending out the message 'I will and can manage by myself if I have to'...to which he may be reacting by insisting on helping.... but it's in no way 'stopping' the message.... I took boys to NYC....I plan to paint rooms in the house (and there he will definitely NOT help)...I have taken over 'supervising' projects in the house that have been initiated but not finished....been doing some 'cleaning' and have left bagful of clothes for him to take back... been taking 'charge' of the 'workshop' in our basement.... which had always been 'his space'....

When DS hits 16 this December, I intend to give him the option to only go visit his dad for one weekend every two weeks....this way OS won't be doing as much 'going back and forth' as now, which he hates....yet still keep 'in touch' with dad...and more importantly....not totally leave DS10 to be the only one 'moving back and forth'..... and I don't think WS is expecting this...and I am sure OS will take me up on the offer!

....I really see a switch happening at the one year mark....I am gaining more and more 'confidence' on being on my own... and WS is becoming more more aware of 'negative' consequences that he had not foreseen....but should have expected, really!.... and who knows how things are going with OW...that's a whole other 'can of worms'!

I don't have much to report.

Really only bumping thread just so I won't have to 'search' for it from too far back.

The few 'additional' comments WS has made over and above the necessary re 'transfer' of the boys confirm that he is still a WS...

...and, yes, on occasion continues to propose his 'help'...to which I stay DARK and do not reply...and, yes, I know he is doing it most likely to either assuage his guilt or wanting to 'inch in' with his proposition of 'friendly co-parenting'...in which I am not interested in AT ALL!

If you need to catch my attention...these days I am hanging around with the TKO group....

Thinking of you, Luna...wondering if you're closer to being able to do the Owning All Your Villagers exercise the rest of the way.

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LA

Hi everybody,

...this is just to keep some 'chronological' handle on events..... following thread is re WS's FAILED attempt at getting me to break PLAN B.....

http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...e=0#Post3128340

...and I would also like to 'keep track' of this thread on Romantic Affairs....as I believe my WS is having one....and as RA raise the fogtalk to a whole new level!
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http://www.marriagebuilders.com/ubbt/sho...873#Post3128688